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Thread: Need advice on purchase (first plane)

  1. #41
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    These new photos show a lot more. Both fuel tanks have had leak issues, the cowl has had a lot of hard use, the oil cooler may be chaffing on the nose bowl, the fabric is cracked in many places. The plane is clearly 63 years old and has never been restored. The $15k which STMAWR14 mentions sounds generous.
    N1PA

  2. #42
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Hey eaglepilot??

    Could you tell me how much it cost you to import this bird and have it airworthy in Canada???



    What is a oil cooler ''chaffing'' on the nose bowl?? leaking?

  3. #43
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    To much for this 12 !

    I have one on here for sale with total rebuild Oshkosh winner and is ready to go for under 85K with floats and wheels and spare cruise prop. Mine looked like yours when I got it and cost 110K not including labor to rebuild .

    Check it out
    http://www.supercub.org/photoclass/s...cat=500&page=1

  4. #44
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt
    Hey eaglepilot??

    What is a oil cooler ''chaffing'' on the nose bowl?? leaking?
    Notice that the oil cooler is very close to the opening in the nose bowl. There is a lot of black stain and it appears that the lower edge of the opening has changed it's shape. The black is likely aluminum powder generated from the rubbing which is mixed with a mixture of oil seepage and water. If this were to continue the oil cooler will rub through and develop a leak. This could happen on your ferry flight home from Ontario. No oil, no engine and possibly no airplane. Some of that territory is not conducive to forced landings.

    From the pictures I classify this airplane as a RAT.
    N1PA

  5. #45
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    What about this dog?


    1947 :: piper PA12 :: 0 320

    Interior Description original dash nothing fancy 720 chanel radio ky92
    Exterior Rating 6
    Exterior Description rebuilt 1989 paint fading repainted wing tops 2007 floats in excellent shape no pumping from spring to fall
    Observed Performance PA 18 tail 2000 CAP floats fishing pole tube , includes wheels, .
    Hangared No
    Damage History none
    Full Logs Since New yes
    Last Annual Date 13 jun 09
    TTSN: 1345
    Engine Time Main/Left 35 hrs SMOH
    Engine / Prop Details LYC. 0 320 150 HP 35 hours on new engine. i have owned this A/C SINCE 1977 .SELLING DUE T0 HEALTH PROBLEMS

    '' the brakes are in my basement with the wheels the fabric was done in 1989 so is going to need work in a few years engine all new except for the case it has approx 45 hours in it now, it was done by leveans in toronto who sent it to the factory in the states, ac is now out of the water and winterized''








  6. #46

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    Oli: That's a much more honest plane, but how much $$!
    After seeing additional photo's run from the other!

    I also agree with on comment above, don't be stuck on a particular plane. When I started I thought one particular model was exactly what I needed, but I bought something economical to fly to start, with some experience I've changed & would consider a few diff options. At the moment MY ideal plane, at the risk of public flogging from members here, would likely be a Areonca Sedan but then I looked at a relatively rare Luscombe 4 place (15A I believe) & would be quite happy with one of those. I find the SxS seating arrangment more to the passenger & my liking, who knows in a couple years you may find yourself in the same boat!

    Patience is a virtue....I wish I had more

  7. #47
    StewartB
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    I looked for a Luscombe 8E Sedan for a few years. Those are rare. Parts probably more so. Aeronca Sedans are very good airplanes. Especially with an 0-360 up front. If I was Olibuilt I'd try to forget the PA-12 jones unless a great plane appears. 12s are money magnets. Even relatively good ones. Look for a PA-11, PA-18-90, Pacer, Champ or newer 7 series variant, or a T-Craft. Those are value leaders. I'd never DQ a good 172, either. Boring? For any new pilot to say that makes me think boring might serve him well. The 172 is probably the best investment you can hope for. Buy it, fly it. sell it to the next guy who wants to build time. Great airplanes.

    SB

  8. #48
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    Don't forget to look at Scouts....
    There is a Canadian '74 8GCBC on Barnstormers for 50K. You will be getting a 30 year newer plane that still has factory support. Sight unseen, I would take this plane over a PA12 any day. You'll have to find some floats, but that should not be hard in your area.

    I would not recommend a PA12 as your first plane. There are some nice ones out there that have been completely restored, but will be priced accordingly. There are far to many 60 year old rolling scrap heaps out there, and you don't want to get stuck with one.

    Don't forget to look for honest PA18's, it is a buyers market if you have patience and cash.

  9. #49

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    50K CD equals 47,911. USD today. I still think you can get a very nice low maintenance aircraft for that kind of money. The Scout and 90HP 18's both excellent choices. There have been fully restored 90 HP cubs for around this money. Good time builder and a heck of lot of fun.

