A few, hopefully fresh, super-cub hints if you want them.

You guys are ASSUMING that a stall is the issue while making turns at low speeds and altitudes....what about your own wake turbulence or any burble of disturbed air???????

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I've had the same experience as Spinner2......and others, that just made no sense....

I made my own checklist, but would definitely like to see the one you post, might need to update my own in case there are items I might be missing.

Not sure where to put this but I figured this would do. I am headed to Laredo for two weeks for work. If anyone is around the area, give me a call fellow piper guys. 907-903-0757.

O.k. Back from Laredo. That place is hot. My sneakers started on fire three times. The 737 was like a toaster. Hot on the outside and really hot on the inside. I had to fly to Mexico to get cool. Speaking of rules this should be one of them. If a lightning storm rises above you and lightning hits around you one or more times, don't be the last man standing on the ramp trying to see where the lightning came from. You get the idea. 10 went out, 9 went back. You get the idea.

The subject I have on my mind is the Go-Around.

A hot stick comes in today and says, "I am different than anyone else." I say, "your in the right place, a different place."
He say's, "I don't believe in the go around. If I'm consistent and on speed there will never be a time when I have to go around." So, essentially (keep in mind he is a pretty hot stick, I'll give him that), what he is saying is most people fly too fast or too slow, high or low or whatever. But what do you think? I have, especially in 709 training, seen that generally speaking, we as pilots have sloppy go around technique. Now, I have been focusing my attention on this. Last year was slow speed characteristics at opposite ends of the C.G and spins the year before. The last 3 bi-annuals I had them go around after the first bounce. Two lost control in the yaw (sideways) so bad that we would have hit trees on a narrow runway. All to the left. The last one had it under control but simulated wreaked the airplane in the fake silo at the end of the non-existent farm. So, please practice a go around (aborted landing) after the tires touch. Other than that, what say?

Grab the front of the stabalizers and push in and out and up and down on both sides on the walk around.

articfox said:

O.k. Back from Laredo. That place is hot. My sneakers started on fire three times. The 737 was like a toaster. Hot on the outside and really hot on the inside. I had to fly to Mexico to get cool. Speaking of rules this should be one of them. If a lightning storm rises above you and lightning hits around you one or more times, don't be the last man standing on the ramp trying to see where the lightning came from. You get the idea. 10 went out, 9 went back. You get the idea.

The subject I have on my mind is the Go-Around.

A hot stick comes in today and says, "I am different than anyone else." I say, "your in the right place, a different place."
He say's, "I don't believe in the go around. If I'm consistent and on speed there will never be a time when I have to go around." So, essentially (keep in mind he is a pretty hot stick, I'll give him that), what he is saying is most people fly too fast or too slow, high or low or whatever. But what do you think? I have, especially in 709 training, seen that generally speaking, we as pilots have sloppy go around technique. Now, I have been focusing my attention on this. Last year was slow speed characteristics at opposite ends of the C.G and spins the year before. The last 3 bi-annuals I had them go around after the first bounce. Two lost control in the yaw (sideways) so bad that we would have hit trees on a narrow runway. All to the left. The last one had it under control but simulated wreaked the airplane in the fake silo at the end of the non-existent farm. So, please practice a go around (aborted landing) after the tires touch. Other than that, what say?

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You have to be able to do go arounds and do them well no matter how hot a stick you are. Does he believe in the go around when a deer runs on the runway or when another plane pulls in front of him or lands in the other direction? When I do flight reviews we review everything that they have not done for two years - stalls, go arounds, power off landings, aborted take offs, etc. It might save their lives!

sj

A note: FAA policy requires a review of stall/spins during EVERY flight review. AC 61-67C provides a good review of that. I provide a copy with all flight reviews.

Steve, No deer in that part of Alaska. Only moose--they're taller, more challenging go-around. Otherwise, I agree fully. The Practical Test Standards for ALL certificates requires a knowledge of and demonstration of aborted landings. Should be a part of every pilot's tool kit, practiced and proficient.

