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Thread: sutton exhaust system

  1. #1

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    sutton exhaust system

    I'm just wondering if anyone has any experience with the sutton exhaust system on the pa-12.Looking for reviews on it. Thanks

  2. #2
    D C's Avatar
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    I put it on my PA-12 last year and was very pleased with it. No more exhaust in the cabin very clean and easy to remove. Gives you ample room on the fire wall for working on linkages. I will put it on my PA-18 when the time comes.
    DC

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    Speedo's Avatar
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    It's a clean installation that leaves plenty of room between the accessory case and the firewall. The only trouble I've had with it is removing and replacing the fasteners that hold the exterior shroud. The shroud needs to be removed for inspection during the annual, and the fasteners are hard to get to. If you don't get the fasteners tight when you re-install them they will vibrate their way loose. It helps if you have tiny but powerful hands.

    The standard length exhaust tube (the part that passes through the lower cowling) is longer than the stock tube, and some folks don't like the way it looks. Personally, I think it's better: it means the exhaust dumps out farther from the door, and on my plane no exhaust gets in the cabin. It does leave exhaust stain on the gear leg, but that's really not a big deal.

    The Sutton exhaust eliminates the 100 hour recurrent inspection, which is nice. It's well fabricated, and you will probably like it.
    Speedo

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    I put the Sutton exhaust system on my homebuilt supercub (NorthStar). It is engineered just like the Cessna 180/185 exhausts; downtubes coming directly into a horizontal muffler. I chose the option of enhanced heat output (increases heat transfer inside the heat shroud). Shroud is easily removed via 6 sheet metal screws across top. With muffler up front, lots of room behind engine.

    Stack length: I cut it down and put the angled-back piece on it, because on 180s, adding extra length of stick-out with for instance a seaplane extension increases stress where the stack comes out of the muffler. This is a very common place for cracks, and often difficult to repair weld.

    The Suttons have their system fabricated by Dawley; they are an excellent PMA shop and do beautiful work. Everything fits perfectly, welds are great. I DID find that inlet air to exhaust was in front of #1 cylinder, and outlets to carb heat/cabin air were on left, necessitating reversing inlet tube to carb air box and modifying front baffles. This all required A LOT of rework to CubCrafters baffles and carb air box. Oh well, it's an experimental, with a capital E.

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    Thanks for the replies.I believe there is a wieght decrease with this exhaust system,is there an increase in power at all?

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    Does anybody else have opinions on the Sutton exhaust? I am also looking at one for my pa-12 with a short mount 150hp.

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    How does it compare to the Leading Edge exhaust on the -12?

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    JMBreitinger's Avatar
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    I have the Sutton Exhaust on my 160 HP PA-18. I love it right up until winter. I am not getting nearly as much heat output from mine as I did from the stock system that I replaced. I know that there is a cold weather kit. Has anyone had experience with this?

  9. #9
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Not the Sutton exhaust, but I have the Custom Aircraft dual exhaust and had it studded for extra heat. I thought I would be cooked out but been getting a little chilly in cabin, especially for my rear seater. Need to figure out something. I am "ok" up front, but could be warmer. Been flying in 20F OAT.

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    Sutton exhaust test

    Gentlemen:
    A couple of years ago, I had my O320 on a test stand @ Lycon. After the straight pipe performance test were completed, we bolted the Sutton exhaust and reran the last test. It dropped the horsepower by about 20 hp out of the box. If you use this system, cut the exhaust pipe off as short as possible. Lycon's thoughts are that the long pipe is building up back pressure. After we cut the pipe down, we got back most of the lost power. A friend of mine is running it on his 18. After these test, we cut his off and he noticed the difference.
    J Niesen

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    Quote Originally Posted by J NIESEN View Post
    Gentlemen:
    A couple of years ago, I had my O320 on a test stand @ Lycon. After the straight pipe performance test were completed, we bolted the Sutton exhaust and reran the last test. It dropped the horsepower by about 20 hp out of the box. If you use this system, cut the exhaust pipe off as short as possible. Lycon's thoughts are that the long pipe is building up back pressure. After we cut the pipe down, we got back most of the lost power. A friend of mine is running it on his 18. After these test, we cut his off and he noticed the difference.
    J Niesen
    20 horsepower I think you need to do some more testing. That's not even believable.

