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Thread: Sick New S2

  1. #1
    Pokette's Avatar
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    Sick New S2

    Here is my flight right after annual:



    While in annual one of the problems was the #3 cylinder. I have a total of 131 hours since new. Its compression was low and TCM repaired a bad exhaust valve. I took off from the repair place to travel the 40 miles to my home airport. I flew for about .5 and it was running beautifully. Then at about .7 I heard a loud bang and had a loss of power. Normal play with mixture, make sure primer was caged etc. all to no effect. It would run at about 2400 rpm but was running a little rough. when full power was applied there was the loud banging. At 6 minutes from Sparta i knew it was going to be trouble. I made it back and investigation is underway. Cylinders pressure test OK, #2 is leaking through exhaust but still is at 68/80. The oil was dropped and the filter cut open... it is making metal. Lets how a new aircraft/engine does not need an overhaul at 130 TT!

  2. #2
    Speedo's Avatar
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    Bummer!
    Speedo

  3. #3
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Oh, MAN!! Here's hoping they figure it out, and pronto, and take care of it.

    Good luck.

    MTV

  4. #4
    CubLite's Avatar
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    Man, thanks SUCKS! Glad you made it back to Terra Firma in good shape. Hope you don't have a problem getting a warranty on that new engine. Keep us posted.

    Pat

  5. #5

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    Poquette, feel free to PM me; I had similar on 0-300 a few years/hours ago. Mine turned out to be related to getting the rocker-arm oil squirts on the wrong side,i.e. intake vs. exhaust.

    BEST of luck on this.

    Thanks. cubscout, a.k.a. Curt

  6. #6

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    Sometimes I think annuals create more problems than they fix.

  7. #7
    Pokette's Avatar
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    The starter was pulled and the idler gear looks to be warn - could be where the medal was coming from. the started tried to engage in flight and caused the trouble. the oil has been sent out to be analyzed and we could have an answer today. the starter was sent out to be checked also. the starter gear looked ok but when voltage applied sounded funny. talking with b&c indicates that there is some sort of clutch to slow it down and if that it was an uncomanded start, then the engine speed caused the clutch to slow down the starter and caused a loss of power. don't know if i am explaining it right....
    about warranty - when is that ever easy????
    thanks for the comments.
    Diana

  8. #8
    NimpoCub's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokette
    don't know if i am explaining it right....
    Close enough.
    Let's hope it's as simple as a starter & oil change, & another interesting experience.
    You go (fly) girl.

  9. #9
    Pokette's Avatar
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    Got the oil sample back and it has high iron and aluminum, but not too high. that data point suggests that an engine tear down is NOT needed. still waiting on the starter report from B&C. keep your bushwheels crossed!

  10. #10
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokette
    Got the oil sample back and it has high iron and aluminum, but not too high. that data point suggests that an engine tear down is NOT needed. still waiting on the starter report from B&C. keep your bushwheels crossed!

    Personally....

    I would be pushing for a tear down. You may be able to put it together and it will run fine NOW..... But when it starts making metal again at 600 hours you will be paying for the overhaul yourself.

    I don't quite get how this is aimed at the starter. You would have to energize the starter while flying to get it to make metal. If the starter stayed engaged after starting it....??

    Tim

  11. #11
    SJ's Avatar
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    Good luck, Diana! Sorry about the troubles!

    sj
    "Often Mistaken, but Never in Doubt"
    ------------------------------------------

  12. #12
    Pokette's Avatar
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    An engine cylinder is still coming off and taking a look at interior engine parts etc. the idler gear is ground down. one of the reasons for sending off the starter to b&c is to have them check. talked with cubcrafters and they have seen 1 in 100 starters fail. it is known to have one try to engage in flight. it was not engaged when i took off. heard a loud metal banging and then had a loss of power... investigation is still underway. And thanks for the warranty thoughts, but it also looks like my nickle now too....

  13. #13
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Good grief! 131 hours since NEW, and it's on YOUR nickel?? That is ridiculous. If it's a starter problem, THEY should pay for it, I'd say.

    Good luck.

    MTV

  14. #14
    180Marty's Avatar
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    My Dad had a starter engage on a 290HP(GO 480 I think) Lycoming Quail Commander spray plane. He was spraying and when the smoke started rolling out of the cowl he landed in an oat field. No damage to the plane and it turned out it had a weak spring on the bendix that caused it to engage in turbulence.