Part of the problem, though, is that in real life we so seldom actually perform go-arounds. That can lull us into a sense of complacency.

That said, I don't know of ANYONE who is doing no joke off airport work who doesn't practice go-arounds REGULARLY. Like every time you're pioneering a new landing site. When you roll those tires on the surface to test it, or even when you do a low fly-by to "measure" the strip, you're concluding that pass with a----go-around.

MTV

Go arounds are most common for me when the gusts push me out of position on final. Power it around, adjust, and try again hoping to catch the gusts right. There are days when go arounds result in landings and others when go arounds turn into go aways.

Speaking of go-arounds, missed approaches, wave offs or whatever you want to call it..... there's a simple three step procedure that works in everything from a Cub to a heavy jet.

PU-PU-CU...... Pitch Up & Power Up (usually simultaneous, but pitch control should be first)... then Clean UP.

Obviously, each aircraft has its own peculiar control characteristics that must be considered. For instance, a C-150 with full flaps on a hot day might require pitch control initially to level until full power is achieved and drag is reduced with a partial flap reduction.... then another pitch up to initiate a climb. A Lake Amphibian will certainly require agressive pitch as its thrust line tends to push the nose down when full power is applied.
In most any aircraft, a 1.3Vso approach airspeed allows for a pitch-up while power is applied, usually with little of no loss of airspeed as the descent is stopped and hopefully a climb is established. Some aircraft will also pitch up with full power application so pitch control is mostly simply maintaining the proper attitude to establish a climb at the proper airspeed (Vx or greater, no more than Vy).

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My first action is to gain airspeed. To transition from attempted landing to go around that's priority one. I can't think of a situation where there's an exception.

StewartB said:

My first action is to gain airspeed. To transition from attempted landing to go around that's priority one. I can't think of a situation where there's an exception.

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Most approach airspeeds are adequate for climbs speeds. The procedure I described simply stops descent.... maintains the airspeed and transitions to a climb profile. Except in extreme operations, I can't think of any situation where you would need to gain airspeed.

Most approach airspeeds are adequate for climbs speeds. The procedure I described simply stops descent.... maintains the airspeed and transitions to a climb profile. Except in extreme operations, I can't think of any situation where you would need to gain airspeed.

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Hydro

If we were all in the Habit of flying final at 1.3 VSO I would be more in agreement with your assessment about the transition to a go around.

Most of my off airport operations are conducted at much closer to 1.1 VSO on final, and hence I am more inclined to agree with Stewart about the need to establish airspeed.

dalec said:

Hydro

If we were all in the Habit of flying final at 1.3 VSO I would be more in agreement with your assessment about the transition to a go around.

Most of my off airport operations are conducted at much closer to 1.1 VSO on final, and hence I am more inclined to agree with Stewart about the need to establish airspeed.

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I fully understand that... and would classify those operations as "non-normal or in some cases extreme" in nature. However, there is something to be said about flying at such slow airspeeds to use a de-celerating approach and have a point where you are 99% committed to a landing before you get that slow. Fortunately, most Cubs (except at high altutudes or very heavy) have enough power to pull out of those "hang on the prop" approaches. None the less, your pitch control is very critical as you "pull" out of any low airspeed situation as not enough will slam you into the ground accelerating and too much will increase your drag to a possible critical condition to prevent flying out safely.

Most pilots I've flown with who have trouble with go-arounds struggle because of poor pitch (and rudder) control rather than use of power. They usually have difficulty with re-configuration to a low drag, climb profile also. With some aircraft, too much power can actually hinder the performance of a proper go-around.

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In mine, and many other cubs I have flown, with flaps deployed 1.1 and 1.3 vso all appear as zero or near zero on the ASI. It is just not that accurate at low speeds (with the original pitot), which is why nobody looks at it. How do we judge that we are 10% over the stall speed or 20%? It's a guess, or an approximation I suppose.

For some reason some people have trouble ramming the stick forward when they apply full power for a go around with full flaps. They just let the plane point up instead of holding forward to get a slightly nose high attitude and checking for positive rate of climb before starting to drop some flaps.

sj

SJ said:

For some reason some people have trouble ramming the stick forward when they apply full power for a go around with full flaps.
sj

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Thats because most people never learn the concept of the power curve.

