Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 73

Thread: windy outside..palmer ak?

  1. #1
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like

    windy outside..palmer ak?

    wow looks like breezy out in palmer ak this morning/last night, 69kt= 79.4mph gusts now that's gotta be bone chilling at 19 out(there, -5 in anch here now, but merrill say 19 a mile away go figure!)...

    http://pafc.arh.noaa.gov/obs.php?stnid=paaq&phours=18

    wasilla is not reporting since 5pm... any observations?

    everyone still got planes? roofs? out there?

  2. #2
    shouldhunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Chugiak, Ak
    Posts
    74
    Post Thanks / Like

    yep

    I went to go flying yesterday after 1.5 hours of preheating and thawing and ended up turning around and coming back to birchwood. Was funny, winds where 180 degrees difffent at 1000 feet than on the ground, but when I headed across the inlet, I was flying sidewards. When headed into the wind, my airspeed indicator read 105 mph and my gps read 29 mph ground speed. And lets not talk about the bumps. I guess I should of check for an Airmet.

    Terry

  3. #3
    marker60's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Wasilla, Ak
    Posts
    105
    Post Thanks / Like
    I tried to move the Cub into a hangar at Wasilla for the annual yesterday. Took the first rope off the wing and the plane went sideways! Lashed it back down and went home. No way was I going to try taxiing, let alone flying!

  4. #4
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    So i get to birchwood and check on planes at a hanger where owner is out of town.... Someone left a plane parked there this weekend not tied down at all luckly it didn't flip into terrys plane... Gust to 36 knots here. Some people!
    And this guy lives in palmer where his windows must be rattling at home, i wounder when he wil remember he didn't tie it down.. Or whats up????

  5. #5
    cubflier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    1,267
    Post Thanks / Like
    We were close to loosing one at Palmer yesterday. It was tied loosely with very thin rope. I went and got a pile of real rope that he could use. I went by later and it was all lashed to his truck so I hope it survived the night. It looked like it would.

    I hate to see good airplanes get gobbled by the wind, but every year some do.

    Jerry
    If it looks smooth...it might be

    If it looks rough...it is!!

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like
    Spent a few hours observing and watching at Wasilla this morning. My Tcraft was flying occassionally although not as much as another Tcraft who has a LOT... of slack in his ropes. I think he is better off that way rather than being lashed tight though. The heavier aircraft are staying put,with the tails of some cubs raising.

    No reporting at Wasilla as Jerry mentioned. After watching the planes fly with neutral elevator I am guessing 40 MPH with gusts of 50 MPH or so.

    While on the subject...how many off you lash tight or let them fly or some where in between? I am sure this has been covered before and a search would reveal many methods but it is always nice to hear a fresh perspective

  7. #7
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by hooligan
    ... Tcraft who has a LOT... of slack in his ropes. I think he is better off that way rather than being lashed tight though..
    was always neat visiting Egegik when wind was blowing and see all the planes tied down but flying off the ground a bit, just happy..... so do those count as airframe flight hours

  8. #8
    StewartB
    Guest
    I just drove in from Willow pulling a 24' enclosed snowgo trailer. The wind starts around the Big Lake cutoff and is friggin howling across the Parks from Seward Meridian to the hiway interchange. It was a real handful keeping the truck on the road from where Philo's used to be down to the hospital. The wind is making the temps much warmer. It's -17 in Willow and +10 in Wasilla. Palmer was reporting winds @ 42 gusting to 70. I believe it!

    I tie my planes down snug. Even more so when I anticipate strong winds.

    SB

  9. #9
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by StewartB
    I just drove in from Willow pulling a 24' enclosed snowgo trailer. The wind starts around the Big Lake cutoff and is friggin howling across the Parks from Seward Meridian to the hiway interchange. It was a real handful keeping the truck on the road from where Philo's used to be down to the hospital. The wind is making the temps much warmer. ...
    SB
    I take it you were in the slow lane in case your trailer weathervaned so you didn't clear the other 2 lanes of the road!

