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Helio Courier

poweroflift,

Great picture! Thanks for the participation here. Your contributions are very interesting.

Stewart
 
@ Bob, their gross is up to 4200 lbs. They can operate here because of special circumstances in the "experimental" category and also being used in Public Service (law enforcement)

Stewart, many thanks for your comment, we obviously like Helio's
 
Cub junkie said:
Sorry, Helio's with tri-gear are just wrong.
Click to expand...

Helio did make the HT-295 which was a tri-gear. It was If I'm right just a factory built h-295 with tri gear. But I think they look MUCH better with tailwheel. And the tail wheel is better for off airport operations.
 
Hey guys, thinks for all the info. I'am learning a lot.

I've gotten good info on flyhelio.com. The guys there know what their talking about with Helios. For the helio owners here if you got a question about a Helio go there. You'll get the answer you're looking for.
 
The HT-295 was built at Pittsburgh, KS from 1970-74 as the 1700 series models as you say. But the CAP used U-10's acquired from the Air Force and they were converted to tri-gear, and those are the H295 1200 series with the manual flaps. I know many Alaskan operators who have these back to conventional with cross-wind gear. Some operators have installed H-250 wings using the 60 gallon fuel for better load capacity in charter ops..Clarence Brent was the man behind a lot of STC work at the factory. Dean Tremain also was their chief DER ( designated engineer rep) for the FAA. There are many on here who know far more than I do as to what mods and operations require. As of now I think there are about 220 Helios flying between Alaska, Canada and the lower 48. The current site of Helio in Prescott, AZ may be almost non-existent. Parts and product support has never reached the level operators had hoped. A new Helio with the turbine, glass panel could realistically go out the door for $550,000.00 compare this with the Soloy 206/207 and performance wise it is on par with these. The old school Helio clan has all but disappeared.. I could go on for hours here, but hope this gives you some insight to the rarity of these endangered species!!

Cheers,
Stephen
 
Just so you know who you are talking with here. I'm a certified Helio nut and have about 1500 hours in the Helio. We were, at one point, going to purchase the type certificates in 1987 when the stock market crashed in October of that year. Had that happened, you would have plenty of new Helio's and a substantial parts inventory. All we can do now is find a way to get that portion going, through the Helio community!!

I'm on the left, by the way in Helio #2514 that was converted to GO-480 in June of 1965 at the factory, it's serial number reflects that of the H250..!!

meand77tr.jpg
 
@ Bob, typically a Helio HT-295 has a empty weight of 2300 pounds, that gives about 1200 useful, figure with 120 gallons you can carry four with some baggage. For the tail wheels all loading is done behind the mains, the attachment points are ahead of the firewall. The more weight the more take off roll.. Never try to force the airplane up on the mains in this condition, just wait for it to fly, when you do this, expect the airplane to get away from you in a heartbeat...!! For the tri-gear, it is pull and go.. I never use 40 degrees of flaps, no need to, that is way too much drag out there for this condition, but if you want to "demo" the airplane solo I'll use it for the Helio "hover" after the high speed low pass where the airspeed reads zero and rotate the airplane 180 degrees with use of full rudder, but the airplane is extremely light!!
 
Helio's are cool. I have seen some pretty short operations, but never near what a Cub will do, not even close, empty Helio or not.

Having spent a bit of time in slatted-winged Cubs, I can appreciate the slow-flight charachteristics of the Helio, and not just for landing.

The latest Cessna 180 I've been flying has 1310 pounds useful.....was purchased for less than 30K USD, and I've got one going together now, a 1953, that should be in the ballpark of 1420 lbs. useful.

It isn't apples to apples, but is an unfair comparison of a light, high-powered, utility/useful, parts-available and cheap, relatively-inexpensive, early C-180 to a Helio worth discussing?

PS, I have ZERO Helio time, but plenty of my Cub-time, 180/185-time, and Husky time is "behind the power curve" on short final. ......I'm not sure if that is worth mentioning.

Please educate me. Thanks, DAVE
 
poweroflift said:
Just so you know who you are talking with here. I'm a certified Helio nut and have about 1500 hours in the Helio. We were, at one point, going to purchase the type certificates in 1987 when the stock market crashed in October of that year. Had that happened, you would have plenty of new Helio's and a substantial parts inventory. All we can do now is find a way to get that portion going, through the Helio community!!

I'm on the left, by the way in Helio #2514 that was converted to GO-480 in June of 1965 at the factory, it's serial number reflects that of the H250..!!

meand77tr.jpg
Click to expand...
Poweroflift, sorry if I offended you. I did not attend to. I have learned a lot from your post, and enjoyed them very much. The guys at flyhelio had most of the info I wanted about the helio turbine courier and have been with the aircraft since 1965. So I made the commit that it's good place to go for helio info. I like this site (supercub.org) a lot.

