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Thread: Need Help In Evaluating Friends Wrecked Super Cub.

  1. #1
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Need Help In Evaluating Friends Wrecked Super Cub.

    A friend's Super Cub got wrecked by another and there is a debate about it's worth. It is an early 1950s Super Cub, ground up restoration in 1994 to the bare frame, 1600 hrs on the engine, basic radio only, all the standard mods and built very light on purpose. What was this Super Cub worth prior to the accident? Thanks.
    Steve Pierce

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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Buying or Selling

  3. #3
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    He needs to replace the airplane which was totally destroyed. No insurance.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Thats tough. Depends how it was taken care of?

    Mods?

    Really need to list the mods and equipment.

  5. #5
    SteveE's Avatar
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    Do you still have my appraisal? That might help.

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    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Re: Need Help In Evaluating Friends Wrecked Super Cub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
    A friend's Super Cub got wrecked by another and there is a debate about it's worth. It is an early 1950s Super Cub, ground up restoration in 1994 to the bare frame, 1600 hrs on the engine, basic radio only, all the standard mods and built very light on purpose. What was this Super Cub worth prior to the accident? Thanks.
    Steve, tough situation! What condition was the fabric? What kind of "Curb Appeal" at time of wreck?

    I could throw numbers out there, but without a look at the fabric, it won't make sense.

    Good Luck on this one! D

  7. #7
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Typical Super Cub, no cream puff just a good airplane.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
    Typical Super Cub, no cream puff just a good airplane.
    Sounds similar to DW's old cub.

    Tim

  9. #9
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I'll reword the question a bit. Your airplane is tied down and someone runs into it. What is a fair amount to make it right. Something else to take into account in my opinion is the time without an airplane and cost and time to the hunt for a replacement.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

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    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Try calling an insurance adjuster? They probably have pulse on it.....

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    worth

    If these 2 guys are friends and want to stay that way I would say they shop around for a suitable replacement buy it and settle the deal that way. The airplane you describe is worth at least 60K I would think but without knowing if it has a WD engine or what mods its not easy to put a value on it. Fabric from back then would not scare me in the least if it was put on right and taken care of. A early 50s fuselage could be in bad need of repair or it could be near perfect and a 1600 hr O320 could go a long time without any problems or it could be on its last legs.

    Dave

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    Calvin Brandt's Avatar
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    I agree with Ag Pilot. This is easy to settle if the two fellows are reasonable people. I say forget about cost for any time wasted for looking for another like plane but look for a simular plane and if the other fellow will pay for it without arguement consider it a fair deal. I would although look for a plane that was a just a little tiny bit better than the one that got wrecked to even the deal out a bit in my favor.
    Cal

  13. #13
    StewartB
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    Re: Need Help In Evaluating Friends Wrecked Super Cub.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
    A friend's Super Cub got wrecked by another and there is a debate about it's worth. It is an early 1950s Super Cub, ground up restoration in 1994 to the bare frame, 1600 hrs on the engine, basic radio only, all the standard mods and built very light on purpose. What was this Super Cub worth prior to the accident? Thanks.
    Why not rebuild it? That may be a win for both sides. If I was asked to replace a plane that I had damaged I'd want the remains of the old one. Salvage value has to be considered.

    SB

  14. #14
    Calvin Brandt's Avatar
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    I know of a simular supercub that was sold last year that I flew to Texas for a friend of mine that was sold for $55,000

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    The way insurance companies settles claims.

    They go out and search for a similar make and model for sale with the same or similar equipment and add or deduct to compensate for the difference.

    Barnstormers and Trade-a-Plane has lots of 18s to choose from. Trade-a-Plane also has the aircraft appraisal application, although I doubt it is very accurate.

  16. #16
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Fabric is at the 1/2 way point if you figure 30 yr life. Engine is fairly high time especially assuming it was built with the plane in 94. How many mods? and how well was it maintained? My guess would be between 60 and 80K and probably closer to 60K. The only way to go higher is with a new fuselage which it probably does not have, I doubt they were even available in 94. The only way to get a value over 100K is with "what is basically" a new airplane. A current, fully "restored" (ie no new wings, no new fuselage, no 180+ hp engine, no fancy avionics) 1950's, cub might fetch 90K.....maybe.
    As Stewart says, don't forget to include the salvage value of what is there.

