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Thread: Helio Courier

  1. #1

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    Helio Courier

    How does a courier at gross compare to a stock super cub at gross in performance?

  2. #2

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    IMHO, the cub beats the courier.

  3. #3
    aktango58's Avatar
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    The Helio will go in and out the same spots with the same load from the ones I have been in. (talking wheels)

    Loaded they are slightly better than a tricked out 180 with a good pilot.

    Cubs are easier to push by hand, but what a load you can carry in the Helio!!!!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  4. #4

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    If nothing else, the density altitude will get the Helio compared with the Cub, but of course, I'm only talking about my own flying experience in them.




  5. #5

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    Special purpose aircraft suitable only for special purposes. It is true they will carry a pretty good load, but I am not so sure they can do it legally. For sheer economical fun, the Cub is the better airplane.

  6. #6

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    Helio Courier

    what is the chance of the helio getting broken in the bush and be able to fix good enough to fly to where you could have a parts and the equipment to fix it properly??

  7. #7

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    That depends pretty much on the extent of the damage done to the aircraft and the experience of the pilot(both flying and mechanical) ferrying the plane out.

    I know some pretty badly wounded birds flown out of the bush for the repair stations, but I'm not sure if any of those Helio pilots are around anymore, who were knowledgeable and skillful enough to do it.

  8. #8

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    A helio with the 2 blade prop will fly at 28mph stock legal airplane. How many legal cubs will do that?? Apples and oranges.

  9. #9

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    I have owned a few Helio's over the years.

    for 8 years In my guiding operation I worked a light H-295 Helio and 2 PA/18 cubs at the same time.

    There were places on both wheels and floats that I would take my PA/18's that I would not take my H-295 Helio.

    I love the Helio and it is a fantastic plane that will get in and out of places that I could never think of taking my Cessna C-180 or C-185. The Helio will carry a C-206 load and only needs a little more room than a PA/18.

    Ron Sutphin taught me to fly the Helio and was the best Helio pilot that I have ever met. Ron owned PA/18's and Helio's. He told me yaers ago that the Helio would not replace my PA/18 for the very short places I had to go.

    Jerry Jacques
    Alaska Master Guide #110

  10. #10

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    Helio Courier

    if you where hauling big loads out of small strips what would you prefer helio or cub? and does anybody know what a turbine courier vs cub would be like?

  11. #11
    Speedo's Avatar
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    Re: Helio Courier

    Quote Originally Posted by cstolaircraft
    if you where hauling big loads out of small strips what would you prefer helio or cub? and does anybody know what a turbine courier vs cub would be like?
    Why not a Kodiak? 3,100 lb useful load, 760 ft ground roll! Pretty cool plane. funseventy on this site was one of their test pilots.

    Eric
    Speedo

  12. #12

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    Still not much experience at the Helio, although triple the amount I had in my last post.

    Here's one - in very general terms: Suppose you pull the gear off a Helio (140lbs or so) and add a set of amphibs (say, 750 lbs). You have lost the equivalent of being able to haul three big passengers. How much load carrying capabilty would you guess you have left?

    And what happens when you do the same thing to a Cessna 206?

    Not a test - I am still working on the answer.

  13. #13

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    Re: Helio Courier

    Quote Originally Posted by Speedo
    Quote Originally Posted by cstolaircraft
    if you where hauling big loads out of small strips what would you prefer helio or cub? and does anybody know what a turbine courier vs cub would be like?
    Why not a Kodiak? 3,100 lb useful load, 760 ft ground roll! Pretty cool plane. funseventy on this site was one of their test pilots.

    Eric
    Well to much $$$. If I had that choice, it would be a sherpa k650t with 3000 lb useful load and ( I think) about 400 ft ground roll!! Kodiak is still neat plane though

  14. #14

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    Helio Courier

    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner
    Still not much experience at the Helio, although triple the amount I had in my last post.

    Here's one - in very general terms: Suppose you pull the gear off a Helio (140lbs or so) and add a set of amphibs (say, 750 lbs). You have lost the equivalent of being able to haul three big passengers. How much load carrying capabilty would you guess you have left?

    And what happens when you do the same thing to a Cessna 206?

    Not a test - I am still working on the answer.
    What is anther good site for posting things like this??

  15. #15

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    Helio Groups

    You might try asking someone at www.flyhelio.com/ or the helio courier on Facebook.

    Here was another recent helio discussion from last week
    http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewt...ighlight=helio

  16. #16

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    Re: Helio Groups

    Quote Originally Posted by flyboy
    You might try asking someone at www.flyhelio.com/ or the helio courier on Facebook.

    Here was another recent helio discussion from last week
    http://www.supercub.org/phpbb2/viewt...ighlight=helio
    THanks I'll try that

  17. #17

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    Then come back here and report. I have found that this site is the most definitive source for STOL and taildragger info. I have a Super Decathlon, and if I needed info I would ask here first.

