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sutton exhaust system

Here is what I know. I have a Sutton exhaust that I am very happy with. But after 1400 hours, it needs some repairs. I got hold of Dawley (supplier that makes exhaust for Sutton) and they informed me that they were sold and are no longer doing repairs. Manufacturing new only. Larry Dawley sold to AWI in Minneapolis and the operation will be relocated there by summer or thereabouts. Per Kurt at Dawley, while they were not able to repair my exhaust, they had new exhausts available for sale through Sutton. I am making due with my current exhaust as it is still airworthy. Hoping that it lasts until summer when AWI should be able to repair it for me.


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Hey folks, just upgrading to an O-360 C4P. Talked with the folks at Sutton who informed me that with the C4P the sump is a little bit deeper and I may need 1/4”extensions to attach the pipes. Any of you folks have experience with this? Any recommendations are certainly welcome.


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Just a heads up for Sutton exhaust owners, the carb heat shroud is pretty open on the left side where it sits against the cowling and is liable to allow debris into the intake and get sucked into the engine. You can fix this by tack welding a small piece of squirrel screen over the carb heat outlet to prevent rocks from getting in the engine.

My brother found this out the hard way on our dad's plane when the engine developed a bad knock and started running rough trying to take off on a beach. Checked the plugs and one of them had the insulator cracked and the end all messed up. Borescoping the cylinder showed the combustion chamber and piston all beat up like someone had gone to town with a small ball peen hammer inside the cylinder. Based on the size of dents it looked like a small beach pebble had gotten thrown into the cowling and gone into the carb heat shroud then ingested by the engine during run up carb heat check.
 
Can happen with about any exhaust with carb heat on. They all (that I have seen) circumvent the air cleaner. We teach carb heat cold on final and don't taxi with it on for just this reason. Know two people who had engine failures (one partial, one full) for ingesting a june bug into the carb with carb heat on. Weird that it was a june bug both times...

sj
 
I would point out that the Sutton exhaust heat shroud is wide open on the left end allowing more than the normal amount and size of debris to enter and it's also open directly next to to the output to carb flange. With the left cowling open you can see the inside of the carb heat flange itself.
 
Crash said:
I would point out that the Sutton exhaust heat shroud is wide open on the left end allowing more than the normal amount and size of debris to enter and it's also open directly next to to the output to carb flange. With the left cowling open you can see the inside of the carb heat flange itself.
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Your end cap must have been missing. There are tabs and cap on the end. I did have a few early ones where the tabs cracked. Talking to Brian Sutton they beefed up the tabs.
 
Suttonexhaust.JPG

Nope, end cap isn't missing. You can see in this picture I stole from a post from 2009 the huge hole/gap at the left side of the picture. The carb heat flange is that one right there that is pointed upwards not a couple inches from that big open gap in the muffler shroud. Anything blowing around the cowling can come to rest in that upward facing gap and fall right into the carb heat hose. On the 180 horse the cowl cheeks are a bit wider and I suspect the bushwheels threw some stuff into the cowling from the rear.

Besides debris, there really isn't anything keeping the carb heat from pulling cold air through that gap so the carb heat drop is normally only 50rpm or even less on a cold day. The stock PA-18 exhaust system by comparison has a fully enclosed muffler shroud with welded on end caps and no big openings like this to collect debris in.
 

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Carb heat comes from the end of the muffler shroud where the screw is that holds the end cap on. That big open piece is something someone added to the pipe. Carb heat inlets have 2" or bigger SCAT holes feeding them that can allow stuff in.
 
Crash said:
View attachment 57132

Nope, end cap isn't missing. You can see in this picture I stole from a post from 2009 the huge hole/gap at the left side of the picture. The carb heat flange is that one right there that is pointed upwards not a couple inches from that big open gap in the muffler shroud. Anything blowing around the cowling can come to rest in that upward facing gap and fall right into the carb heat hose. On the 180 horse the cowl cheeks are a bit wider and I suspect the bushwheels threw some stuff into the cowling from the rear.