Helio pilot, with 1500 hrs. in type, cool How many years have you been flying the helio? Do you know where would be closest to MO. that I could be trained by a helio pilot? And is the helio a type rated aircraft? I'am 14 no time in the air worth talking about, would it be best to start with the helio or other aircraft? Again sorry if I offended you.
 
Hi Dave,

A grossed out Super Cub is what the Helio in most cases is empty, and with the brakes locked I got off with no forward roll and that was @ 3000 RPM, throttle not all the way forward. The Cub won't do that. The 295/395 are for the most part extreme short-field airplanes that can operate from 500' strips @ 11,000 feet AGL, the Cub won't do that, this why the CIA operated them in S.E. Asia from as early as 1959-74. The major component of Helio is safety, you can get killed in anything, but very hard in the Helio. I've had 1600 pounds in the airplane and flew off just fine. Comparison of the two is well, unfair I guess, but for the expense and what you do in Alaska is a horse-a-piece!! The Helio was always expensive, even when first new they were $24,500 F.A.F 1956 H-391B. A late model 295 1200/1400 series with 120 gal. fuel gives me 8.5 hours of range @ 2200 RPM add Rajay "turbo's" and I'm up there at 15,000 feet with 75% power showing 148 KTAS, not in a Cub!!... Break the Helio and it's expensive, break the Cub and you have resources to fix it...Just my humble opinion!!
 
cstol,

No offense taken, hey, I can handle a little constructive criticism. Helio check pilot would be Sam Stainton in Erie, CO, he owns N68857 and teaches all mountain flying and cross-wind gear techniques. I know him personally and he does a thorough job showing you what you can and cannot do in a Helio. You will spend at least 5-10 hours just learning the technique for cross-wind gear. You will need at least 50 hours to get insurance. The Helio flies different than any other GA airplane, when you get that in your head you are ready for the Helio!!
 
For all of those here, we love Super Cubs, no doubt about it, C-180/185's, and all those STOL things with tail-wheels or we would not be here. I greatly appreciate the opportunity to be able to discuss the Helio because that is my passion...Great site here here with lots of info on everything for the back country pilot!!

Cheers
Stephen
 
Lookie here, the Helioplane Four in it's military guise YL-24, that the U.S. Army evaluated for possible use in Korea...Note the fabric covered fuselage behind the rear door and the location of the stabilator...Lycoming GO-435 (260 HP)

heliocour.jpg
 
poweroflift said:
cstol,

No offense taken, hey, I can handle a little constructive criticism. Helio check pilot would be Sam Stainton in Erie, CO, he owns N68857 and teaches all mountain flying and cross-wind gear techniques. I know him personally and he does a thorough job showing you what you can and cannot do in a Helio. You will spend at least 5-10 hours just learning the technique for cross-wind gear. You will need at least 50 hours to get insurance. The Helio flies different than any other GA airplane, when you get that in your head you are ready for the Helio!!
Click to expand...
OK. I have one for my flight sim X-plane 9.45. It took lots of practice to get it to approach speed much less land on the runway ( which I haven't done yet).

How many hours did it take you to master the helio?
 
poweroflift said:
Hi Dave,

A grossed out Super Cub is what the Helio in most cases is empty, and with the brakes locked I got off with no forward roll !
Click to expand...

I don't understand this.

could you word it differently, please.

Also, "...no forward roll.." ??

Please clarify. Thanks for you input. DAVE

PS I have Mr. Rajay in my pocket, as well.
 
Dave Calkins said:
poweroflift said:
Hi Dave,

A grossed out Super Cub is what the Helio in most cases is empty, and with the brakes locked I got off with no forward roll !
Click to expand...

I don't understand this.

could you word it differently, please.

Also, "...no forward roll.." ??

Please clarify. Thanks for you input. DAVE

PS I have Mr. Rajay in my pocket, as well.
Click to expand...
I was wondering about the " no forward roll " statement too. I have gotten a few hours in a light h-295 the past few years, and with a high time pilot demoing we had lot's of forward roll. Maybe a 35 mph head wind?.
 
I meant the max weight of a Super Cub is what the Helio is empty at least for the 295 2200 pounds or so..

I was ferrying a 295 from Washington to SC and encountered bad weather in November of 1985. I elected to stay over in Johnson City, KS and the next morning we had surface winds gusting to 35 mph. I went out to the run-up area and ran it up to 3000 rpm for a check and with the brakes locked the bird "levitated" off the pad in a two point attitude. It can be done, it has been done. I fought with the airplane that day, it did not want to behave on the ground too well..
 