    I am in the process of memorizing the JAARS manual. They seem to be a highly professional outfit. I am actually surprised at how much I am learning on my third time through the manual, after maybe ten hours in the pattern.

  18. #18

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    Helio Courier

    I tried flyhelio.com today and have not got anything. Just posted this morning though and with only 15 members it'll take awhile probably.

    Bob, good luck with your Manuel project. tell me how long it takes I might try it.

  19. #19

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    We have posted a response @ www.flyhelio.com

    As someone else said you are comparing Apples to Oranges here..

    The Helio was developed for off-airport use from it's conception, and Dr. Otto Koppen designed it as an "experiment" developed from a Piper Vagabond PA-17. So, with that being said my first experience with the Helio came about in 1965 being introduced to the model H-250 MK II (Lycoming O-540-A1A5 250 HP) these were developed for export to South America in early 1965 burning 80 octane avgas. They are light, and use short-fields unprepared and that's about it. Cruise is 108 KTS at any given time, 3400 pounds gross. Above 7500 feet they are dogs, especially if heavy!! Now comes the H-295 Super Courier (Lycoming GO-480-G1D6 295 HP) used in T-Bones and Aero Commander 560's if you know about geared Lyc. operations you are good to go. The 295 is on par with the 206 load-wise, but far more rugged. If you were to convert the 295 to the RR/Allison 250 (420 HP) you have a very solid machine with incredible performance at a cost!!.. The Kodiak is no where near a STOL airplane, load it up and you'll see what we mean. The Super Cub is far less expensive and quite capable. The bottom line here is that what you need can be valued in your requirements!!

  20. #20

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    The second part to your inquiry would be the Helio Stallion and there are only two flying world-wide, the remaining fleet (AU-24A) is in India or China somewhere. The Stallion is a "hot rod" for STOL airplanes, get it slow, and it's like trying to fly a football from the top, very unsuspecting, high angle of attack values make it quite unstable with the airspeed around 38 KTS. The AOA deck angle is somewhere around 30 degrees, don't go there!!

    We are not sure of the status for factory support anymore, it seems for now that this is non-existent. In any case, should use choose to make the Helio a part of your fleet, do your research and by all means know what you are getting into, they can be workhorses but at an expense..

  21. #21

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    Helio Courier

    I've gotten good info on flyhelio.com. I'am finding what I what. Thanks flyboy for the lead.

  22. #22

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    Helio H-800 with the RR/Allison B-17F (420 HP) with air conditioning and glass panel


  23. #23
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Sorry, Helio's with tri-gear are just wrong.

  24. #24

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    That was the decision of his supervisors. I concur, but when you have 5 pilots to train @ $150.00 an hour for a sum of 100 hours each the costs add up quickly, so that is why you have the Tri-Gear!!

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie
    Sorry, Helio's with tri-gear are just wrong.
    Well, this may better suit you, and I could not agree more, but that's the way it goes for some operators and this just happens to be Pima County Sheriff's Helio one of two tri-gears..


  26. #26
    StewartB
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    On firm surfaces a tricycle has some advantages. It's about getting the job done, isn't it?

    SB

  27. #27
    Cub junkie's Avatar
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    Yes the trike has some advantages in some cases. Just an unsolicited opinion. I grew up about 50 miles from the Helio factory in the '60's and saw them all the time being tested. The tri gear picture makes that thing look like a giant Zenith CH 701.

  28. #28

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    Alcor Engineering did the original mod to a 1200 series 295 in 1968 with the mains from a C-185 and the nose-wheel from a 310. Helio started building them in the 70's as 1700 series at Pittsburgh, KS. They thought it would cater to the non-tailwheel, pavement type pilot wanting a specialty STOL airplane..

    The Helio is far better looking than the CH 701

  29. #29
    StewartB
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    With the removal of the tailwheel allowing the tail to drop lower, the mains being back moving the fulcrum back, (now we have a higher AOA at take-off), and the more efficient initial thrustline from the tricycle's stance, I'd imagine the trike Helio would operate shorter than the conventional model, particularly when light and using pavement for the demonstration. It looks like fun. Push the throttle in and pull the yoke to your chest. Wallow off in ground effect. I kinda miss trikes sometimes.

    Stewart

  30. #30

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    Stewart, here we have the 1700 series in the same configuration. The H-295 has ten degrees more travel than the H800/700 airplanes, this was done to increase gross weight as well as CG moment..The factory left the belly pan in for tri-gear versions but never built them from 1983-84, hence the high empty weight. Some U-10D's have the 3600 pound gross weight while most are stuck at 3400 pounds, the factory it seems never drop tested the airplane.. This photo clearly shows the increased AOA numbers, note the departure area!!!


  31. #31

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    So at 3400, what was their useful load, legally speaking? Two pilots and gas?

  32. #32
    StewartB
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    poweroflift,

    Great picture! Thanks for the participation here. Your contributions are very interesting.