Besides debris, there really isn't anything keeping the carb heat from pulling cold air through that gap so the carb heat drop is normally only 50rpm or even less on a cold day. The stock PA-18 exhaust system by comparison has a fully enclosed muffler shroud with welded on end caps and no big openings like this to collect debris in.
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The picture you posted is a home made adapter. If you look closely you can see a screen in there, much like how the carb heat on a 172 is
 
Yeah. The Sutton on my O-320 certainly doesn’t have that.


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Farther left, not the heat robber that was added. I'm talking about the opening that it supposedly pulls air from for "carb heat". Kind of a poor design to pull air from the end where it only goes a few inches around the exhaust.
 
Crash said:
Farther left, not the heat robber that was added. I'm talking about the opening that it supposedly pulls air from for "carb heat". Kind of a poor design to pull air from the end where it only goes a few inches around the exhaust.
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If i remember right it was originally certified on grummans. How in the world did that ever get certified :roll:
 
Yep, Grumman Tiger exhaust. I would swap it out for a stock or Atlee if you are worried about rocks. You could also put a screen over the inlet SCAT going to the carb heat box. Look at the stock inlet, it can suck all kinds of stuff I guess. Have installed a lot of Sutton exhausts over the years and haven't had a complaint about the carb heat issue or sucking in debris. I like mine. Can't really see the tires throwing rocks in the cowl door outlets but I guess stranger things have happened. They sure throw rocks into my prop, all the my dings are in line with the tires. Most of the mud and rocks I get are on the bottom of my wings and flaps.
Here is the carb heat inlet on mine.
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The end plate I was referring to.
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You could put a screen in here.
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Don't see the tires throwing stuff up inside the cowl but stranger things have been known to happened.
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Steve Pierce said:
You could put a screen in here.
View attachment 57137
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That's exactly what was done and the opening I was talking about. Tack weld some screen on to keep debris out. Just kind of scary there's such a direct line from outside the exhaust to the carb heat flange. Even worse it's facing upwards so anything that falls in is not likely to come out.

Just a gripe about the exhaust system and the cause of a couple thousand dollar repair. Would be great if sutton would put some screen on there preventatively. Otherwise the Sutton exhaust has worked great and removes a good chunk of weight from the plane.
 
Crash said:
That's exactly what was done and the opening I was talking about. Tack weld some screen on to keep debris out. Just kind of scary there's such a direct line from outside the exhaust to the carb heat flange. Even worse it's facing upwards so anything that falls in is not likely to come out. Just a gripe about the exhaust system and the cause of a couple thousand dollar repair. Would be great if sutton would put some screen on there preventatively. Otherwise the Sutton exhaust has worked great and removes a good chunk of weight from the plane.
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Take a look at your j-3 airbox when you have the cowl off, it's open to the world on the bottom, if you're half open you could suck some crap through too. Or if there is something sitting on the bottom of the box and you move the carb heat handle. Seems like this isn't a problem? I guess if you're that worried, and flying off a very dusty spot, maybe don't use unfiltered air?
 
How about two of these back to back with a metal screen between. Put in SCAT hose.

Gary
 

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RaisedByWolves said:
Take a look at your j-3 airbox when you have the cowl off, it's open to the world on the bottom, if you're half open you could suck some crap through too. Or if there is something sitting on the bottom of the box and you move the carb heat handle. Seems like this isn't a problem? I guess if you're that worried, and flying off a very dusty spot, maybe don't use unfiltered air?
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Yep, the airbox is open at the bottom. Don't need to have the cowl off to see that. Doubt you can suck anything in through the airbox bottom tube though as that's where the carb heat is dumped out of when it's off. You would have to have the carb heat half on or off to have the flapper in a position to suck up dirt.

Not sure the point you're trying to make there. I don't taxi around with the carb heat half on and if the control is in either full on or off you're either pulling filtered air or you're pulling air that has been through a pretty extensive path to get there. The Sutton has a big hole in the shroud that has a straight shot to the carb heat hose and even worse is pointed upwards like a cup so anything that falls in isn't going to go anywhere but into the carb heat intake.
 