  10. #10
    StewartB
    Guest
    It blew all weekend out on the river. Yesterday I was putzing up a swamp on a snowgo at about 20mph and a Cub passing above me couldn't keep up. I'm not exaggerating!

    Stewart

  11. #11
    16-bravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    wasilla, ak
    Posts
    415
    Post Thanks / Like
    Here is what I found at Palmer Airport today. A sad day for a fellow cubber.








  12. #12
    Scooter7779h's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Anchorage, Alaska
    Posts
    981
    Post Thanks / Like
    The only good thing you could say about those photos, is that it will be easy to get at cleaning that belly. Don't have to bend over to do it.

    Sad, I feel for the guy. It was honking in Palmer today, I some observations with gusts into the 80 knots. I went out to MRI ski strip last night at 9pm, it was blowing hard (gusting above 25k). Nobody else ouit there taking their winter covers off or checking ropes. I took several sets of covers off that were wrecking ailerons and put them in the cubs through their window. When I checked again after work, no sign that many had been out to check their planes. I just don't understand that some people ignore their planes when the wind blows.

    Keeps the mechanics and rebuild shops in business I guess.
    =========
    PA-12 fan

  13. #13
    16-bravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    wasilla, ak
    Posts
    415
    Post Thanks / Like
    The ropes didn't break on it, the wingstrut attach points ripped right out of the wing. I think that had he had the Atlee tiedowns installed it would have still been sitting there intact. Just my opinion though. You can actually see in one of my pics that the rope is still tied to the wing strut.

  14. #14
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    [quote="16-bravo"]Here is what I found at Palmer Airport today. A sad day for a fellow cubber.
    ....


    so is that the tie-down rope still tied to left front strut & tie down ring lying on ground?????

    looks like it broke strut attach out /off of wing, good selling point for the atlee beef-ups, or why to only use atlees hurricane tie-downs.....

    was yesterday looking at and tring to decide if i would put the old regular tie-down rings back on this project since it also has the hurricane ones.. think that picture helped me decide!

  15. #15
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by 16-bravo
    The ropes didn't break on it, the wingstrut attach points ripped right out of the wing. I think that had he had the Atlee tiedowns installed it would have still been sitting there intact. Just my opinion though. You can actually see in one of my pics that the rope is still tied to the wing strut.
    yup, it would have been just fine!

    And there is one worse scenario, is strut attach gets damaged by high wind like this but doesnt break till later, in flight....

    mvivon? can tell story of that one....

  16. #16
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    you want these!



    Aircraft Wing Tie Down Brackets
    P/N 3197-1

    http://www.fadodge.com

    get them, use them...

    you can install on a covered wing with a little work, two inspection rings and one small patch on top of wing.....

    also this is a nice big shackle I use now 3/8" #SCP 43180, that you can fit any rope through...
    http://www.discountmarinesupplies.co...06&group=71314



    you can use a AN bolt & Nut to mount it if you wish, much stronger..

  17. #17
    16-bravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    wasilla, ak
    Posts
    415
    Post Thanks / Like
    Ya that would be really bad. Glad I put the Atlee tiedowns on at rebuild.

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    50
    Post Thanks / Like

    hangars?

    I always wondered why there aren't more hangars in Alaska, and why it was so hard to sell the ones they built in Palmer. They need to build more simple ones. For some reason they over build them and then no one can afford them.

    Why spend 125k on a hangar for a 80k plane? We don't need commercial ones just something to keep the snow and wind off. No heat, no bathrooms, no drains, just a box. Just my two cents though.

    The t-hangars at Merrill are selling for 125-129k, and the association dues/taxes are almost 300 a month. O'well I guess I can dream.

  19. #19
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: hangars?

    Quote Originally Posted by flyinalaska
    I for a 80k plane?
    ...... might not be a 80k plane after you rebuild it cause wind killed it or you wrecked it, might be 80k +repairs,

    one customer that had 250k into cub over time counting all the times they had to rebuild it....
    heres it going into jig last time with me..(me ~100 lbs lighter then too!)