    My opinion only

    Bill

    Bill

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    Bill Ingerson's Avatar
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    Cost

    I would bet $70,000 would be real close. I have seen some deals recently that were distress sales that should have sold for alot more, but when looking for plane jane, mid time hours nothing fancy, $70 - $75,000 was about the average cost. Insurance is alot cheaper.



    Bill

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    I bought the 51 Supercub you put the TL mod on at N.H. back in 2006. I bought the plane in 2005 for $47K with 650 hours on the O-290. The fabric was done in 1997.
    No idea what it would bring today. I suppose it was worth $65K a couple years ago.
    I have 1400 hours on it today and would estimate it might bring $60,002.17

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    I just noticed that Bill Rusk and I are only $2.17 apart

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    damaged airplane

    Rocky Mountain Airframe from Belgrade Mt. Was making PMA'd -18 fuselage's back in the 80s. Our fearless Johnson Creek leader has the last one Jim Soars built with a welded on tag that says "final one" but I'm not sure what year Dave bought it.

    Dave

  21. #21
    180Marty's Avatar
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    last one Jim Soars built with a welded on tag that says "final one" but I'm not sure what year Dave bought it.
    I remember talking to Jim in about 1999 or 2000 when I wanted to find out what welding rod they were using. It was shortly after that when they quit. By the way, the rod was ER 70-S.

  22. #22
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info Dave. I did not know they had PMA'ed fuselages for Cubs back in the 80's. Figured it was a 95 or later thing.
    Learn something new every day.

    Bill

  23. #23
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk
    Thanks for the info Dave. I did not know they had PMA'ed fuselages for Cubs back in the 80's. Figured it was a 95 or later thing.
    Learn something new every day.

    Bill
    It actually came with a stc for the replacement fuselage...

  24. #24

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    I sold a 1958 150 hp supercub a year a ago for $65,000. 5 year fabric, less than 1000 hrs TT, 35 hours SMOH and even a few mods. An early 50's model without any extras wouldn't be worth more than $60,000. Just my opinion from this last experience. Doug

  25. #25
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    OK, back in 1994 you tear down your Super Cub for a frame up restoration. You want it to last you a long time so you do everything you know to make it last and keep it light. We all know the blood sweat and tears that go into a rebuild and they rarely will bring what is put into them at the time. Now move forward 16 years. Someone runs off the runway and destroys your airplane. How do you put a value on it? There are Super Cubs in Barnstormers and Trade-A-Plane but I can't find anything less than around $68K unless it is run out and needing TLC. If this were ever to happen to my rebuilt airplane I would have a hard time accepting the price of some run of the mill version I know nothing about that is located in Ten Buck Two. If I trashed someones Super Cub I wouldn't have the balls to low ball them either.

    I now wonder if my 1952 fuselage is worth using. It has been blasted, epoxy primed and top coated with white polyurethane after it was jig and mods added. Is there really a greater value placed on a 1978 Super Cub than a 1952 Super Cub that were rebuilt identical?
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

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    Random thoughts: Art should be in a protected environment, not out running around. I have read countless stories of how you can never get back what you put into a project (is it true or false??). "Book" value takes into account age, market, current economy, usually only allows a relatively small deviation for condition or emotional attachment. In the non litigation world book value reins supreme. On the dark side all bets are off and you can walk away with nothing. How much can you get from someone who doesn't have insurance?? Of whats left (from someone who ,ahem, doesn't have insurance) if you tick them off can you get?? Those with cash line up here in front, the rest of you with checks well get you later... Nothing I have ever observed in nature is (four letter word that starts with "F") "Fair"! enough random thoughts... dave


    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
    OK, back in 1994 you tear down your Super Cub for a frame up restoration. You want it to last you a long time so you do everything you know to make it last and keep it light. We all know the blood sweat and tears that go into a rebuild and they rarely will bring what is put into them at the time. Now move forward 16 years. Someone runs off the runway and destroys your airplane. How do you put a value on it? There are Super Cubs in Barnstormers and Trade-A-Plane but I can't find anything less than around $68K unless it is run out and needing TLC. If this were ever to happen to my rebuilt airplane I would have a hard time accepting the price of some run of the mill version I know nothing about that is located in Ten Buck Two. If I trashed someones Super Cub I wouldn't have the balls to low ball them either.