Thanks for your clarification, Poweroflift. I figured that must have been in strong wind.

There are a few turbo'ed SuperCubs.

I have a RAJAY set for the o-470 (C-180 motor, the STC hits on many of the 470 models). It has been said that they can boost a 470 to 350 horsepower. For normal ops., it's a turbo-normalizing system, happens to have a manual wastegate and be able to push 50 inches.

I laugh in the general direction of p-ponked 180's with 260hp, and even the empty-light 185's, although there is a Robertson 185 that I have been flying that is an absolute rocket, and yet a sweetheart as well........that thing with 350HP?...that would be a big "wow"!. When I checked out the owner, a Cub driver, in that thing, it was necessary to "re-learn" him to maintain a constant descent profile on final all the way to the ground. The airplane is capable of hanging on the prop on short final when light, and the owner had been operating it like that, like a Cub pulling the nose up when he was 40 feet high. Anyway, great airplane.

I want a Robertson on my airplane.

I have heard it said, "...don't fly the Helio like a Cessna..." , and I don't fly a Cessna like a Cessna. If this is true for the Helio, what do you fly it like? Is it an angle of attack/behind the power curve thing, or what?

Thanks again for your input. DAVE
 
I fly the Helio with power all the way to flare, you don't pull power to idle on downwind, that's a no-no!! I never use more than 30 degrees flaps because of the drag co-efficient. If conditions exist I use the flatter approach and 55-60 the slats will pop out, in most cases. The Helio can be best flown like an approach to a carrier, if you want to kill altitude bring the nose up, this is where you will get into trouble if flown like other type airplanes. The wing is @ 3 degrees angle of incidence, and the nose 5 degrees down. The Helio has big control surfaces at the back end, the "stab" is 15 feet span, lighter in pitch, heavier in roll. The friese ailerons do the work with proverse yaw, meaning little if any rudder application is needed. The rudder has a small area with a big fin. I try to stay ahead of the power curve, getting behind it the airplane "mushes" and that is not a good situation!! The H391B has the best take-off performance, it is light and get's off now!! with the 101" two-blade Hartzell, it is not too fast and runs out of power above 7500 feet on hot days. The GO-435-C2B2-6 can be bumped up to 10:1 compression with Lycon rockers and valves..

You don't fly a Helio like any other airplane period!!
 
I have heard that in ground operations you use the spoilers to turn the plane as the rudder, and not to use the rudder at all on the ground. And the approach speeds are very low 35 to 40 mph ( I think) and nose high , so if you are used to the cessna it is a very different plane to fly. I should let the pros answer your question. Please correct me if I am wrong poweroflift.
 
poweroflift said:
You don't fly a Helio like any other airplane period!!
Click to expand...

I built a highly-modified PA-12-like a/c:

Slats
Droop ailerons
Lift interrupters like a helio
Wing Angle of incidence at 4 degrees
Extended chord rudder and elevators
Lotsof Power with 90" prop

It is flown like the Helio, I guess.

You didn't mention the lift interruptors on the Helio. Is that the cause of the proverse yaw? I am aware that on the water on floats in the wind they are weak on the rudder and want to weathervane.

This PA-12-ish a/c does not deploy the lift-interrupters unless the ailerons are drooped and flaps deploved. I changed the aileron belcrank differential to give lots of up and not as much down so when the ailerons are drooped with the flaps there is very little adverse yaw. I have not had it in a flight regime where I noticed proverse yaw from the up ailerons. That proverse yaw must be something wild.

The PA-12 is EASY to fly slow. I was very cautious with it at first, but ANYONE can fly it well slow, even Cub guys. :D and also Cessna guys. :D
 
The interceptors on the Helio wing are activated with use of aileron, there are two per wing and located at the 15.5% chord, they are connected to the bellcrank, typically they pop out when near full travel is used. The leading edge of the friese aileron is what produces the proverse yaw as the leading-edge interrupts the airflow on the bottom surface of the wing. The effect of the automatic leading edge slats inhibits this, when air is forced over the top of the wing. To further explain this, I have a diagram that shows the effect of this during slow-flight that will appear when I make a scan and post it, until now, here is something of interest..

