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Sick New S2

It is industry standard that OEM component equipment warranties are administered by the respective manufacturer, not the end producer. The same would have applied to your Supercubs when they were new. Airframe manufacturers certainly serve as liaison between the consumer and the respective component warranties, but ultimately are not solely responsible. CC has a warranty administrator who performs this service, as do all of the other manufacturers out there worth their salt.
 
My poor sick S2 has been looked at by several highly qualified IA's. The starter was removed and sent to B&C. The pinion gear was found to be ground down and replaced by B&C for no charge. They did a superior job of looking at the starter as soon as possible and aiding in quick repairs. The idler gear on the engine is also ground down. The most likely cause has been determined to be the starter solenoid. It will be replaced. I hope to be flying again in about a week!
 
The only thing that would cause a starter to engage inflight would be a bad starter solenoid or starter switch. You would also see ammeter readings totally off the gage as well (and hopefully a blown breaker before the fire starts). I would address that before further attempts at flying it.
 
sick new s2

Probably correct citabrickr. All Diana's symptoms were indicative of inflight inadvertent activation. I have seen starter hangs during start and it is difficult to realize engagement unless you have a starter engage annunciator to help you with that situation. For those of you that don't you can find a simple way to accomplish that on the B & C Specialty Products website. I think it is good information to have. I was very pleased with B&Cs support of Diana's situation. Bill Bainbridge came to her rescue even while he was returning from SNF and preparing to leave for the Alaskan Airman trade show. Highly recommend B & C.

I do not offer such warm fuzzies for her cylinder support. I am amazed at how little, almost adversarial support she has received regarding the cylinder debacle. I certainly can't and won't speak to all TCM cylinders but I have been involved with her problem from the start and the people who were there to receive her delivery payment could be more supportive and TCM, well, why waste the call. If it was my good fortune to pop for a firewall forward Continental anything I would understand the upfront expense required for removing the cylinders and having a reputable shop properly prepare them to even think about TBO. Hard for me to understand why accountable has not been made to measure for all these issues. Diana's is not the lone case around my aviation circles. The same cylinder scenario is prevalent around here. This is certainly not cutting edge technology just a requirement for more attention to detail during the production process.

Considering the price that was paid I feel bad for her lack of support given by the manufacturer, TCM and her sales network. Her income (student training) is put on hold while everyone decides how little they can do to help. I thought we were all in this aviation thing together. Most of you who have met her know how she shares her airplane and aviation. All her students are the better for the training they receive from her. Hope we can get her back in the air soon regardless of the poor support so she can continue that saga. And we wonder why we continue to lose good people in aviation.
 
Re: sick new s2

lateralg said:
Probably correct citabrickr. All Diana's symptoms were indicative of inflight inadvertent activation. I have seen starter hangs during start and it is difficult to realize engagement unless you have a starter engage annunciator to help you with that situation. For those of you that don't you can find a simple way to accomplish that on the B & C Specialty Products website. I think it is good information to have. I was very pleased with B&Cs support of Diana's situation. Bill Bainbridge came to her rescue even while he was returning from SNF and preparing to leave for the Alaskan Airman trade show. Highly recommend B & C.

I do not offer such warm fuzzies for her cylinder support. I am amazed at how little, almost adversarial support she has received regarding the cylinder debacle. I certainly can't and won't speak to all TCM cylinders but I have been involved with her problem from the start and the people who were there to receive her delivery payment could be more supportive and TCM, well, why waste the call. If it was my good fortune to pop for a firewall forward Continental anything I would understand the upfront expense required for removing the cylinders and having a reputable shop properly prepare them to even think about TBO. Hard for me to understand why accountable has not been made to measure for all these issues. Diana's is not the lone case around my aviation circles. The same cylinder scenario is prevalent around here. This is certainly not cutting edge technology just a requirement for more attention to detail during the production process.

Considering the price that was paid I feel bad for her lack of support given by the manufacturer, TCM and her sales network. Her income (student training) is put on hold while everyone decides how little they can do to help. I thought we were all in this aviation thing together. Most of you who have met her know how she shares her airplane and aviation. All her students are the better for the training they receive from her. Hope we can get her back in the air soon regardless of the poor support so she can continue that saga. And we wonder why we continue to lose good people in aviation.

