Need advice on purchase (first plane)

I would not buy a 50k airplane with only 50k in the pocket. I plan spending 10k or less right in the beginning to have the plane like I want. I just don't have 100k to spend right now on a perfect airplane.

It will be inspected by a certified mechanic for sure before anything



I'm not a Cessna kind of guy. But a good deal on one for my first plane would be ''ok'' for a couple years. I really want a STOL kind of plane. I have access to good field behind my house for winter flying on skis and a dock for summer on floats. Lakes and river all over Quebec. Fishing, hunting, an my dream flying to Alaska for a year or two.



This PA-12 was in Ontario since 1969 (no salt).

I'm not in a big hurry. It's just that fall and economic situation is working with me.


Received more pics of the -12....
No pics of the floats yet....












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15K for this dog would be fair. You will end up with no airplane and an empty wallet for the next 5 years even at that price.

CraigH said:

windy said:

There's usually a reason why any plane is for sale, PA-12, supercub, or Cessna. If they really were as "pristine" as their owners say they are, the planes wouldn't be for sale. Whichever plane you end up buying, make sure you've got some "maintenance reserves" set aside to fix it up the way you want it.

windy

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I'd have to take issue with you here. I've sold some petty damn nice airplanes, for reasonable prices, just because I wanted to try something different. I think anyone who ever saw either of my RV's, my Colt, my Citabria or my 170B would agree.

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Craig, Most of us fall in love with one and keep it. :lol:

Steve Pierce said:

Craig, Most of us fall in love with one and keep it. :lol:

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Says the man with a hangar full of non-flying projects.

. . . . . most of which look like a WHOLE lot less work than this PA12.

hey Oli,
I just saw a very very nice pa11 on ebay that can be bought for 41k with all the goodies and you could probably fly this cub for years with only spending pocket change. check it OUT!!
gary

Oli,
Hate to say this but I have looked at many planes over the years and they always look worse in person than in pictures. If this continues to be true I will have to agree with STMAWR14.....I would not walk away from this particular plane...I would RUN!!! Looks like a major money pit.
WW

Thanks again for your good advices. I won't spend a buck on this plane unless it seems right.

I'm still jealous of you guys in US for all the relatively cheap planes on the market. I'll try to have some good infos for importing one. I think I'm gonna convert my canadian pilot license to a US one.... Looks less expensive than buying a plane here... Gonna have to work my english speaking on the radio...

Hi Oli,

First, welcome to Supercub.org. I have been overwhelmed with the help and advice here. Truly a resource area of great people.

I imported a PA-12 into Canada this summer, and found that the experience was not as daunting as you might think. Unfortunately, there is no true "POH" for importing.

For reference, I paid Mid $40's US for a 1946 (approx 2900 hrs) with 2002 fabric, 2002 engine rebuild on a 150 hp (by a reputable shop) located in Alabama. Never saw it with my own eyes, never had a friend go look at it, bought it via pictures and pre-buy by a good shop in that area.

Getting it home to Vancouver was a story, but with a happy ending. Some of the members here were very helpful, and I am still impressed with the goodwill that is shown here to each other.

If I could figure how to put a picture in this post I would show you the bird. For now, here's a pic-http://picasaweb.google.com/eaglepilot77/PA12#5410152741233513346

I was looking for good fabric, good engine and no corrosion. After pulling the plane apart with my mechanic (he's very anal), we determined that what I got was a plane with good fabric, good engine and no corrosion and not much more.

Going through the import process can cost you more than just owning a U.S. registered plane, mostly because it forces you examine everything with a skeptical eye, and you have Transport Canada looking over your shoulder to make sure everything is done right. Kind of like a second (or third) opinion. My experience was that Transport was very helpful and had common sense approach when dealing with issues (mostly STC's). BTW, my Transport guy said that mine was his 2nd most difficult import-mostly paperwork issues.

If I can be of any help, please PM me, I would be happy to pass on any knowledge I may have gained. The offer holds true for any other Supercub.org member.

I will admit that I was stuck on a cub and nothing else would ever fit my mission. I looked the last 3-4 years for a cub of my liking and saw some really good deals on some -12's, -14's, and some C-170's that I wouldn't even consider because it wasn't a cub. Today I bought my very first airplane. A C-170 with 200 hours on a BJ's 0-360 and 200 hours on a new prop.
Bottom line, dont buy something you have to work on, even if you like to work on stuff. Buy something to fly, a cub, pacer, whatever, then go buy your project. Like everyone else, that's my .02 worth!
Greg

STMAWR14 said:

Virtually no used EDO 2000 float is worth 10K when you can buy brand new, anodized 2000 with hatches and all the latest mods and attachment gear for 15K directly from Kenmore.