Crash said:
That's exactly what was done and the opening I was talking about. Tack weld some screen on to keep debris out. Just kind of scary there's such a direct line from outside the exhaust to the carb heat flange. Even worse it's facing upwards so anything that falls in is not likely to come out.

Just a gripe about the exhaust system and the cause of a couple thousand dollar repair. Would be great if sutton would put some screen on there preventatively. Otherwise the Sutton exhaust has worked great and removes a good chunk of weight from the plane.
Click to expand...

I was perusing my Sutton exhaust installation paperwork and I can’t seem to find where it says which of the two side by side SCAT flange holes on bottom of muffler shroud should be used for what purpose. I just switched them, outboard “open to the mercy of whatever wants to jump in” hole is attached to the cabin heat mechanism. Inboard hole which has no direct access (take that back, unless it enters open area misses cabin air hole and takes a right) is used for carb heat. I get a decent rpm drop when carb heat is used as well. Cabin heat is still good.
 

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Outboard is carb heat, smaller area, right side is cabin heat. They get mixed up sometimes and the pilot complains of poor cabin heat.
 
My ex does say I’m cold blooded. I’m happy with the heat and I fly quite a bit in the winter. Then again anything above 65 and I start sweating….maybe I am cold blooded.

I’m not familiar with any other exhaust type other than a Sutton. So does the shroud tubing arrangement correspond to the air inlet order on the forward baffling in cowl inlets? I originally switched those SCAT TUBES not for debris protection, but to get a better carb heat rise (barely noticeable). Which it did considerably (130+/- rpm).
 
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Not sure how much room there is but a coiled door spring wrapped and tied around the nearby exhaust header will pull off more heat

Gary
 
For $hits and grins. Sutton uses that opening for inlet air for the carb heat. The chambers of the muffler are separated. The stock muffler is sectioned off as well and uses the pick up from the right rear baffle to draw air. Those June bugs were determined. ;)
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The two june bugs - one was in a Citabira, the other was in a champ... hmmmmmm some similarities there...

sj
 
Gordon Misch said:
I have the short mount on my -12, and Sutton exhaust. It all fits fine. Enjoy!
Click to expand...

I’m at the point of putting my cowling on and the lower cowling rails are hitting the exhaust shroud. Would you have any photos o your installation? The only way I can see of making it work is to notch out the top of the rails near the shroud. It’s a very close tolerance. I think 1/4” off the top of the rail and it work.
 
MEM-PA12 said:
I’m at the point of putting my cowling on and the lower cowling rails are hitting the exhaust shroud. Would you have any photos o your installation? The only way I can see of making it work is to notch out the top of the rails near the shroud. It’s a very close tolerance. I think 1/4” off the top of the rail and it work.
Click to expand...

Are your mounts sagging?


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Eferr said:
Hey folks, just upgrading to an O-360 C4P. Talked with the folks at Sutton who informed me that with the C4P the sump is a little bit deeper and I may need 1/4”extensions to attach the pipes. Any of you folks have experience with this? Any recommendations are certainly welcome.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
Click to expand...


Did you end up using the exhaust? I have a cub with a later sump on it with the symmetrical risers and it's hitting the sump. Sutton said to measure how much room you need but don't have them made too long. Waiting for some help to hold the muffler while i measure. The joys of working alone. I was wondering if anyone has used the longer risers and how much longer they were
 
RaisedByWolves said:
Did you end up using the exhaust? I have a cub with a later sump on it with the symmetrical risers and it's hitting the sump. Sutton said to measure how much room you need but don't have them made too long. Waiting for some help to hold the muffler while i measure. The joys of working alone. I was wondering if anyone has used the longer risers and how much longer they were
Click to expand...

I did. And I can’t for the life of me remember if if longer risers were needed. I can double-check.


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