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    I will dig up the printout of the dyno runs and post them.
    There is a quote in the world that I work in that says: "In God we trust, all others bring data"

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    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trapperty View Post
    20 horsepower I think you need to do some more testing. That's not even believable.
    I had heard dyno testing had revealed a significant LOSS of HP with this exhaust. I am glad to see they got "most of it" back by shortening the outlet pipe.

    How much is "most of it" back??

    DAVE

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    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bugs66 View Post
    Not the Sutton exhaust, but I have the Custom Aircraft dual exhaust and had it studded for extra heat. I thought I would be cooked out but been getting a little chilly in cabin, especially for my rear seater. Need to figure out something. I am "ok" up front, but could be warmer. Been flying in 20F OAT.
    virtually every "HOT ROD" Cub-style ("Kazoom", "SQ-2", and many more, etc.) with the pumped-up O-360 or an O-375 is using the Custom Aircraft Dual Exhaust. It is a thing of beauty, I been "around" several of them.

    I know of one that had very long exhuast stack extensions and the poor O-375 was quite choked by the long stacks. Trimming them made ALLL KINDS of difference on this a/c. DAVE

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    The new SQ2 model I saw had a Sutton on it. Why would they put it on if it caused a significant decrease in power?

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    I had sutton put a 3" dia. stack from the muffler all the way out. I am experimental.

  17. #17
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    20 hp from straight pipes to Sutton is how I read it. I take it this is no muffler, heater, carb heat etc. Not many airplanes I have seen run straight pipes.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JMBreitinger View Post
    I have the Sutton Exhaust on my 160 HP PA-18. I love it right up until winter. I am not getting nearly as much heat output from mine as I did from the stock system that I replaced. I know that there is a cold weather kit. Has anyone had experience with this?


    I had the same problem. Tired of freezing my arse last winter, I redid my hoses, installed a Y so some of it would go thru my FADodge heat robber, and most importantly, added two finned bands inside the muff clamped to the exhaust. now I have more heat than my old system.

  19. #19
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I am working on a Super Cub with the original Sutton muffler. Just sent it off to Dawley for the heat ribbons used on the later ones.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  20. #20
    Jerry Gaston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by J NIESEN View Post
    Gentlemen:
    A couple of years ago, I had my O320 on a test stand @ Lycon. After the straight pipe performance test were completed, we bolted the Sutton exhaust and reran the last test. It dropped the horsepower by about 20 hp out of the box. If you use this system, cut the exhaust pipe off as short as possible. Lycon's thoughts are that the long pipe is building up back pressure. After we cut the pipe down, we got back most of the lost power. A friend of mine is running it on his 18. After these test, we cut his off and he noticed the difference.
    J Niesen
    How short did you cut it?

  21. #21
    Jerry Gaston's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S2D View Post
    I had the same problem. Tired of freezing my arse last winter, I redid my hoses, installed a Y so some of it would go thru my FADodge heat robber, and most importantly, added two finned bands inside the muff clamped to the exhaust. now I have more heat than my old system.
    Brian you will have to send me a picture of what you did because i'm freezing with my Sutton Ex

  22. #22
    SteveE's Avatar
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    In fact,,,Brian old buddy,, you can fix mine and Jerrys this winter.... have em ready in the morning while we rest up....

  23. #23
    SJ's Avatar
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    Dang boys, I have the "arctic' Sutton Exhaust. There are burns on my floorboards, a melted underseat storage, and scars on my wife's legs from the heat from this monster.