Did you guys file the SDR on the cylinder issue?

Tim
 
citabrickr said:
The only thing that would cause........ be a bad starter solenoid ....................

I have accomplished making a starter solenoid weld itself by just being a nice guy and checking/tightening the big wires going into it.... it managed to turn the stud a little, and it allowed just on corner to hit when activated and that corner welded...

FYI...the ends of the big studs have big flat square sides( 1/2" wide) on the inside of solenoid, and the when turned on a disc comes down and contacts both big studs.... and should go back up when released.... each release also cause some spark erosion.... so your ? year old solenoid is not passing on all the juice it should....
 
Ok, so TCM is terrible to deal with warranty...

We aircraft buyers can help, we should be sending letters to the FAA and TCM stating the fact that TCM is producing unsafe cylinders, and refuse to buy aircraft with them.

Funny how when market share slips a bit that change comes about.

One more reason to find an aircraft other than CCs.

Fingers crossed that you fly soon.

Come on up and we can take the chicken out if you need O2 therapy.
 
I have heard that there are at least 10 sport cubs with the exhause valve problem. thats more than 10% - quite the high rate - and that is just sport cubs, they have problems across the board with all cylinders in all engines.
 
Pokette said:
I have heard that there are at least 10 sport cubs with the exhause valve problem. thats more than 10% - quite the high rate - and that is just sport cubs, they have problems across the board with all cylinders in all engines.

So....

Maybe you and your 10 others might document your cases???


http://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/
 
tim,
we are not just ranting and raving here. tryint to keep others who are interested informed. there is going to be some action from the owners. we are hopefully working together to get a resolution for us and some $ relief at best, and help future owners of TCM products down the line.
 
I'm not trying to defend TCM and I agree that these problems should be reported via SDR.

But, I have to comment on 2 things in previous posts.

1. This is not a CC issue. I am not a CC owner, in fact I own the competition, but it's not fair to bash CC for TCM's shortcomings.

2. Statistics are misleading, some times. 10 cylinder failures in a fleet of 100 isn't 10%, it's 2.5%, because there are 4 per airplane. Throw in the 150 or so engines delivered on Legends and Texas Sports and now we're up to 600 more. If Legend is correct in what they told Steve that they have seen "2 or 3" and we double that for grins, we are talking about a total of 16 failures out of 1000 cylinders (Approx 400 for CC and 600 for Legend).

That's 1.6% on the high side. Still too high, of course especially in light of the other manufacturing defects previously reported.

Rich
 
Lawsuits are not going to make anything any better either.

Find the problem and get it corrected. If you need to work higher up the chain at Continental than do that.

We had a problem with our 0-470 that was new. Eventually we dropped the plane off there until it is fixed.

I'm sure continental (and most other aviation businesses) is hanging on by a thread right now. Putting salt (lawyer) into the wound won't help much.

Tim
 
Richgj3,
I see your points.
1. It is a cc consideration. they should be able to assist with the engine problems with the number of engines they purchase through TCM and be on the owners side.
2. 10 aircraft, some had all 4 cylinders, some 2 and some 1, and those are the ones that were mentioned on the forums.

thanks for all the assistance.
 
When the Continental IO 550 engine first hit the modifier market, the engine got a really bad reputation for stepping cylinders. Most of these engines installed in 206 aircraft would eat six cylinders in a TBO run.

There were, no doubt, operator and installer issues, but there were also some subtle design changes made to these engines, and combined with operator and installer education, the engines became quite reliable. Continental never admitted publicly that there were any problems with the engines. They also never admitted that they changed the design. But, it got fixed, in any case.

Keep working on them, Diana. A persistent, polite but determined approach got things fixed with the big engine.

Good luck.

MTV
 
Richgj3 said:
1. This is not a CC issue.


I call Bull$hit!

If CC has a plane that they put together and market as a package, and assembled, it is their problem. Pokette did not take an engine to CC and say: Put this in my plane. She bought a plane, NEW, from the factory with the expectation of having a reliable bird to fly.