SJ said:

For some reason some people have trouble ramming the stick forward when they apply full power for a go around with full flaps. They just let the plane point up instead of holding forward to get a slightly nose high attitude and checking for positive rate of climb before starting to drop some flaps.

sj

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Exactly my point, Steve. Pitch attitude control is primary when executing a go-around. In many aircraft, especially depending on the thrust line and the tail trim, forward pitch control is often necessary to attain the proper pitch attitude.

Hydro

I think we are trying to say the same thing. Proper pitch attitude is required to regain airspeed. Most of the "bad situations" we get into with a cub require us to drop the nose and reestablish airflow over the wings. By dropping the nose and adding power we gain airspeed. All part of the recovery, as SJ pointed out, adding power with full flaps requires forward elevator to regain airspeed.

O.k. so here is the question. After the wheels touch the ground. (say a Jackalope runs out in front of the aircraft) Would you floor it and run towards the object then haul back for the sky or would you just floor it haul back and hope your aircraft has the power to pull you through ground effect. This is kind of in the corner thinking but I have landed only to run over railroad ties that were obscured by tall grass (not really but a good example). The difference being a go-around while in the air vs. below 1.3vso then touching down then having to go. In other words, why have we focused so much on the landings yet lulled ourselves into thinking that nothing may happen after we get the wheels on the ground? Please chew that over and give some feedback. I have another issue that happens right after take off but less than 20 feet in the air. I'll save that for later... The discussion is great.

I've always said that every off airport landing I make is an aborted go around. I couldn't care less about 1.3 Vso. If I have residual forward speed after landing, say 15-20 mph, I can firewall the throttle and have the plane flying in ground effect almost instantly. That's true for Cub and Cessna. Unlike Hydro's focus on climb, I'll likely try to hold the plane on the runway for as long as practical and subsequently in ground effect in order to build speed and clean up the flaps as necessary before I climb out including when trees are in front of me. Especially if wind is what caused the missed landing. Airspeed is my friend. And to state the obvious, I always push carb heat off on short final. I do so because I've done close call/oh crap go arounds with carb heat left on. Bad deal.

SB

Easy way to figure out what to do is go set for a descent at whatever configuration and airspeed you will typically use, and trim it for hands off. without touching the controls, add full power. Most aircraft will pitch up instantly. controlling that pitch change is where most people get behind the airplane and get in trouble.

S2D said:

Easy way to figure out what to do is go set for a descent at whatever configuration and airspeed you will typically use, and trim it for hands off. without touching the controls, add full power. Most aircraft will pitch up instantly. controlling that pitch change is where most people get behind the airplane and get in trouble.

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Make a normal landing with full flaps and appropriate trim to a full stop. From there make a take-off without adjusting flaps or trim. The forward pressure required to maintain airspeed is alarming. It was a standard drill when I was taking high performance training. And I've got to say, if I'm expecting to get jostled by the wind, I don't want to do it with full flaps, a high rate of climb, and at slow speeds. Level in ground effect to gain speed and clean up the wings, then deal with the elements.

StewartB said:

I've always said that every off airport landing I make is an aborted go around. I couldn't care less about 1.3 Vso. If I have residual forward speed after landing, say 15-20 mph, I can firewall the throttle and have the plane flying in ground effect almost instantly. That's true for Cub and Cessna. Unlike Hydro's focus on climb, I'll likely try to hold the plane on the runway for as long as practical and subsequently in ground effect in order to build speed and clean up the flaps as necessary before I climb out including when trees are in front of me. Especially if wind is what caused the missed landing. Airspeed is my friend. And to state the obvious, I always push carb heat off on short final. I do so because I've done close call/oh crap go arounds with carb heat left on. Bad deal.

SB

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Which bring up an interesting question. WHat will give you the maximum performance, building airspeed, then pulling up steeply or maintaing vx from the start.