    I now wonder if my 1952 fuselage is worth using. It has been blasted, epoxy primed and top coated with white polyurethane after it was jig and mods added. Is there really a greater value placed on a 1978 Super Cub than a 1952 Super Cub that were rebuilt identical?

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    This is a great cautionary tale.

    People need to understand that you buy insurance not to protect the other guy, but rather to protect yourself.

    The only time you should go "bare" is when you can afford to absorb the loss yourself. Apparently the guy who's cub was wrecked made a conscious decision to save the thousand bucks it would have cost him to insure his own property. His thousand dollar "savings" cost him tens of thousands.

    He has no one to blame but himself.

  28. #28
    Taledrger's Avatar
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    Based on my recent shopping and purchase experience, I would put the replacement cost between $70-80K in todays market. I would add $15-20K for my trouble.
    Under the circumstances I would not settle for less than $90K unless I get the salvage.
    Bob D

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taledrger
    Based on my recent shopping and purchase experience, I would put the replacement cost between $70-80K in todays market. I would add $15-20K for my trouble.
    Under the circumstances I would not settle for less than $90K unless I get the salvage.
    You're dreaming!

  30. #30
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Steve

    It seems to me that the cost of a new fuselage can quite often be recovered in the resale value, if not more, but an older fuselage is a pretty big unknown. We have all read so many stories of rusted out fuselages with new cover jobs that the descriminating buyer is quite leary. Furthermore a fuselage can sandblasted and painted and still be bad as they rust from the inside.
    I also think that in the 50's and 60's most of these planes sat outside. Somewhere in the 80's it became much more poular to hangar planes (at least in the lower 4 so a 78 or later Cub might have spent its life in a hangar but it is unlikely that a 50's frame has always been hangared.
    This is all stuff you know so I am writing for others to consider. There is little doubt that your friend will get replacement value for his loss.
    If he had it just the way he wanted his best option might be to have someone rebuild his plane with new parts. It might be the most cost effective way to get back into a cub that meets his ideal.

    Bill

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    It's a buyers market now. The cubs aren't fetching what they were a few years ago.

  32. #32
    Taledrger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STMAWR14
    Quote Originally Posted by Taledrger
    Based on my recent shopping and purchase experience, I would put the replacement cost between $70-80K in todays market. I would add $15-20K for my trouble.
    Under the circumstances I would not settle for less than $90K unless I get the salvage.
    You're dreaming!
    And how many have you bought and sold lately????
    Bob D

  33. #33
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Rusk
    Furthermore a fuselage can sandblasted and painted and still be bad as they rust from the inside.
    Bill, My experience has been the opposite. All of the fuselages I have rebuilt over the years have been corroded from the outside in with the exception of fuselages that had holes drilled in the frames that allowed moisture in. These were two J3s that actually had holes drilled in the lower longerons at the factory, a Stearman which someone drilled a hole in and a Clipper which had had some repairs made previously where the welds were not completed. These frames date back to the early 1940s all the way up to a 1983 fuselage that I have in the shop now. The 1983 fuselage was the worst for corrosion on exposed tubes I have seen probably because it spent most of its life in Louisiana. The majority of the problems I find in fuselages are from previous misaligned repairs and from surface corrosion where dirt and moisture have collected between the fabric and the tubing.