CC designed the bird
CC chose the engine
CC installed the engine

Gee, what makes it not their problem?

If nothing else, they should be the ones calling TCM daily asking when their customers get the service TCM says is available.

I know that when I am on a job and a sub screws up, I fix it/pay for it and then deal with the sub. CC should take care of the customer and then deal with TCM.

CC can find other engines if TCM is not trustworthy.

Buy a car, if the engine is a problem, do you get sent to the engine manufacture? NO, the dealer fixes it.

That should be the approach for all manufactures!
 
TJ and Tango

You make good points. I had assumed from Clay's post that CC was taking a proactive role via their warranty manager. I have no other information on which to base my statement as I am not an owner and don't get to read the Sport Cub e-mails.

Rich
 
I'm 100% with TJ and Tango. She bought from CC, and this should be CC's problem and not hers. In my mind the right thing is for CC to immediately repair/replace the engine, and then they can take up the warranty battle with TCM. I don't like it when companies try to pass the buck.
 
Whoa Rich...I was just clarifying industry standard in my post above.

But since I've opened up a new post here, and so that we're not just bashing TCM in this, let me relate a past issue that certain Piper aircraft dealt with and with which I had the distinct displeasure in dealing with:

Back during the "turn of the century", turbocharged IO-540's started having defective crankshafts left and right, some leading to in-flight catastrophic failure and loss of life. Here are some details I culled from another website:

NEWS HEADLINE - Tuesday 20 August 2002
LYCOMING POWERED AIRCRAFT GROUNDED
"Lycoming has received several field reports of broken crankshafts in six-cylinder turbocharged engines rated at 300 horsepower or higher," Textron said in a service bulletin.
"The problem is related to the material used in these crankshafts." Textron Lycoming said the engines had to be removed from aircraft, dissembled and their crankshafts replaced.
It warned aviation operators against using existing crankshafts from other engines as these also could be defective.

The latest recall by the company follows the recall in February of 400 TIO-540 engines because of crankshaft failures.
The latest recall is expected to ground almost 3000 aircraft across the world. Textron Lycoming issued a media release in April saying it had been forced to put on an extra assembly line to cope with the repair of the 400 engines initially identified with defective crankshafts.
The company has offered to pay the full costs of grounding the aircraft and overhauling their engines.
I'll repeat that last part:
The company has offered to pay the full costs of grounding the aircraft and overhauling their engines.
Further:
The new AD was issued after the fatal crash of a Piper Malibu Mirage in Michigan earlier this month, plus reports of 17 crankshaft failures. The FAA said variations in the heat treatment process results in metallurgical deficiencies that cause the cranks to fail.
Reports quoted a Textron spokeswoman saying that the recall does not just apply to new engines purchased in the past three years. Faulty cranks might also have been installed in rebuilds during that period. The FAA is estimating it will take up to eight months to replace all the crankshafts. Lycoming will cover the cost of removal, shipping, repair and reinstallation of the engines. Many of the affected aircraft are in commercial service and a company spokeswoman said there might be compensation for business losses.
"That will be handled on an individual basis," she said.
A subcontractor makes the potentially faulty cranks but Bishop refused to identify the company. She did say that Lycoming would negotiate a cost-sharing arrangement with the subcontractor. Insurance might cover much of the costs, which could reach $15 million.
I'll reiterate a part of that:
Lycoming will cover the cost of removal, shipping, repair and reinstallation of the engines

I worked for a Piper dealer back then, the same one that I work for today. Did we have a lot of irate customers? You betchya! Did we help every one of them to the best of our abilities? Definitely. Were we ultimately responsible for the failures and responsibility to correct? No, Lycoming was.

It doesn't work like a car dealership folks. And that is a fundamentally flawed analogy regardless. In the case of your Ford, or Chevy, or Honda, the manufacturer of the car made the engine as well. So yes, you would take your defective Chevy engine into a Chevy garage and fully expect Chevy to fix it.