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  24. #24

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    Steve, you should have bought an Atlee Performance... nice and toasty in 604 plus PERFORMANCE and I didn't even have to cut a new hole... But hey it's not too late just reorder and put some duct tape over that hole (no one will notice) and you'll have a warm winter… How warm, why so warm I'm thinking about flying to Montana in my jammies and house shoes just so I’ll be comfy on the long trip!
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 12-07-2010 at 09:24 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by SJ View Post
    Dang boys, I have the "arctic' Sutton Exhaust. There are burns on my floorboards, a melted underseat storage, and scars on my wife's legs from the heat from this monster.

    sj
    Yeah,,, blame the exhaust for those leg scars......


    It works a ok at high rpm,,, but when you are slow and low for hours, thats when it gets cold...
    Last edited by SteveE; 12-07-2010 at 08:35 PM.

  26. #26
    cafi19's Avatar
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    Um....I'm not worried about being cold. I was in the back seat when it burned my leg....really burned my leg and melted the plastic under the seat.

    cafi

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    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SteveE View Post
    Yeah,,, blame the exhaust for those leg scars......


    It works a ok at high rpm,,, but when you are slow and low for hours, thats when it gets cold...
    Only heat your gonna get at those temps with the windows open is from a fire.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  28. #28
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cafi19 View Post
    Um....I'm not worried about being cold. I was in the back seat when it burned my leg....really burned my leg and melted the plastic under the seat.

    cafi
    I guess I should have included a warning label with my modification.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

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    Wink

    Hi Guys,
    I figured I'd better chime in since it appears I am either cutting half your power, freezing people, or cooking them... I guess the first thing I should address is the dyno comment. I have always found it funny how you can get so many different results from different guys operating their dyno's. Because of this, I have always thought thrust testing was my most reliable source of information. As you can probably guess, it would not have been possible for me to get this STC if it had in fact caused a deterioration of power. That being said, many engine builders have fun putting thier engines on test stands and then running them way above red line to show some miraculous power achievement. The problem is that it cannot be transferred into thrust efficiently. I have no doubt that under this type of circumstance you can show a power decrease with about any type of exhaust system when comparing it to straight pipes. The fact is, our system is designed to be optimum when running within the engines prescribed limits. If you are running high compression pistons, or are doing some other type of engine modification, it may help to shorten the pipe, or have me build you one with a full three inch tailpipe. However, in normal certified installations, the necked down tailpipe should be optimum. Please keep in mind that it would be easier, and cheaper just to have it built with a full sized, straight tailpipe. We are not necking it down just for fun, or so we can rob you of power...

    As far as the heat goes, this is usually an issue which depends on many variables. Since our entire muffler can is used for cabin heat, there is much more surface area available for heat transfer when compared to the stock system. That being said, I realize that many of you operate in extremely cold climates so I have the "heat ribbon" option which increases heat transfer even more. If you are running the heat ribbon system and you are still cold, it may be hard to get much of an improvement short of lighting the plane on fire... However, I would recommend looking closely at the shroud and ductwork to make sure everything is installed correctly and not leaking. You can do this by hooking up your vacuum cleaner pressure side to the muffler air intake. Then go around and look for leaks, and seal them up accordingly. The guys at Dakota Cub even streamlined the corners of their cabin heat box to increase the flow. (Thanks for the tip Mark) Just keep in mind that it is all about collecting and transferring a limited amount of energy. If you are running a low RPM for hours at a slow speed, you now have less BTU's to capture, and less forced air through the system. Other than using a highly restrictive muffler, which is not an option for obvious reasons, about all you can do is go about reducing the drafts in your cabin. This is usually the biggest area for improvement in Cubs anyway. Keep in mind that this system is used on many four passenger airplanes with much larger cabins, and works perfectly fine without even using the heat ribbons. Therefore it really should be capable of heating the smaller cabin area associated with a Cub. As far as too much heat, I guess we will have to stick with Steves' warning label.. If you have any questions, please feel free to give me a call. Sometimes its pretty hard to cover everything in writing.