See TAP's ad under "floats":

"EDO 2000's - $15,500 (New) While inventory lasts! For the following aircraft: C-170, C-172, 7GCBC, 8GCBC, PA-12, PA-18. (Husky A-1, Husky A-1A, Arctic Tern, Aeronca Sedan) Call for pricing. Floats include: Attach gear, spray rails, dual water rudders, spreader bars, retract system, steering system. Floats are 100% anodized, epoxy primed, and top coated with three coats of aluminum lacquer. Crating and shipping charges not included. Pricing good through December 31st, 2009. Contact EDO Floats, Eric Johanson, WA/."

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I was under the impression that this was only a come-on to get a few sold. Then the price was to go up a few thousand. If they are going to hold the price at $15k then clearly there are no used 2000s worth $10k, particularly an old set with the original PA-12 steel tube rigging.

These new photos show a lot more. Both fuel tanks have had leak issues, the cowl has had a lot of hard use, the oil cooler may be chaffing on the nose bowl, the fabric is cracked in many places. The plane is clearly 63 years old and has never been restored. The $15k which STMAWR14 mentions sounds generous.

Hey eaglepilot??

Could you tell me how much it cost you to import this bird and have it airworthy in Canada???



What is a oil cooler ''chaffing'' on the nose bowl?? leaking?

To much for this 12 !

I have one on here for sale with total rebuild Oshkosh winner and is ready to go for under 85K with floats and wheels and spare cruise prop. Mine looked like yours when I got it and cost 110K not including labor to rebuild .

Check it out
http://www.supercub.org/photoclass/showproduct.php?product=1338&sort=1&cat=500&page=1

Olibuilt said:

Hey eaglepilot??

What is a oil cooler ''chaffing'' on the nose bowl?? leaking?

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Notice that the oil cooler is very close to the opening in the nose bowl. There is a lot of black stain and it appears that the lower edge of the opening has changed it's shape. The black is likely aluminum powder generated from the rubbing which is mixed with a mixture of oil seepage and water. If this were to continue the oil cooler will rub through and develop a leak. This could happen on your ferry flight home from Ontario. No oil, no engine and possibly no airplane. Some of that territory is not conducive to forced landings.

From the pictures I classify this airplane as a RAT.

What about this dog?


1947 :: piper PA12 :: 0 320

Interior Description original dash nothing fancy 720 chanel radio ky92
Exterior Rating 6
Exterior Description rebuilt 1989 paint fading repainted wing tops 2007 floats in excellent shape no pumping from spring to fall
Observed Performance PA 18 tail 2000 CAP floats fishing pole tube , includes wheels, .
Hangared No
Damage History none
Full Logs Since New yes
Last Annual Date 13 jun 09
TTSN: 1345
Engine Time Main/Left 35 hrs SMOH
Engine / Prop Details LYC. 0 320 150 HP 35 hours on new engine. i have owned this A/C SINCE 1977 .SELLING DUE T0 HEALTH PROBLEMS

'' the brakes are in my basement with the wheels the fabric was done in 1989 so is going to need work in a few years engine all new except for the case it has approx 45 hours in it now, it was done by leveans in toronto who sent it to the factory in the states, ac is now out of the water and winterized''

Oli: That's a much more honest plane, but how much $$!
After seeing additional photo's run from the other!

I also agree with on comment above, don't be stuck on a particular plane. When I started I thought one particular model was exactly what I needed, but I bought something economical to fly to start, with some experience I've changed & would consider a few diff options. At the moment MY ideal plane, at the risk of public flogging from members here, would likely be a Areonca Sedan but then I looked at a relatively rare Luscombe 4 place (15A I believe) & would be quite happy with one of those. I find the SxS seating arrangment more to the passenger & my liking, who knows in a couple years you may find yourself in the same boat!

Patience is a virtue....I wish I had more :-?

I looked for a Luscombe 8E Sedan for a few years. Those are rare. Parts probably more so. Aeronca Sedans are very good airplanes. Especially with an 0-360 up front. If I was Olibuilt I'd try to forget the PA-12 jones unless a great plane appears. 12s are money magnets. Even relatively good ones. Look for a PA-11, PA-18-90, Pacer, Champ or newer 7 series variant, or a T-Craft. Those are value leaders. I'd never DQ a good 172, either. Boring? For any new pilot to say that makes me think boring might serve him well. The 172 is probably the best investment you can hope for. Buy it, fly it. sell it to the next guy who wants to build time. Great airplanes.