In our industry, rather the manufacturer of the component product installed on the airframe is responsible for correcting the discrepancy. Its just how it is. I'm not defending CC or anyone else here, just stating fact. IF TCM has a faulty design, then they are responsible for correcting, most usually by working with the shop or service center that has diagnosed the problem, in conjunction with the owner. Now when it becomes a fleet problem, then yes, the airframe manufacturer should step in, more as a good faith gesture than anything else, standing behind there finished product. I agree with that. And we have no reason to believe that CC isn't doing that. Problem is that ultimately it is hard to please people. Especially Type A aircraft owners and operators. I know because I am one of them, went to a meeting just last night...
:drinking:
So its hard to have a quick solution that makes everyone happy, even more so in this case because the engine manufacturers are notoriously difficult to budge. Its just the way the business works. It is unfortunate, but we didn't get any meaningful support with the Lycoming issue until the fella in Michigan crashed his Malibu and lost his life.

We can hem and haw here all we want, but the fact of the matter is that the issues with TCM here, whatever they may be, will be corrected behind closed conference room doors and via phone calls between them and the owners and their mechanics, and ultimately if need be with CC as well.
 
I'm with Clay...I worked for Lancair/Columbia Aircraft years ago and engine (or turbos) or Garmin G1000 or Avidyne Entegra (the list goes on as far as major components) were all handled by the manufacturers of those components, not the company whose logo is on the side of the aircraft. Of course you work hand in hand as best you can. The aircraft design authority does not have the authority to make changes to any of those components as they are controlled and certified by the company that produces them...
 
Guys,

I don't think anyone was asking what the situation in the industry IS. I believe what TJ and others were stating is what the situation SHOULD BE.

By your argument, if an airframe failed, we'd have to go hunt down the foundry that made the metal tubing, right?

I think the point is that CC or any manufacturer has a LOT more influence on a parts manufacturer than does a single owner. Even if owners get together, they are still really powerless.

Further, if the problems don't get fixed, the manufacturer of the plane is not going to fare well in the sales wars, hence they SHOULD be really motivated to work on behalf of the owners.

Please understand that I'm not suggesting that CC hasn't been and isn't actually doing that. They may well be working hard on behalf of their owners, and I sincerely hope they are.

But to suggest that the manufacturer of an aircraft has no responsibility to make right a faulty system they installed in their airplane is BS, in my opinion.

We've been brainwashed that somehow airplanes are different than every other type of consumer goods in this regard. We bought it, so it must be true.....

I would bet that if one of these deals ever got to court, the builder of the airplane would be paying some bills.

MTV
 
MTV is right. And if the brakes on my Chevrolet made by XYZ company are defective, does Chevy go right for it, or do they send me after XYZ? If my car upholestry made by ABC Cloth company starts to fall apart, does GM tell me to go after ABC? Lots of car parts are not made by the car manufacturer, but the manufacturer warranties them. It might be the way it is in the airplane business, but to me its passing the buck. Just what does CC warranty? I'll bet very few of the parts on that plane are made by them, but instead are purchased from various vendors.
 
This argument is the real reason why I have a stable of ole planes that I keep repairing to fly and not just one brand new one. If I would pay $100,000 to $400,000 for a brand new Brand X aircraft I certainly would be aggressively agitated if I started having problems with it and no, or at best argumentative finger pointing support from the various major component manufacturers. Guess I am just not willing to take that risk- especially after hearing stories like these. Best of luck to you Pokette. I'll just keep getting my fingers dirty trying to keep my stable airworthy. At least the money isn't as big.

Pat
 
Not saying its right or wrong, just stating what I know as a participant in the industry as a supplier rather than a consumer. The pressure ultimately needs to be on TCM if their is an issue with their workmanship and/or design, both from the owners and the airframer. Its a concerted effort, I didn't say the airframer should sit back and cross their legs, rather that they are in some ways in the same boat. In the grand scheme we are all small fry when it comes to dealing with Textron or Teledyne. Lycoming and Continental are no longer independents, but rather part of a larger corporate conglomerate, of which GA aircraft engines are an infantile percentage of the gross profits. But the corporate mentality, right wrong, or indifferent, has trickled down into the everyday workings of our engine manufacturers, IMHO, making them exceedingly difficult to reason with.
 