  20. #20
    cubflier's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Palmer, AK
    Posts
    1,267
    Post Thanks / Like
    I had just pulled up when 16 B was taking those shots. I know the owner of the cub. He's a real nice guy and I hate to see this kind of thing happen.

    On the good news front we were able to get a rope come-a-long on the 172 over at Tom Bishops and pull it back down and secure it before the wing hit the ground. It's nice to run into people that won't just drive by a loose plane. There were three of us on the 172 and it is safe now.

    Hopefully the winds will die down at midnight like predicted but at the moment I have white caps in my toilet.

    Jerry
    If it looks smooth...it might be

    If it looks rough...it is!!

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Posts
    325
    Post Thanks / Like

  22. #22
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    as usual the adn news got it wrong... the plane is still tied down nice.... just that most of the plane is not still attached to that part...

    but, onto lessons, always remember to look up front lift strut and make sure strut attach bracket is has not been bent and is in line with strut.... after hard wind or time away from plane......

  23. #23
    16-bravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    wasilla, ak
    Posts
    415
    Post Thanks / Like
    Still ripping wind here in Wasilla, I'm ready for it to quit anytime now.

  24. #24
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by 16-bravo
    Still ripping wind here in Wasilla, I'm ready for it to quit anytime now.
    Just makes you want a wind generator... If dont rip the blades off...

  25. #25
    gpepperd's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Wasilla, Alaska
    Posts
    211
    Post Thanks / Like

    windy outside..palmer ak?

    As a 35 year survivor of valley windstorms I have learned some things that help. 1st of all pilots need to check their airplanes very frequently during a wind event as ropes loosen, someone upwind may have issues that will affect your craft, etc. During the largest windstorm I have ever witnessed, in the late 70's, there were about 30 airplanes in Palmer to match yesterdays. There were 10 or 15 at the old Wasilla airport as well. Many of the planes had the wing attach fitting ripped clear out of the wing and bye bye plane. This underscores the need for over-the-spar tie down points like Mike has shown. You can let your tail fly as long as your wings are tied straight down but if you are tied with ropes forward you must tie the tail or the wind will pull the plane forward and up to the limits of the rope. I was tied to a dock on Lake Lucille with too long of ropes and tail not tied. The wind pulled my plane forward and flew it to the heights of the rope. Between gusts it would drop my plane unevenly until I finally had a bent rear spar from the tip hitting the snow. I was out of state at the time and not very happy when I returned. I also had Lake Lucille winds bend my wing attach fittings one winter and only saved it by appyling carpet covered 2x4's on the leading edge to spoil the lift. The carpeted 2x4's were standard tie down procedure until I got the over spar tie downs. That allows you to spoil lift without having wing covers flapping around doing their own brand of damage. Atlee's wing attach fitting reinforcement plates also help with that problem. Anyone tied outside during a major windstorm should inspect their wing attach points very carefully and mack sure they have not been bent down at all. Those are stressed for tension of lift, not the constant 90 degree pull of a tie down rope. Finally, in 2000 my bird moved inside and that is the best way to survive the windstorms and sleep at night. My $.02. Greg
    Good judgment comes from experience, and a lot of
    that comes from bad judgment. will rodgers

    "Anyone who would give up liberty for safety deserves neither" Ben Franklin

  26. #26

    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Alaska/NE Washington
    Posts
    361
    Post Thanks / Like
    I know I am not alone when I'm tying down the planes around me , only to protect my plane from loose planes and parts. This happens every year. On the other hand I do see alot of not frequently seen friends out watching their planes, durning the windstorms and most often late at night.
    pete

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like
    Greg, I remember the storm of '77 or maybe '78 ...? My cousin and I were co-owners of a Stinson. We made the cover picture of the Frontierman adding rope to keep it from flying away. If I remember right we had two or three weeks of low temps and high winds. All roads were drifting in...A real mess.We had several airplanes balled up at Palmer. Sad situation!