  15. #15
    Pokette's Avatar
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    warranty 1 year... could still cover some parts. will try my hardest!

  16. #16
    centmont's Avatar
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    Diana has introduced this forum to the ongoing saga of TCM engines in sport cubs. With 200 hours on my brand new engine, I had all four cylinders overhauled because TCM refused to stand behind cylinders leaking through the exhaust valves until those cylinders approached 40/80 compression. I had one cylinder in that range and two more with audible leaks and low (50-60)/80 compression that would have gone out shortly. The problem has been valve guide installation but there are several things different in these newer 200-A engines. Different seating angles on the valves, smaller exhaust valve, different valve materials. The over-hauler said the problems were "geometry" problems with various things just not aligned correctly. Many in the Sport Cub community have had this problem and there are long discussions among us. These airplanes have been beautiful from tail-wheel to firewall. None of us expected that a 60 year old engine would have been the origin of most of our problems. Diana, I suggest you enroll in and review this story in Cubcraftersflyers.org. It has been the source of great disappointment...but now the little engine is running well... Ralph
    "Entropy just isn't the same anymore"
    www.TheCubWorks.com

  17. #17
    Pokette's Avatar
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    Ralph, thanks for the input, it is greatly appreciated. I did have to replace the #3 cylinder due to exhaust valve problem, and with much yelling TCM covered the entire thing under warranty. Now the #2 cylinder is leaking through the exhaust valve too. I am a member of ccflyers and have reviewed the post. did't see anything about other engine problems besides the exhaust valves.

    investigation continues.... hope i get to fly soon.

    Diana

  18. #18
    SpainCub's Avatar
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    Man, the only TCM O200 that I know off here in Spain is at my aerodrom (private airport in US terms ) on a CH 700 which I have flown. Fist cylinder leak and it was a mess... they engine was bought through a distributor in France and I help my friend sort things out cost him some serious change just to send it to their service since they did not have a local service outlet. Engine came back and I had a stutter on the way up..... and almost al the liquids and solids that I had in me came down it´s been three months now and still no resolution.... same issue leakage though the exhaust... nice smoke effect though just a bit expensive! thankfully I had only used about 50m of the 900m available for take off... but since I am a lowtime flyer, my knees shook for an hour or so! I ma much better now

    Sorry to hear your troubles and I hope you get is sorted out soon! The S2s are much to nice to sit on the ground!

  19. #19
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Ralph

    I have followed this issue with interest as I have an O-200A on a Legend Cub with the open cowl and my friend here in town has a Sport Cub S1. He has had one cylinder problem as you describe.

    I asked the Legend guys at SNF if they had heard of these problems from their customers and they said no. Now, that may mean only that they don't know about it as there is no group for the Legend guys like the e-mail group the CC people have. There are a few Legend guys on J3-Cub .com.

    What I'm getting at is, had anyone looked at CHT's in these cases and is it possible that whatever TCM has done wrong is more likely to show up on a tightly cowled engine?

    I have 350 hrs on mine and it's still ok. I know another Legend owner with over 500 hrs. Mine was an early engine as I got my airplane in 2005, so maybe something has changed.

    Rich G

  20. #20
    T.J.'s Avatar
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    This was a new plane, correct? If so, wouldn't the plane mfgr. be the responsible party not the engine mfgr?
    Was the engine in the plane when you bought it?

  21. #21
    centmont's Avatar
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    Some of the guys have the Dynon engine CHT's and have watched them closely. This problem has occurred in a variety of cylinders at different positions on the engine. I live in Montana and rarely heat that engine up....but admittedly I don't have CHT's. Also, there was clearly some misalignment in some of those parts and the problem has been universally related to valve guides. The only suggestion I would have is to watch your compression closely. We have discussed the closed cowl thing and can't make it fit the symptoms. Mine is running great now with stuff supposedly fixed....if it goes south again.....we'll have reopen the closed cowl thoughts. Ralph
    "Entropy just isn't the same anymore"
    www.TheCubWorks.com

  22. #22
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Sounds like BS to me.

    They have only been making these engines for 50 years....and now they can't figure out what is wrong?

    Tim

  23. #23
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Sounds like TCM could learn something from Superior. Built lots of small Continental engines with the Superior cylinders without problems.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  24. #24
    Bill Ingerson's Avatar
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    engine

    If I bought a new plane with a new engine and it died on me like that. They would have to repair or replace the whole engine as requested by my attorney. You have every right for them to pick up the whole tab and
    hotel costs as well. There is safety in numbers, If the cub world steps up and supports your cause, I would think they would gladly help you.