Good scenerio would be to make your approach at your desired minimum airspeed. when you reach the end of the runway, 100 foot off the ground initiate a go around. Do it both ways and see which way will give you the highest elevation at the opposite end of the runway.

If you are going to practice aborted landings, why not do the one that will give you the best performance so you will always do the same one regardless of the situation.

In benign conditions I don't think it matters which way you choose. In gusty, turbulent crosswinds, the primary contributor to MY balked landings, I want penetration speed to climb through the treetop zone where it really gets dicey. Down in the shadows of the trees and in ground effect I can hide from much of the bad wind effect. But I'm relating my experiences in my regular ops. Other guys have other conditions that dictate their actions and responses.

Perhaps its most accurate to say your go around technique should be similar to the technique you'd choose for an initial take-off into the same conditions. If the wind's gusty and crossing I'm not going to break ground at miminum speed and transition to a Vx climb. If I'm out playing on a short sandbar on a calm day I might, though.

As always, very enlightening discussion. I'm of the "gain all possible airspeed, then pull up" school. Not that I'm any great shakes as a flyer, but in my most-often-used off airport spot, the strip is plenty long, but the approach can get fugly on the last 300 feet before the "threshhold": lots of hills and bumps, and no trees to protect from any crosswind, hence lots of gusty turbulent crosswinds. So, if I've blown the approach, I'll throw the coals to it (requiring some not-inconsequential amount of forward stick) staying above the ground but below the trees to get as much airspeed as I can, then (before running out of trees/protection from crosswinds), I'll make a very positive climb initiation. On this strip, and with my "typical" go around, that positive climb initiation gives me a good 2-300' jump that both gives me time to deal with further wind effects as well as addressing other trim/configuration issues needed for the rest of the go-around.

Without saying which approach would be "best", all I can say is at my cabin strip, even if the wind is straight down the strip, I'd be very nervous about starting climbout right at minimum speed.....too much chance of brother wind wanting slap you back down without any energy margin to fight it.....in my opinion.

O.k. Here is another one. If you guys don't mind the topics. I like discussions where people throw feedback. On another pre-flight thread, CIGARTIPS came up as a good takeoff check. I haven't heard that one for over 10 years. It is a great way to use a checklist. My dad taught me that one along time ago and it still sticks with me as I bounce from plane to plane. I just thought I would point out that sometimes the old stuff comes back and squarely hits you in the middle of the forehead as a great idea. Thanks.

The topic is engine failures right after takeoff. Not the engine failure that happens below 500 feet to see if you can pull off the impossible turn or crash into the trees. I'm talking about the one where you forget the fuel selector "off " then about the time you rotate into a vx-5 climb, make it to 20 feet and get a cold, hard, scary engine backfire and death. The natural reaction is to rotate the cub into a further increasing angle of attack. This usually results in a instant stall and fall back to earth with broken parts all over the place and a call to the huey guys. Have you thought about it? Tried it? Here is how to set it up.

Get a instructor. Discuss the procedure. (I try this at altitude first) Get on the runway, take off. As soon as you rotate, count to three, Vx climb then pull the power. Be ready instructors, the next one is usually pretty good. You have to shove the nose directly to the ground and do not pass go. Git er done!!

I have had a number of guys express their gratitude for having the opportunity to see how bad that is. They also expressed how much they really need a instructor in the airplane and a good understanding of the issue before trying it solo.

So, what would your reaction be in terms of having the engine quit right after the rotation. Lets say a Vs1+4? Would you pull back?

Hi there. I have been trying to instruct but it's been cold, freeze your !##$ cold. Luckily, I have no heat in the small cub and no one wants to get into it. They like the heat in the 172 and I am o.k. with that. I miss the 737 heat. Anyhoo, here is the topic that I figured needs a little attention. Actually two. The first is what happens when you end up out there in the snow and ice and you wake up and on and on. You go out there and have two inches of that crusty ice on your plane and nowhere to get it off. We don't live where hangers are all over the place. I used the rope thing but hate the way I have to recover the airplane everytime I do it. You know, sawing it off? I liked the parachute over the whole airplane with a heater but It's hard to carry a 40 pound shute with you. The wing covers work great when you bring them with you...