    The decision on which method to use to tie down is based on the airplanes weight, CG, wing area, etc. The gust factor is the wild card. In the Mat Valley we commonly see 20 to 30 mph difference between the sustained wind and gusts. Stewart says he lashes his down tight and I think that is the way to go as too much slack in ropes can cause a high G jerk when a gust hits and cause damage.

    The storm of the last couple of days caught me off guard and I was scrambling to keep my TCraft in one piece. It has a huge wing and the plane is just over 800 pounds. The best method I could devise was to tie down with minimal slack with full up elavator and a rachet strap kept taught from each tie down to the gear step. The straps kept the tail from jerking and sashaying from quartering gusts.

    Not much sleep lately as a result of this storm. I know better than to be caught in an unprotected area. Never the less I allowed it to happen.


    Jim

  28. #28
    articfox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Palmer Alaska
    Posts
    214
    Post Thanks / Like

    Palmer wind

    Well here is my two cents for what it is worth. I spent all night outside trying to keep my planes tied down and a few others but I have learned a few lessons. Spar strap tie downs work. Every one of my pipers had pulled rings. If I didn't have fuel trucks, vans and the like in front of my planes, there would have been more damage like the other poor chap. The biggest thing that would have saved me is if the tie downs were aligned not with the prevailing wind but with the large velocity wind direction(if that makes sense). The wind blew 010-020 most of the night at 80plus. The tied downs are all at 050. The wind was blocked from the main part of the wings but the damage to the tie down/spar, etc. came from the gust hitting the tail and trying to spin the aircraft. As the airplanes hopped sideways and torqued on that upwind spar fitting it simply twisted it right out of the airplane. If I had the Atlee stuff, it would have not been a problem, except in the rudder where it was bouncing around. (check the rudder cable bolts, I have new bolts with wear from the wind). Lastly, for hours I watched and re-roped airplanes down because they didn't have the tails of the rope tied. As the wind blew the tails flicked around and untied themselves. EVERY ONE OF MY (12) RATCHET STRAPS FAILED they were the small ones I had as backups to the ropes. The big straps all survived. By the way I fell on my ass at 3 am trying to see what the crash was and slid across 50 feet of grass, hit ice sped up then hit dry pavement. It took me 200 feet to slow down. Thank god for carharts.

  29. #29
    articfox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Palmer Alaska
    Posts
    214
    Post Thanks / Like
    Oh, the untied tail thing. When the wind blows the airplane without the tail tied down, it will push it rearward until the pressure of the wind overcomes the airplanes ability to right itself and it will end up on the nose (if the wind is strong enough). Seen it many times. It is o.k. if it is a gentle 40 mile a hour. But, 70-80-90 it will go on its nose.

  30. #30
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by articfox
    Oh, the untied tail thing. When the wind blows the airplane without the tail tied down, it will push it rearward until the pressure of the wind overcomes the airplanes ability to right itself and it will end up on the nose (if the wind is strong enough). Seen it many times. It is o.k. if it is a gentle 40 mile a hour. But, 70-80-90 it will go on its nose.
    like this....



    not a scratch on this t-craft ++.... many years ago...

  31. #31
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: Palmer wind

    Quote Originally Posted by articfox
    ...EVERY ONE OF MY (12) RATCHET STRAPS FAILED....
    ya there's a few guys here that use them,

    their neighbors should shoot them.....

    nice for holding i mobile loads down, not worth a shi% holding a plane down. in a wind storm....

  32. #32
    articfox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Palmer Alaska
    Posts
    214
    Post Thanks / Like
    Just like that. The bottom of the cowl/cleaner take a beating??

  33. #33
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by articfox
    Just like that. The bottom of the cowl/cleaner take a beating??
    nope

    it was sitting on prop flange and tires!!!

    note also he missed that crucial step of tying the stick back.....

  34. #34

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yep... around 40 mph wind sustained, or extended gust, it was on its nose.




    note also he missed that crucial step of tying the stick back....

  35. #35

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like
    I would not trust the rachet straps for tie-down either. They are just the ticket for dampening abrupt tail swing though. I used them from the tie downs on the ground straight to the gear gusset. I used just enough tension to make them taught. Very little stress on the straps as I did not have to retighten. It made tail movement minimal and controlled. Good bungees with a section of rope to achieve the right tension could be substituted. The nice thing about the ratches is that over the ability to add more tension if and when needed.