    There are other attributes to original frames in my opinion. They are considerably lighter in my experience and the original parts fit better with less modification. All this being said I would not be afraid of an original frame after a thorough inspection but I have seen some that were very scary from corrosion and bad previous repairs. New is great but not always necessary.
    Steve Pierce

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    Quote Originally Posted by Taledrger
    Quote Originally Posted by STMAWR14
    Quote Originally Posted by Taledrger
    Based on my recent shopping and purchase experience, I would put the replacement cost between $70-80K in todays market. I would add $15-20K for my trouble.
    Under the circumstances I would not settle for less than $90K unless I get the salvage.
    You're dreaming!
    And how many have you bought and sold lately????
    Let's see . . . you think a '53 cub rebuilt 15 years ago is worth $90 grand, sight unseen. OK, how many would you like me to deliver at that price?

  35. #35
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Steve

    Thanks for that input. I do not have the hands on experience you do so I was just reporting what I have heard and read over the years. As usual there is more to it than what is seen at first glance. I will certainly keep that in mind in the future. I do agree that the original frames and wings are the lightest and if you can get good ones that would be the way to get the lightest cub.

    Bill

  36. #36
    Taledrger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by STMAWR14
    Quote Originally Posted by Taledrger
    Quote Originally Posted by STMAWR14
    Quote Originally Posted by Taledrger
    Based on my recent shopping and purchase experience, I would put the replacement cost between $70-80K in todays market. I would add $15-20K for my trouble.
    Under the circumstances I would not settle for less than $90K unless I get the salvage.
    You're dreaming!
    And how many have you bought and sold lately????
    Let's see . . . you think a '53 cub rebuilt 15 years ago is worth $90 grand, sight unseen. OK, how many would you like me to deliver at that price?
    I said " in my opinion" the airplane was worth in the $70s. Given loss of use and cost of finding another I would want to be compensated additionally. I'm sure if your airplane was sitting on the ramp in pieces caused by another you would to.

    On the other hand after reviewing some of your previous posts it appears you are an expert in most every area so I will defer. Your right, the guys airplane is not worth squat and he should be happy with what ever he can get.
    Bob D

  37. #37
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    The condition of the covering and finish have EVERYTHING to do with the price range and value of the "replacement" airplane.

    Sounds like it was a nice simple airplane. That is good. How did this nice simple plane age through the years since last refurb.?

    I would think "friends" could, should, and WILL come to an agreement on what an acceptable 'replacement'.

  38. #38
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The owner of the aircraft hit and the pilot of the out of control airplane were not friends previous to this accident.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by STMAWR14
    Quote Originally Posted by Taledrger
    Quote Originally Posted by STMAWR14
    Quote Originally Posted by Taledrger
    Based on my recent shopping and purchase experience, I would put the replacement cost between $70-80K in todays market. I would add $15-20K for my trouble.
    Under the circumstances I would not settle for less than $90K unless I get the salvage.
    You're dreaming!
    And how many have you bought and sold lately????
    Let's see . . . you think a '53 cub rebuilt 15 years ago is worth $90 grand, sight unseen. OK, how many would you like me to deliver at that price?
    The point is: what you would "want" for your plane is vastly different from what you (or anyone else) would "pay" for a plane.

  40. #40
    cafi19's Avatar
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    Emotional attachment has to be removed from the equation. Even if either guy had insurance...there is no factor for that in adjusting the claim.....it is strictly a numbers game.

    Sorry...I don't fault the guy for not carrying hull coverage. Some people are willing to assume some liability for their own screw ups....and no one really expects this kind of thing to happen. I think it is probably a pretty rare occurrence all in all.

    I think the best approach is strictly mathematical. Sit down and write out the features of the plane. Do research based on available planes that are for sale or recently sold today....and come up with the best number you can by comparing the features.

    I would think both would prefer to settle it in a gentlemanly way rather than having the courts do it for them. No one is happy then....except maybe the lawyers. (No offense to the lawyers meant here).

    Forget emotion, forget "blood sweat and tears" put into the plane. They do not factor in at all. Sorry. I know it hurts!!!

    Good luck! Tough situation for all involved!

    cafi

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