SB

Don't forget to look at Scouts....
There is a Canadian '74 8GCBC on Barnstormers for 50K. You will be getting a 30 year newer plane that still has factory support. Sight unseen, I would take this plane over a PA12 any day. You'll have to find some floats, but that should not be hard in your area.

I would not recommend a PA12 as your first plane. There are some nice ones out there that have been completely restored, but will be priced accordingly. There are far to many 60 year old rolling scrap heaps out there, and you don't want to get stuck with one.

Don't forget to look for honest PA18's, it is a buyers market if you have patience and cash.

50K CD equals 47,911. USD today. I still think you can get a very nice low maintenance aircraft for that kind of money. The Scout and 90HP 18's both excellent choices. There have been fully restored 90 HP cubs for around this money. Good time builder and a heck of lot of fun.

Skywagon8,

Kenmore has lowered the price of the new EDO 2000s from 19,500 to 15,500 over the past few years because they pass on the manufacturing savings to the consumer -- rather than using it to line their pockets -- and they would rather the fleet be rid of the older, sometimes illegally repaired/rebuilt, product.

They are doing the same with the big Beaver floats. Too many have unapproved/uncertified parts and they are trying to make them economically unprofitable to keep in service. I think they are buying back the older sets in trade on new ones, too.

I think it is a liability issue as they are the TC holder of EDO floats.

It could be also based upon the competition from Aerocet's straight 2100s and Wipaire's 2100 amphibs.

I know that Canadian money is good these days. The problem is importing an aircraft from the states.

-$5-7,000 to import to Canada including paperwork
-$1,000, 406 ELT

-$5-10,000 just to bring the aircraft to freaking ''Transport Canada'' standards

That mean it's approximately 10-15K or even more , regardless or the original purchase price.

I would be happy with any kind of aircraft in my backyard for now....

I just don't want to buy a time builder type of aircraft to limit my needs. I want an aircraft with STOL capabilities, 2 places with good cargo weight to spare, floats in a very near future and skis for the winter. I plan flying more than once a week.

Scout seems like great aircraft but I didn't found one on my budget yet...

Be honest with what your budget is if you want our help. If you can afford a plane ready to go, that's one thing. If your think you can get a dog into condition that you would fly your children in for 10K, you're nuts.

Wake up and smell the realities! We are trying to help. If you sandbag us, you will lose your credibility and waste our time.

Oli,

I'm sorry, but maybe I gave you the wrong impression in my PM, and in the interests of clarity for all who are following this thread, let me be very clear:


The original budget my mechanic quoted before importing the plane was $5-7,000-this included an intense annual, all Transport Canada Paperwork, a 406 ELT, a overhauled prop. As I stated, in my PM, this budget was met.

Secondly, it did not take $5-10,000 to bring the plane up to "Freaking Transport Canada" standards, they had been satisfied in the original budget. This money was spent to bring it up to MY standards, such that I would put my butt in the seat and trust the plane to take me where I want to go.

Just to be clear.

Sorry for my misunderstanding... I'm not trying to teach or offend anybody here. I'm here to learn and trust your knowledge.


My budget for a mechanically trusted aircraft, Canadian registered, esthetically lookin or not, on floats , with medium STOL capabilities, around 600lbs useful load is around 60k.

Olibuilt said:

Sorry for my misunderstanding... I'm not trying to teach or offend anybody here. I'm here to learn and trust your knowledge.


My budget for a mechanically trusted aircraft, Canadian registered, esthetically lookin or not, on floats , with medium STOL capabilities, around 600lbs useful load is around 60k.

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Never know???

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Thanks but 1500 miles from home.


How many years should I expect a fabric to last on a float plane never hangared ???


What you guy think about this plane?? Should I go give a look? Looks ok to me (compared to the withe and red PA-12) with the pics I have....

Kennedy has owned that for 25+ years... why is he selling?

clamp on float fittings almost always caused tube corrosion and collapse of the structure over time.

The one photo doesn't tell anything. I know there are a lot of beautiful hookers out there with HIV/AIDS and you would never know it.

Kennedy has owned that for 25+ years... why is he selling?

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You know the guy or the aircraft??????? selling it due to health problem.




There is more pic of the same aircraft in top of the page. I should receive a couple more tomorrow showing closup and bad spots...


Thanks for the infos on tube clamps. I will remove them to see if any corrosion.


The thing is the owner says he painted parts of the airplane and paint it started to peel off...