  10. #50

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    Skywagon8,

    Kenmore has lowered the price of the new EDO 2000s from 19,500 to 15,500 over the past few years because they pass on the manufacturing savings to the consumer -- rather than using it to line their pockets -- and they would rather the fleet be rid of the older, sometimes illegally repaired/rebuilt, product.

    They are doing the same with the big Beaver floats. Too many have unapproved/uncertified parts and they are trying to make them economically unprofitable to keep in service. I think they are buying back the older sets in trade on new ones, too.

    I think it is a liability issue as they are the TC holder of EDO floats.

    It could be also based upon the competition from Aerocet's straight 2100s and Wipaire's 2100 amphibs.

  11. #51
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    I know that Canadian money is good these days. The problem is importing an aircraft from the states.

    -$5-7,000 to import to Canada including paperwork
    -$1,000, 406 ELT

    -$5-10,000 just to bring the aircraft to freaking ''Transport Canada'' standards

    That mean it's approximately 10-15K or even more , regardless or the original purchase price.

  12. #52
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    I would be happy with any kind of aircraft in my backyard for now....

    I just don't want to buy a time builder type of aircraft to limit my needs. I want an aircraft with STOL capabilities, 2 places with good cargo weight to spare, floats in a very near future and skis for the winter. I plan flying more than once a week.

    Scout seems like great aircraft but I didn't found one on my budget yet...

  13. #53

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    Be honest with what your budget is if you want our help. If you can afford a plane ready to go, that's one thing. If your think you can get a dog into condition that you would fly your children in for 10K, you're nuts.

    Wake up and smell the realities! We are trying to help. If you sandbag us, you will lose your credibility and waste our time.

  14. #54
    eaglepilot's Avatar
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    Oli,

    I'm sorry, but maybe I gave you the wrong impression in my PM, and in the interests of clarity for all who are following this thread, let me be very clear:


    The original budget my mechanic quoted before importing the plane was $5-7,000-this included an intense annual, all Transport Canada Paperwork, a 406 ELT, a overhauled prop. As I stated, in my PM, this budget was met.

    Secondly, it did not take $5-10,000 to bring the plane up to "Freaking Transport Canada" standards, they had been satisfied in the original budget. This money was spent to bring it up to MY standards, such that I would put my butt in the seat and trust the plane to take me where I want to go.

    Just to be clear.

  15. #55
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Sorry for my misunderstanding... I'm not trying to teach or offend anybody here. I'm here to learn and trust your knowledge.


    My budget for a mechanically trusted aircraft, Canadian registered, esthetically lookin or not, on floats , with medium STOL capabilities, around 600lbs useful load is around 60k.

  16. #56
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt
    Sorry for my misunderstanding... I'm not trying to teach or offend anybody here. I'm here to learn and trust your knowledge.


    My budget for a mechanically trusted aircraft, Canadian registered, esthetically lookin or not, on floats , with medium STOL capabilities, around 600lbs useful load is around 60k.

    Never know???

    PA-18 SUPER CUIB • $50,000 • FOR SALE • Lots of mods. fax , me at: 903 968-2901 with email address for complete list • Contact Conrad Coppedge, Owner - located Ore City, TX USA • Telephone: 903 968 4077 • Fax: 903 968-2901 • Posted December 1, 2009 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad

  17. #57
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Thanks but 1500 miles from home.


    How many years should I expect a fabric to last on a float plane never hangared ???


    What you guy think about this plane?? Should I go give a look? Looks ok to me (compared to the withe and red PA-12) with the pics I have....


  18. #58
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    Kennedy has owned that for 25+ years... why is he selling?

  19. #59

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    clamp on float fittings almost always caused tube corrosion and collapse of the structure over time.

    The one photo doesn't tell anything. I know there are a lot of beautiful hookers out there with HIV/AIDS and you would never know it.

  20. #60
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Kennedy has owned that for 25+ years... why is he selling?
    You know the guy or the aircraft??????? selling it due to health problem.




    There is more pic of the same aircraft in top of the page. I should receive a couple more tomorrow showing closup and bad spots...


    Thanks for the infos on tube clamps. I will remove them to see if any corrosion.


    The thing is the owner says he painted parts of the airplane and paint it started to peel off...




  21. #61
    irishfield's Avatar
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    Know of both.. just something that happens when you buy and sell for over 20 years in Ontario. Have they ever covered it in the time they've had it. I'd say the quick paint job was a hail mary to try to clean her up.

  22. #62
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Fabric was done in 89, plane always outside. The guy tried to paint parts of the plane but it peals of.