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/airfoils/q0041.shtml
 
I am thoroughly convinced that if Helio Aircraft pursued this retrofit and began production with the STC, you would have a serious STOL machine. Build 5 pre-production airplanes and put them on the "demo" circuit and market them to public service agencies, such as law enforcement, you'd have an airplane with great capabilities. This particular Helio rivals any current turbine helicopter in service now for reliability and near vertical performance, such as it is, we have to wait to see the outcome..For the tail wheel enthusiast that could come after production was initiated. It is a rocket in disguise!!

helioturbinestol.jpg
 
Helio myths

There are a lot of myths out there regarding the Helio Courier, Some from old factory sales pitches with over optimistic performance stats and some from people that did not like the Helio and loved to bad mouth it. As is often the case fact is some where in the middle.
.
At the moment I am flying in Afghanistan and do not have my old Log books with me to look up my exact times. If my memory is correct I have around 2.000 hours in Helio's. most of it working off airport
I also have around the same amount of time in C-180/185's and over 5,000 hrs in P'18's

My personal opinions based on flying Helio's, PA/18's and C-180/185"s.

The Helio Courier can land very short. It will land as short as a PA/18.

The Helio WILL NOT GET OFF THE GROUND AS SHORT AS A PA/18. Under the same conditions A PA/18 will always get off the ground shorter than a Helio

My last Helio Courier had 250 lb more legal useful load than my C-185F

At 2,200 elevation with my H295 Helio on 550' strip I could pick up 2 people each with a full backpack, . I could not take my C-185 into that same strip.

The Helio cost a lot more per hr to operate than a C-185 and is 20 mph slower.

It takes far more time to learn to fly a Helio than it does to learn to fly a Cub or C-180/185

I love Helio's my only complaint is the lack of parts availability for the airframe and for the GO-480

Jerry
 
Jerry,

I would argue about the take-off roll in a light Helio H-391B with the big slow turning 101" two-blade on a cool day, they are the lightest Helio's built, but suffer in cruise and high altitude performance, and certainly, lack of parts for the GO-435, long gone!!

The merits for all the airplanes mentioned are rightfully so in their own right.

The H250 is light too, but lacks power..and don't put the 120 gallon fuel or 3800 pound mod to it!!

I doubt that anyone here will ever see the day when Helio is produced again, it's a darn shame..

But while this thread exists, I will try to get as much info on here to satisfy the curious indeed...

Thanks for the feedback!!
 
Helio's

I hope you keep the Helio thread going as they are fantastic planes and deserve to have more people know them.

I have no personal experience with a H-391. and have never seen one perform. My old friend and Helio Guru Jim Danish is building a hotrod H391 that should be the ultimate performing Helio courier when he finishes it.
I will make the 9 hr flight in my C185 just to see Jim fly his hotrod H391 when he gets it done. Jim if you read this hurry up and get that project done as we are not getting any younger.

I have owned a H-250, a H395 with the Go480 and a H295, also flown a H800.
I never considered the H391 as it did not have the legal useful load that I needed for my guiding business..
My planes were the primary working tools of my business and had to pay their way. The old saying "performance cost" is true.
So for me a plane that would legally haul more weight than a C-185 and work almost as short of strips as a PA/18 was what I needed.
The H395 with the 3800 LBS GW was the perfect plane for my guiding operation in Alaska and was worth the higher operating cost than a C-185.

The only reason I ever sold my H-395 was the parts availability issue. I had a 130 day operating season and just could not afford
to have down time because of lack of parts availably..

For people not trying to make a living in a short season the Helio is still a good choice.

Jerry Jacques
 
Re: Helio's

Talkeetnaairtaxi said:
I hope you keep the Helio thread going as they are fantastic planes and deserve to have more people know them.

I have no personal experience with a H-391. and have never seen one perform. My old friend and Helio Guru Jim Danish is building a hotrod H391 that should be the ultimate performing Helio courier when he finishes it.
I will make the 9 hr flight in my C185 just to see Jim fly his hotrod H391 when he gets it done. Jim if you read this hurry up and get that project done as we are not getting any younger.

I have owned a H-250, a H395 with the Go480 and a H295, also flown a H800.
I never considered the H391 as it did not have the legal useful load that I needed for my guiding business..
My planes were the primary working tools of my business and had to pay their way. The old saying "performance cost" is true.
So for me a plane that would legally haul more weight than a C-185 and work almost as short of strips as a PA/18 was what I needed.
The H395 with the 3800 LBS GW was the perfect plane for my guiding operation in Alaska and was worth the higher operating cost than a C-185.

The only reason I ever sold my H-395 was the parts availability issue. I had a 130 day operating season and just could not afford
to have down time because of lack of parts availably..

For people not trying to make a living in a short season the Helio is still a good choice.

Jerry Jacques
Click to expand...
What is your friend doing to the h-391 to make it a "hotrod"?

Which of your helios did you like the best?
 
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