The second one is this scenario; you get all the way to Beluga Lake and find yourself in the biggest snow squall you have ever seen. (Beluga is by Anchorage for you guys down South) How do you find your way back to town? Call it scud running or whatever but it happens and you need to have a idea of what do do when it happens. I, for example, know that rearward vis is better than forward vis. It helps to know where your going if you know where you've been, right? Or, once i'm on the coast, I'm, good down to very low vis. numbers and can follow the little white line where the water meets the beach. (Had to use that one all the time on the Bering coast) I guess I never see a pointer on where to go or what to do when that happens. Even, and this is a good point, the land looks less flat or it undulates as you get around 100 feet in low vis. I had a pilot today that said he has got lost (thank goodness for GPS) within 5 miles from his home. The land looked different in low light and low vis.

So, help a buddy out. Throw some good old home grown tactics on here. (of course I'm not saying it's o.k. to push weather)...I'm just saying that it's a new year and I'm ready to pull something smart and learn from a few friends.

How do you find your way back to town? Call it scud running or whatever but it happens and you need to have a idea of what do do when it happens.

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Arctic

Good point and one thing people need to take into consideration when they find themselves in that position. You know the position, the one we never find ourselves in, right?

Anyway, when that happens the first thing to remember is your throttle has the ability to extend your visibility ( not literally) but effectively. A cub doing 100 mph is covering something like 146 ft per minute, that means you can only see about 36 seconds flying time in front of you and that may not be enough to be comfortable. On the other hand slow down to 70 mph pull the first notch of flaps and you are covering 100 fpm having effectively increased your visibility and allotted reaction time by 50%. I find this greatly reduces the sweaty palms and stress lines on my face.

I don't like "scud running" but when I find myself getting into the situation that you described that is my first order of business.

""The first is what happens when you end up out there in the snow and ice and you wake up and on and on. You go out there and have two inches of that crusty ice on your plane and nowhere to get it off. We don't live where hangers are all over the place. I used the rope thing but hate the way I have to recover the airplane everytime I do it. You know, sawing it off? I liked the parachute over the whole airplane with a heater but It's hard to carry a 40 pound shute with you. The wing covers work great when you bring them with you..."""


i would try sticking your scat tube into some inspection holes and blowing the warm heat in--if needed, put your engine cover over the area you are trying to de-ice to help keep the heat in that area..... if you use an XGK MSR stove you will have plenty of gas to use for the wings and engine....i've seen this technique successfully used on a 185....

FWIW-i too don't always bring my wing covers but always bring my engine cover--an extra blanket if it gets bad...and i always bring my ammo can style pre-heat with me also--water is worth more than food is my rationale for never leaving it behind...

cheers

tempdoug said:

Grab the front of the stabalizers and push in and out and up and down on both sides on the walk around.

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For older craft, I do the same with the trailing edge of the elevator. I usually grab two spots slightly wider than shoulder width centered on the lowest point on the trailing edge. Pull up with one hand, down with the other, but not hard enough to bend them of course. If your fabric has been on the plane for a while, good test for corroded tubing. My friend'e elevator twisted in his hand one day, tubing was about half gone. Grab the vertical stabilizer near the top and give it a slight push/pull. Puts torsional stress on the longerons. If it is soft or yields, you may have cracked or corroded longerons.

I always run my hand down the leading edge of each side of the prop for nicks, always grab the air filter cover and give it a shake, especially after carb repairs/rebuilds. If not properly torqued and the re-torqued after 24 hours, the carb bowl can come loose. Loose carb bowl does some really wierd things in flight.

Yep, the carb filter bowl has come off at least three time in different airplanes. I had two break and one must have had a loose nut on it or something. I think that when I pulled the power to idle on one of those fake emergency landings, I hear a loud backfire (not a afterfire but a backfire). I think that may have found the weak spot. The rod broke at the airbox on both of those. Maybe a good wiggle would have helped.