    What you guys think of this plane?
    1947 :: piper PA12 :: 0 320

    Interior Description original dash nothing fancy 720 chanel radio ky92
    Exterior Rating 6
    Exterior Description rebuilt 1989 paint fading repainted wing tops 2007 floats in excellent shape no pumping from spring to fall
    Observed Performance PA 18 tail 2000 CAP floats fishing pole tube , includes wheels, .
    Hangared No
    Damage History none
    Full Logs Since New yes
    Last Annual Date 13 jun 09
    TTSN: 1345
    Engine Time Main/Left 35 hrs SMOH
    Engine / Prop Details LYC. 0 320 150 HP 35 hours on new engine. i have owned this A/C SINCE 1977 .SELLING DUE T0 HEALTH PROBLEMS

    '' the brakes are in my basement with the wheels the fabric was done in 1989 so is going to need work in a few years engine all new except for the case it has approx 45 hours in it now, it was done by leveans in toronto who sent it to the factory in the states, ac is now out of the water and winterized''






    I know it needs lot of love.

    I'm waiting your comment before flying down there to have a mechanic check it good....


    Does this fabric need to be change or could I only repare it and paint it well??













    [/list]

  23. #63
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    RUN!!!!

    the brakes are in my basement with the wheels the fabric was done in 1989 so is going to need work in a few years engine all new except for the case it has approx 45 hours in it now, it was done by leveans in toronto who sent it to the factory in the states, ac is now out of the water and winterized''
    Its worth about $15K.

    You can't have a NEW engine and have an old case. Either the engine is new or not new. In this case it is NOT new.

    I fell into this trap, luckily it only cost me $3500.

    Keep looking.

  24. #64
    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    PA-12 purchase

    I'm flumoxed. It's only a photo but why aren't you looking at the PA-12 on this site in "latest classifieds." Plenty of good and desirable mods, and a reasonable amount of time in use since rebuild. Unless you're extremely lucky you won;t get a Cub in that condition and with those mods at that price. P.S. I don't even know the owner, but at this rate, I'm going to go see him.

  25. #65

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    wow, if they look this BAD on the outside i can't imagine what's on the inside. talk about canadian money pits. sorry!

  26. #66

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    It seems inevitable, since he "doesn't care so long as there is a plane in his backyard." So shall we let the fool and his money be parted?

  27. #67

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    And what's up with the first set of photos with nice paint and the last set with all the Blue rubbed off and the wing leading edge and root rot?

    I can sent you photos of a "new condition" PA-12 for $50K imported to Canada. Only problem will be that the photos would have been taken in '47 and, oops, the wreck will be delivered in '10.

    Looks like you're just too willing (read stupid or gullible) to take owners word as gospel. And too willful to take good advice.

    Send me your 60K and I will park a plane in your back yard. I am certain you will be happy.

    And they say the french cannot be trusted. (For good reason it appears)

    fin.

  28. #68
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Thanks for your comment. That is why I'm asking and I do take all your advices very seriously. Proof is I stoped looking at the first white and red PA-12 I posted. And I will do the same for this one unless the vendor slash the price in half.

    I asked the owner some new pics of the plane and thats what he send me. First batch of pics was older for sure.

    I not willing to pay 50k for this plane. But I'm sure it's worth more than 15 up here in Canada.

    I don't want a perfect plane neither. I looking for a flying plane that I will rebuilt later.


    Thanks again for looking at ugly 12's!!

  29. #69
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Olibuilt

    I don't want a perfect plane neither. I looking for a flying plane that I will rebuilt later.
    The least expensive plane you will ever own is the one that you buy in excellent condition and continually maintain to keep it in that condition.

    Don't buy one to rebuild, buy one to maintain.

  30. #70
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    I agree with Tim, it's always best to buy the airplane that somebody else has restored. Even at that, there are plenty of issues that can crop up that aren't always obvious at first. And the first couple of annuals tend to cost more as your IA finds things that need attention. If you buy a basket case just understand that the cost for you to rebuild it, both in time and money, doesn't translate into a higher sale price when you sell it. Let the other guy pay for the rebuild unless you have at least a couple of years plus the knowledge to do the job yourself.

    I would also add that you should beware of an engine that has been sitting a lot, unless it has been pickled up. I've always thought that an engine needs to run at least a couple of times a month for an hour or so, at a minimum, to burn the moisture out of the oil and keep the corrosion at bay. One hour a week is better. So if you do the math and it comes out to less than about 50 hours per year since overhaul then take a very careful look inside as best you can for corrosion. Given the choice between two engines, one that has been flown regularly and a lower time one that has been sitting, for me it's a pretty easy choice.

    Good luck and have fun!