CC is not alone in not standing up to a supplier or behind what in my mind is ultimately their product. A friend purchased a new Cirrus - his 2nd one. After numerous problems with the avionics that Cirrus basically told him he would have to take up the avionics manufacturer, and after he made several trips with the plane half way across the country to get it to the avionics manufacturer without a satisfactory outcome, he sold the plane and bought a new Beechcraft. Not sure if Beech offered him a better warranty on all parts. But Cirrus lost a good customer that might have some day owned one of their new jets because of poor warranty service -passing the buck.
 
superchamp said:
MTV is right. And if the brakes on my Chevrolet made by XYZ company are defective, does Chevy go right for it, or do they send me after XYZ? If my car upholestry made by ABC Cloth company starts to fall apart, does GM tell me to go after ABC? Lots of car parts are not made by the car manufacturer, but the manufacturer warranties them. It might be the way it is in the airplane business, but to me its passing the buck. Just what does CC warranty? I'll bet very few of the parts on that plane are made by them, but instead are purchased from various vendors.



Don't bash CC just because....

Understand, you simply can't compare car/truck warranties with aircraft warranties. Car/truck warranties fall under various federal regulations plus often get state statute augmentation... Aircraft warranties fall under the terms and limitations of the purchase agreement, more like lawn mowers and tractors.

Does CC have a direct physical responsibility? Don't know, haven't read their purchase agreement but I would imagine with respect to intact systems that they install any warranty is limited, just like everyone else in the industry does, to what they did in mounting that system.

Does CC have a (for lack of a better term) moral obligation to their customers? I'm willing to bet the naming rights to the next "interesting" lake Diana finds that CC is already working it on behalf of both their current and future customers, albeit without taking direct responsibility which is 100% understandable to me.
 
Clay Hammond said:
It doesn't work like a car dealership folks. And that is a fundamentally flawed analogy regardless. In the case of your Ford, or Chevy, or Honda, the manufacturer of the car made the engine as well. So yes, you would take your defective Chevy engine into a Chevy garage and fully expect Chevy to fix it.

quote]

Hmmmm :roll:

Do some of those Dodge's have CUMMINGS on the side? Do I call Cummings or Dodge?

Laws etc aside, yes, we aircraft folks need to support the industry, and not take everything to court.

Maybe the laws let the aircraft manufacture off a hook on components...

BUT as aircraft users, WE should be prudent and help solve these problems. Not just talk about them. If a company gives terrible service/poor quality, we should pass the word everywhere and not use them.

There is a CC-18 here, bought brand new two summers ago, and frankly, after watching it fall apart one piece at a time, and watch the mechanics try and get support, I will not get CC to build my next plane. Now here is a person with a S2, brand new, with the same sort of issues.

Funny what happens when people get tired of poor quality, just check out the car makers here in the US.

If enough people quite using a product because the manufacture will not support it, they go away. A good lesson for other manufactures.

Maybe CC is helping to the most of their abilities. But I would think that they would send new components to replace, and take it up with TCM themselves. Hard to justify passing the buck on a BRAND NEW plane that cost that much, and have unhappy owners.

How much bad press have CC and TCM gotten here? Would have been great press if the early part of this thread was: "CC sent new cylinders and we put them on, they are taking it up with TCM.

Who cares what standard is. We have to change standards that are wrong.
 
CC is working with owners concerning TCM cylinder problems, but it has been difficult to give them specific scientific evidence regarding engine temps, power levels, etc. Recent reports via TCM spokesman confirm the left hand doesn't know what the right hand was doing. I solved my cylinder problem by sending all four to Lycon without ever contacting TCM. There was just no point in trying to deal with TCM even though the cylinders only had 71 hrs TT, but were past the one year warranty period. Besides, it took seven months for my mechanic to get reimbursed for installing the new "old style" rocker shafts. How is that for service? So far, so good after Lycon re-worked the cylinders. I did install an EII digital CHT/EGT on the hottest cylinder to gather operational information. Thinking about getting the Super Sport Cub with the Lycoming installation if I continue to have trouble.
 
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