  25. #25
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Re: engine

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Ingerson
    There is safety in numbers, If the cub world steps up and supports your cause, I would think they would gladly help you.
    Bill-

    That won't happen since they have their secret private email list.

    Tim

  26. #26
    Richgj3's Avatar
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    Tim

    The company may have been building them for 50 years, but the people working there now have not. We (Legend and Sport Cub guys and gals) have already been through a rocker shaft SB because set screws were not properly positioned or torqued and in pulling rocker covers, several owners found intake and exhaust rocker arms reversed. This is on brand new motors. I have no doubt these valve guide issues are real and are a function of poor manufacturing and QA process and not installation related. I was just curious about the closed vs open cowl issue but I believe the owners with CHT know what they are looking at.

    Regarding the warranty, most if not all airframe manufacturers rely on the OEM for warranty on avionics and power plants.

    Rich

  27. #27
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Dianna and Ralph-

    Please document your problems.

    http://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/

    Quote Originally Posted by Richgj3
    Tim

    The company may have been building them for 50 years, but the people working there now have not. We (Legend and Sport Cub guys and gals) have already been through a rocker shaft SB because set screws were not properly positioned or torqued and in pulling rocker covers, several owners found intake and exhaust rocker arms reversed. This is on brand new motors. I have no doubt these valve guide issues are real and are a function of poor manufacturing and QA process and not installation related. I was just curious about the closed vs open cowl issue but I believe the owners with CHT know what they are looking at.

    Regarding the warranty, most if not all airframe manufacturers rely on the OEM for warranty on avionics and power plants.

    Rich
    Rich-

    The point is that people ARE having problems and instead of conversing in public about this stuff it is all being kept quiet.

    If there is a QUALITY problem then something needs to be done to get it fixed. Obviously it is not just one airplane.

    Tim

  28. #28
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I've got a Legend Cub coming in for it's first condition inspection tomorrow. Will see what I find. When I asked Legend about engine problems they said they had only had 2-3 out of 150 airplanes.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  29. #29
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
    I've got a Legend Cub coming in for it's first condition inspection tomorrow. Will see what I find. When I asked Legend about engine problems they said they had only had 2-3 out of 150 airplanes.
    Let's take that in aviation terms we can relate to:

    I only have a problem (ground loop) about 2-3 times out of 150 landings...

    So that means on a long day with short hops at moose camp, where I make 20 landings, I would ground loop the plane at least once a week.

    Not very good odds if you ask me.

    New plane, New engine, maintained by manufactures specs....

    Call CC and explain that they chose the power to use, it is THEIR responsibility to step up and fix it; they can go to TCM and get TCM to pay. You want to fly, hence buying the plane.

    Or tell them to come get the bird and refund the $$$$.

    It is ridiculous to spend that kind of money and get that problem.

    Good Luck, it will wear on you, but keep a smile.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  30. #30
    180Marty's Avatar
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    Richgj3 wrote
    The company may have been building them for 50 years, but the people working there now have not. We (Legend and Sport Cub guys and gals) have already been through a rocker shaft SB because set screws were not properly positioned or torqued and in pulling rocker covers, several owners found intake and exhaust rocker arms reversed. This is on brand new motors. I have no doubt these valve guide issues are real and are a function of poor manufacturing and QA process and not installation related.
    Maybe it's time to move Continental to China, like Edo did, to get people that might try a little harder. Other option is to send the poor factory stuff to Lycon and Barrett for final inspection and then it would be pretty expensive.

  31. #31
    Clay Hammond's Avatar
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    It is industry standard that OEM component equipment warranties are administered by the respective manufacturer, not the end producer. The same would have applied to your Supercubs when they were new. Airframe manufacturers certainly serve as liaison between the consumer and the respective component warranties, but ultimately are not solely responsible. CC has a warranty administrator who performs this service, as do all of the other manufacturers out there worth their salt.

  32. #32
    Pokette's Avatar
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    My poor sick S2 has been looked at by several highly qualified IA's. The starter was removed and sent to B&C. The pinion gear was found to be ground down and replaced by B&C for no charge. They did a superior job of looking at the starter as soon as possible and aiding in quick repairs. The idler gear on the engine is also ground down. The most likely cause has been determined to be the starter solenoid. It will be replaced. I hope to be flying again in about a week!