  36. #36
    shouldhunt's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Chugiak, Ak
    Posts
    74
    Post Thanks / Like

    What seems to work

    Did anyone know if he had insurance, I sure hope so.

    As far as taking care of my plane in the wind. What do you think about my process.

    1st, I think it has been stated that checking on the plane is most important. 2nd, I always try to put my seat belt and bungee over my stick to help save my moving parts. I elevated my tail with a milk create, and tied it down with double ropes. I put gust locks on flaps, ailerons, and the elevator(going to make one for the rudder). Unfortunity I currently have south facing parking, having my plane closer to a flying attitude really reduced the movement from the wind due to less surface. I then use rachet straps and the ropes over the sturts for safety. And for kicks alway turn my prop to 3 and 9 oclock.

    Just learning, but try to learn from others mistakes.

  37. #37

    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    159
    Post Thanks / Like

    Re: What seems to work

    I had a situation in Birchwood in 1982 with my 170. I put a saw horse and blankets under the tail to achieve as close to a zero angle of attack as I could perceive by watching the airplanes response. The Path of least resistance was my goal. I do not believe there was any reported wind there at that time but I am sure it was 80 mph with higher gusts. The mistake I made was not to keep the tail from sashaying. The tail fell off the sawhorse when I was trying to get some sleep and the horse blew away. The airplane survived. If I had put straps from the gear to the ground tie-downs(wing) this would have prevented the wild swing of the tail, hence, not allowing this to happen. Twisting force can certainly loosen ropes and put more stress on the strut/wing tie-down attach points.

    Quote Originally Posted by shouldhunt
    Did anyone know if he had insurance, I sure hope so.

    As far as taking care of my plane in the wind. What do you think about my process.

    1st, I think it has been stated that checking on the plane is most important. 2nd, I always try to put my seat belt and bungee over my stick to help save my moving parts. I elevated my tail with a milk create, and tied it down with double ropes. I put gust locks on flaps, ailerons, and the elevator(going to make one for the rudder). Unfortunity I currently have south facing parking, having my plane closer to a flying attitude really reduced the movement from the wind due to less surface. I then use rachet straps and the ropes over the sturts for safety. And for kicks alway turn my prop to 3 and 9 oclock.

    Just learning, but try to learn from others mistakes.

  38. #38
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    Quote Originally Posted by mike mcs repair
    ......trying to decide if i would put the old regular tie-down rings back on this project since it also has the hurricane ones....

    well, another thought came to me,

    the original(well -18 style) tie downs will have to go back on...... so he will be able to use a wing jack to switch skis & tires.... or else he would be stuck hanging it to do that...

  39. #39
    Coyote Ugly's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Middle of Nevada
    Posts
    541
    Post Thanks / Like
    delete
    "Pops Dory"
    They used to say there are no old, bold pilots, Hell, looka here...

  40. #40
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    chugiak AK
    Posts
    10,083
    Post Thanks / Like
    breezy out... check them tiedowns.....

    found one 180 with one wing untied at birchwood, swung around into his cub, just starting to beat on it... we got that moved & tied down...

    hear someone is on mt. susitna with tie downs that wont hold, trying to hold the cub down by hand.... that don't sound promising....

    my niece helps/run a moving company, one of the semis had the roof ripped off on its way through valley heading for fairbanks...

    I had checked forecast yesterday morning and it looked like it was gonna be nice out, went out to camp up craggie creek in hatcher pass, and it snowed for 3 or 4 hours after I got there... and then started blowing...

Similar Threads

  1. It's windy tonight....
    By BES in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-03-2008, 04:44 AM
  2. Windy Tiedown
    By Josh in forum Tips and Tricks
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 11-22-2006, 01:23 PM
  3. Windy Pass
    By Brett Evans in forum The Art and Science of Flying
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 08-27-2006, 05:52 AM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •