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How thick should the ice be?

KingCub

Registered User
NW Indiana
This is the first winter in our cabin on a small like in northern Michigan. The lake arm in front of the cabin is oriented east-west and is fairly windswept of any snow accumulation. Any guidelines with respect to ice thickness before I consider landing the cub? 31" tundra tires. Unfortunately no skis this year.
 
Two of us flew yesterday. We landed on one lake where they were having motorcycle and 4 wheeler races with about 8" of ice. I think 6" + is enough

Tim
 
This is one of the toughest things about ski flying. I use a real simple test. If there are trucks and SUVs driving on the lakes, it is okay to land there. If a lake is too remote to have people driving on it, you just have to figure it out some other way.

There has been much written on the site about ski ops that is worth reading. Mike Vivion, who had 30 years of ski plane experience in AK can save you some tuition, if you read his stuff.

Ice thickness, while critical, is not the only thing to worry about. Overflow will cause you a lot of problems. Often, when there is a snow load on the lake, it will push water up and will create a layer of slush between the ice and the surface of the snow. On really cold days, if you land in this stuff, you can freeze down, creating a very difficult situation. Springs, sub-surfact flows, ice movement, snow load and who knows what else are all potential contributors. If you are not sure, be sure to drag your landing strip first, carrying plenty of power so you can takeoff if it turns out to be slushy, then come back around and land in your tracks. If they turn dark, stay the heck away.
 
Should have read more carefully to see that you are not on skis... You probably already know this but you will not have any traction with your big tires. They work great in shallow snow as long as you do not need any traction.
 
Tim, alot of lakes are just a river or large stream that gets dammed up to make lakes along it's lenth of flow over many miles, be carefull where the lakes narrow down because the water flow is running faster and the ice will be thinner where the flow is greater, Tooltime time and I go into a little lake in Saranac Lake NY but it's actually a flowing river and the lake is a cresent U shape and even though the larger bodies have a foot or more of ice some years even with the below zero temps [ Saranac Lake some day's is the coldest place in the lower 48 ]the narrow center part [ 150' wide ] will be slush or open water and the snowmobile's love to skim across it. my point is, ice is lots of fun but use your head.

Glenn
 
Tim,

This will be my first MI winter on skis. What lake in nothern MI are you landing on? I have a friend that told me they see planes on wheels landing on the ice of Lake Huron near Bois Blanc Island-next to Mackinac- to pay the Indians for white fish.

I spend time in Traverse City and would like to check out the lakes in northern MI as well. Perhaps a nothern MI fly in is on the horizon.

Bill
 
Here is a link to the US Army Corps of Engineers guidelines on ice thickness. http://www.mvp-wc.usace.army.mil/ice/ice_load.html

As others have noted, there are a LOT of variables when it comes to ice, and the ice can change as the season progresses.

A friend once fell through the river ice on the Porcupine River, where he'd been landing all winter, on well packed snow. This was in an outside bend of the river. Turns out there was no ice where he landed any more. The ice formed, thickened, then was covered with snow. The snow was compacted by snowmachines and ski planes, but the river continued to flow under the ice, and apparently eroded the ice from below till there was simply no ice left in that part of the river.

That's a pretty weird example, but the point is, there's ice, and then there's ice. Those Corps of Engineer guidelines are a pretty good starting point, though. Remember that airplanes have REALLY SMALL tires, compared to cars, trucks, etc. It's footprint vs weight that really matters, and most airplanes put down quite a bit of pressure per square inch.

Be careful, and have fun. It ain't rocket science.

MTV
 
Remember that landing is not parking. Those black tires absorb a lot of heat. You can mush even good thick ice if you are not careful. Move the plane every day and I put white covers on the tires if the sun is shining.


GR
 
Hi Tim and Bill,
Derek DeRuiter at Northwoods Aviation in Cadillac (MI) usually rents his J3 and PA18 on skis for a weekend sometime in Feb to a group from Chicago. They spend Sat and Sun just hopping rides on the surrounding lakes. If it is nice some of the local ski planes will show up also. Not really a fly in as such but lots of activity. I am sure you both would be welcome to join in. As of just before Christmas they had both on skis but were not yet landing on area lakes, fisherman were on the lakes though. Derek also does skiplane trainng and check outs if anyone is looking for time in a cub on skis.
Happy flying, Tim
 
Bill - Our cabin is on Lake Genesereth on the south part of Beaver Island. I would certainly be interested in other MI pilots who might be interested in a winter flyout. We fly out of NW Indiana, so a rendyvous further south for some winter flying could be a possibility as well.

Bat443 - Cadillac is a good destination from our parts as well. Might be fun to take some cub ski lessons from Dereck if he would rent his ski plane out to a fellow cubber.
 
Hi Tim,
I should have been more clear, Derek's airplanes are rentals, don't know if he does solo rentals, best to check with him. He uses them for tailwheel (J3) and seaplane (PA18) training in the summer. Also does ski and float installations and general maintenance. He has a web site.

Tim
 
Five inches of clear freshwater ice was always plenty for the 185 on wheels and skis, less for Cubs. White slobby ice not. Critical is knowing the local weather over sufficient time to make an assessment. Tracks are unreliable.
 
Kingcub, not sure about the ice question as I don't fly in the winter but I am located on Six Mile Lake about 40 mile east , south east of Beaver on the main land and fly out there in the summer on floats , Do you fly floats in the summer to your lake ? BTW I spudded a hole on the ice here and it's only about 4-5" thick at this time.

Erik
 
Tim- I am located near KPTK where the ice is 6-7" thick. I have a place near KTVC for the summer. So, I am based way south of Beaver Island.


bat443- I would be surprised if Derek will let the planes out solo. I used to rent his pa-18 on floats years ago, solo. However, I was told that a female pilot had an accident while renting solo and they ceased renting.
 
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