    Stewart

  33. #33

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    @ Bob, their gross is up to 4200 lbs. They can operate here because of special circumstances in the "experimental" category and also being used in Public Service (law enforcement)

    Stewart, many thanks for your comment, we obviously like Helio's

  34. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cub junkie
    Sorry, Helio's with tri-gear are just wrong.
    Helio did make the HT-295 which was a tri-gear. It was If I'm right just a factory built h-295 with tri gear. But I think they look MUCH better with tailwheel. And the tail wheel is better for off airport operations.

  35. #35

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    Helio Courier

    Hey guys, thinks for all the info. I'am learning a lot.

    I've gotten good info on flyhelio.com. The guys there know what their talking about with Helios. For the helio owners here if you got a question about a Helio go there. You'll get the answer you're looking for.

  36. #36

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    The HT-295 was built at Pittsburgh, KS from 1970-74 as the 1700 series models as you say. But the CAP used U-10's acquired from the Air Force and they were converted to tri-gear, and those are the H295 1200 series with the manual flaps. I know many Alaskan operators who have these back to conventional with cross-wind gear. Some operators have installed H-250 wings using the 60 gallon fuel for better load capacity in charter ops..Clarence Brent was the man behind a lot of STC work at the factory. Dean Tremain also was their chief DER ( designated engineer rep) for the FAA. There are many on here who know far more than I do as to what mods and operations require. As of now I think there are about 220 Helios flying between Alaska, Canada and the lower 48. The current site of Helio in Prescott, AZ may be almost non-existent. Parts and product support has never reached the level operators had hoped. A new Helio with the turbine, glass panel could realistically go out the door for $550,000.00 compare this with the Soloy 206/207 and performance wise it is on par with these. The old school Helio clan has all but disappeared.. I could go on for hours here, but hope this gives you some insight to the rarity of these endangered species!!

    Cheers,
    Stephen

  37. #37

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    Just so you know who you are talking with here. I'm a certified Helio nut and have about 1500 hours in the Helio. We were, at one point, going to purchase the type certificates in 1987 when the stock market crashed in October of that year. Had that happened, you would have plenty of new Helio's and a substantial parts inventory. All we can do now is find a way to get that portion going, through the Helio community!!

    I'm on the left, by the way in Helio #2514 that was converted to GO-480 in June of 1965 at the factory, it's serial number reflects that of the H250..!!


  38. #38

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    @ Bob, typically a Helio HT-295 has a empty weight of 2300 pounds, that gives about 1200 useful, figure with 120 gallons you can carry four with some baggage. For the tail wheels all loading is done behind the mains, the attachment points are ahead of the firewall. The more weight the more take off roll.. Never try to force the airplane up on the mains in this condition, just wait for it to fly, when you do this, expect the airplane to get away from you in a heartbeat...!! For the tri-gear, it is pull and go.. I never use 40 degrees of flaps, no need to, that is way too much drag out there for this condition, but if you want to "demo" the airplane solo I'll use it for the Helio "hover" after the high speed low pass where the airspeed reads zero and rotate the airplane 180 degrees with use of full rudder, but the airplane is extremely light!!

  39. #39
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Helio's are cool. I have seen some pretty short operations, but never near what a Cub will do, not even close, empty Helio or not.

    Having spent a bit of time in slatted-winged Cubs, I can appreciate the slow-flight charachteristics of the Helio, and not just for landing.

    The latest Cessna 180 I've been flying has 1310 pounds useful.....was purchased for less than 30K USD, and I've got one going together now, a 1953, that should be in the ballpark of 1420 lbs. useful.

    It isn't apples to apples, but is an unfair comparison of a light, high-powered, utility/useful, parts-available and cheap, relatively-inexpensive, early C-180 to a Helio worth discussing?

    PS, I have ZERO Helio time, but plenty of my Cub-time, 180/185-time, and Husky time is "behind the power curve" on short final. ......I'm not sure if that is worth mentioning.

    Please educate me. Thanks, DAVE

  40. #40

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    Helio Courier

    Quote Originally Posted by poweroflift
    Just so you know who you are talking with here. I'm a certified Helio nut and have about 1500 hours in the Helio. We were, at one point, going to purchase the type certificates in 1987 when the stock market crashed in October of that year. Had that happened, you would have plenty of new Helio's and a substantial parts inventory. All we can do now is find a way to get that portion going, through the Helio community!!

    I'm on the left, by the way in Helio #2514 that was converted to GO-480 in June of 1965 at the factory, it's serial number reflects that of the H250..!!

    Poweroflift, sorry if I offended you. I did not attend to. I have learned a lot from your post, and enjoyed them very much. The guys at flyhelio had most of the info I wanted about the helio turbine courier and have been with the aircraft since 1965. So I made the commit that it's good place to go for helio info. I like this site (supercub.org) a lot.

    Helio pilot, with 1500 hrs. in type, cool How many years have you been flying the helio? Do you know where would be closest to MO. that I could be trained by a helio pilot? And is the helio a type rated aircraft? I'am 14 no time in the air worth talking about, would it be best to start with the helio or other aircraft? Again sorry if I offended you.

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