  31. #71

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    Olibuilt: Check out the PA-20-22 on floats with ski's in Barnstormers, it has a 150hp engine looks real nice & is in Rainy River, Ontario. I know it's still a long ways but planes are like that! If I was looking (read could afford) a nice bush plane I'd have a long hard look at it, lots of guys in Alaska use Pacer type planes because they are cheaper, fly fairly fast & with 150hp engine have decent short field performance & as a bonus have room inside

    My mistake, minus the ski's
    here's the add

    PIPER PA 20/22-150 FLOATPLANE • AVAILABLE FOR SALE OR TRADE • 1956 with 2946TTAF, 1101 SMOH, new sealed struts, battery, generator, tail wires, tires, Artex 406 ELT. 8 hrs on Borer seaplane prop and 0 hrs on land prop. Extensive import inspection in 2008 and recent annual June 2009. Like new 9/10 tight 89-2000 edo floats with dual rudders. vertical sea fin, strobe, dual toe brakes, auto fuel, booster wing tips, hangared, excellent condition, all ADs complied with nav/com, intercom, transponder. My flying and my bod is going into retirement. $49,000 or trade or partial trade for newer motorhome with slides or newer 5th wheel with 3 to 4 slides • Contact Dale A. Lowes, Owner - located Rainy River, ON Canada • Telephone: 218 303 2120 • Fax: 807 852 3131 • Posted December 2, 2009 • Show all Ads posted by this Advertiser • Recommend This Ad to a Friend • Email Advertiser • Save to Watchlist • Report This Ad • View Larger Pictures

  32. #72
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    I did take a look at this plane. I'm waiting spring (if still for sale) to go see it. It's a long ride from home.


    I'm going to see a Wage-Aero Super Cubby tomorow morning and I wanted to know what you guys think of this plane or what to look for...

    Wood spars, no flaps, 1 standard door


    YEAR: 1985
    MODEL: Super-Cuby
    TTAF: 1525 hrs

    WAGAERO Super-Cuby

    ENGINE: Lycoming, 0-290-D, 1525 hrs SMOH
    # 381h STOH (4 overhauled cylinders installed)
    # 311h since magneto O/H
    # 135 HP

    PROPELLER: MCCAULEY, 1A175/GM8241

    # EQUIPMENT: Homebuilt floats 2150 lbs
    # Vortex Generator (VG's)

    # INSTRUMENTS: Basic
    # Vertical speed indicator
    # Turn & bank
    # artificial horizon


    GROSS WEIGT AUTHORIZED: 1800 lbs

    EMPTY WEIGHT: 1100 lbs

    # AVIONICS: Digital COM radio
    # 2 place intercom
    # Garmin GPS 90

    # NOTES: A/C assemby and maintenance carried-out by a certified a/c mechanic









  33. #73
    irishfield's Avatar
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    I'd have a hard time crawling inside that orange after a night over at the neighbours island...

    ..and the 290 can get expensive to maintain.

  34. #74

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    I've also noticed many sellers overestimating the value of their planes.

  35. #75
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    I have been busy looking at planes with your help and advices. I was not pushing it untill I heard of a retired guy selling is homebuilt plane. The third he built.

    So I jumped in the car to drive north for 6 hours. I found this 2007 2 doors Wagaero SuperSport, O-235 lyc 40 hours, aluminium wings, on PK 1800 floats.

    My friend and I inspected it the best we could and did not found any major issue. So I decided to go foward with this.

    We agreed on a price. So now I need to go there another time to try and pickup the plane. This plane was born on floats and it has no landing gear. I borrowed a set of SuperCub landing gear and a set of J-3 skis. I just need a tailski assembly and a couple brackets.

    We are planing going there by truck to bring back the PK 1800 and the 1400, and flying the plane back home.



    The dirty bird......





  36. #76
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    Congrats Oli!!! I hope it ends up being a good plane for you. I have been down the "plane search" road a few times and it can get agrivating. I am trying to get one of my brothers into a plane right now and he is in the same frame of mind as you were when you first posted her.
    Again...Congrats!!
    WW

  37. #77

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    Cool! Looks good!

  38. #78
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    I packed the tools and parts to go flying the plane. Borowed some skis, landing gear, bungees, and tail spring.












    Fab some bracket for the ski rigging.






    Home made tail ski for a flight or 2


  39. #79
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    oops

  40. #80
    Olibuilt's Avatar
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    Some testing while the plane is not bought yet. Hummm... 2250 rpm static. To high pitch we hope. Looks like a 74-46/44




    Air born for the fist time since a while







    A little rigging and it's all done







    Check, re check, re re check.... etc.... Let's go for a flight!

    Full throttle in the 600 ft field. The engine is loaded by the prop. We finnaly got airborn.



    Some test and approch a 60 mph. Let it fly to 45mph and touch down.







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