    Brian Sutton
    Professional Pilots inc.
    219-696-8726
    Likes JDWilliams, 180TigerCub liked this post

  30. #30
    SJ's Avatar
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    Brian, great post! thanks!

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

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    Smile Sutton

    Do what it takes to keep oil temps above 180 degrees. 200 is really good. I use the standard cub heat for a hose to the back seat with a hook on the end when I need defrost. I have a Y to a attle box that comes in high on the right side of the boot cowl with a short piece of exhaust riser hose that is directed between my feet up front.
    I have never had the front seat heat on more than a little. The hose will melt everything in site on high heat. I deal with low temps all winter long.
    Sandy
    Sandy

  32. #32
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    After a claim of 20hp lost, JN said:

    Quote Originally Posted by J NIESEN View Post
    I will dig up the printout of the dyno runs and post them.
    There is a quote in the world that I work in that says: "In God we trust, all others bring data"
    OK, so let's see the data.

    My experience with "straight pipes" has been great. I bought mine from Vetterman (designed for Rans) on recommendation from Bart. He said it would make a "noticeable" diff, and it did. There is no muffler, the pipes cross over in front of the oil pan, and you can dump the exhaust down through the lower cowl vents, or out the back just under the firewall. Fit/finish/quality is 101%

    I was suffering a bit of an RPM issue on break-in, it wouldn't spin up to 2750. After the new exhaust system it now goes to 2800 without a prob. My "massaged" 0320 now jumps off the water 1 sec. faster than the neighbors' 0360. Bart's magic + no back pressure = a GoodThing.

  33. #33
    Jerry Gaston's Avatar
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    Could somebody post some pictures I'm having a hard time understanding the config under the cowling.

  34. #34
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I don't think you would ever get a straight pipe system approved. You have to have a carburetor heat source that must drop so many degrees at the carb air box and you have to meet a noise limitation. I am sure there are other limits as well. My point is that we compare certified to certified instead of what the experimental guys have figured out and what can be approved.

    Brian, SJ has too much heat because we welded a 2" tube to a V shaped plate, attached a long 2" SCAT hose to it and slid it between the V tube on the firewall and the firewall blanket. It puts all the heat out the end of the hose. Laura was cold in the back seat before we came up with this and SJ was cooked. Normal Super Cub thing I think. SJ put some holes in the aluminum tube this year to give him some heat and Laura not so much. His door was pretty drafty as well. All this is mute if you fly in Texas most of the time.
    Steve Pierce

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  35. #35
    cafi19's Avatar
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    There you go. The Steves were just trying to prevent any lip from me....so they made sure I had nothing more to complain about. Well done! hee hee!

    cafi

  36. #36
    cafi19's Avatar
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    There you go. The Steves were just trying to prevent any lip from me....so they made sure I had nothing more to complain about. Well done! hee hee!

    cafi

  37. #37
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Just wanted to keep you warm and well. You have a bad habit of getting sick here or shortly after you leave.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  38. #38
    cafi19's Avatar
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    I know.....what's up with that!

    cafi

  39. #39
    Widebody's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Gaston View Post
    Could somebody post some pictures I'm having a hard time understanding the config under the cowling.
    Will have pictures for you in just a little while. Along with a post.
    I had Leading Edge but now have Sutton.

    Brad

  40. #40
    Amy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPI Brian View Post
    The guys at Dakota Cub even streamlined the corners of their cabin heat box to increase the flow. (Thanks for the tip Mark)
    We were just talking about that the other week . . . and I can assure you that airplane will cook you out without trying! With an airplane that is nicely sealed up (door seals, window seals), the heat is just barely cracked and I am perfectly content in a sweatshirt/t-shirt, and I get cold just thinking about snow.

    Keep up the good work!

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