  33. #33
    citabrickr
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    The only thing that would cause a starter to engage inflight would be a bad starter solenoid or starter switch. You would also see ammeter readings totally off the gage as well (and hopefully a blown breaker before the fire starts). I would address that before further attempts at flying it.

  34. #34
    lateralg's Avatar
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    sick new s2

    Probably correct citabrickr. All Diana's symptoms were indicative of inflight inadvertent activation. I have seen starter hangs during start and it is difficult to realize engagement unless you have a starter engage annunciator to help you with that situation. For those of you that don't you can find a simple way to accomplish that on the B & C Specialty Products website. I think it is good information to have. I was very pleased with B&Cs support of Diana's situation. Bill Bainbridge came to her rescue even while he was returning from SNF and preparing to leave for the Alaskan Airman trade show. Highly recommend B & C.

    I do not offer such warm fuzzies for her cylinder support. I am amazed at how little, almost adversarial support she has received regarding the cylinder debacle. I certainly can't and won't speak to all TCM cylinders but I have been involved with her problem from the start and the people who were there to receive her delivery payment could be more supportive and TCM, well, why waste the call. If it was my good fortune to pop for a firewall forward Continental anything I would understand the upfront expense required for removing the cylinders and having a reputable shop properly prepare them to even think about TBO. Hard for me to understand why accountable has not been made to measure for all these issues. Diana's is not the lone case around my aviation circles. The same cylinder scenario is prevalent around here. This is certainly not cutting edge technology just a requirement for more attention to detail during the production process.

    Considering the price that was paid I feel bad for her lack of support given by the manufacturer, TCM and her sales network. Her income (student training) is put on hold while everyone decides how little they can do to help. I thought we were all in this aviation thing together. Most of you who have met her know how she shares her airplane and aviation. All her students are the better for the training they receive from her. Hope we can get her back in the air soon regardless of the poor support so she can continue that saga. And we wonder why we continue to lose good people in aviation.

  35. #35
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Re: sick new s2

    Quote Originally Posted by lateralg
    Probably correct citabrickr. All Diana's symptoms were indicative of inflight inadvertent activation. I have seen starter hangs during start and it is difficult to realize engagement unless you have a starter engage annunciator to help you with that situation. For those of you that don't you can find a simple way to accomplish that on the B & C Specialty Products website. I think it is good information to have. I was very pleased with B&Cs support of Diana's situation. Bill Bainbridge came to her rescue even while he was returning from SNF and preparing to leave for the Alaskan Airman trade show. Highly recommend B & C.

    I do not offer such warm fuzzies for her cylinder support. I am amazed at how little, almost adversarial support she has received regarding the cylinder debacle. I certainly can't and won't speak to all TCM cylinders but I have been involved with her problem from the start and the people who were there to receive her delivery payment could be more supportive and TCM, well, why waste the call. If it was my good fortune to pop for a firewall forward Continental anything I would understand the upfront expense required for removing the cylinders and having a reputable shop properly prepare them to even think about TBO. Hard for me to understand why accountable has not been made to measure for all these issues. Diana's is not the lone case around my aviation circles. The same cylinder scenario is prevalent around here. This is certainly not cutting edge technology just a requirement for more attention to detail during the production process.

    Considering the price that was paid I feel bad for her lack of support given by the manufacturer, TCM and her sales network. Her income (student training) is put on hold while everyone decides how little they can do to help. I thought we were all in this aviation thing together. Most of you who have met her know how she shares her airplane and aviation. All her students are the better for the training they receive from her. Hope we can get her back in the air soon regardless of the poor support so she can continue that saga. And we wonder why we continue to lose good people in aviation.
    Did you guys file the SDR on the cylinder issue?

    Tim

  36. #36
    www.SkupTech.com mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by citabrickr
    The only thing that would cause........ be a bad starter solenoid ....................
    I have accomplished making a starter solenoid weld itself by just being a nice guy and checking/tightening the big wires going into it.... it managed to turn the stud a little, and it allowed just on corner to hit when activated and that corner welded...

    FYI...the ends of the big studs have big flat square sides( 1/2" wide) on the inside of solenoid, and the when turned on a disc comes down and contacts both big studs.... and should go back up when released.... each release also cause some spark erosion.... so your ? year old solenoid is not passing on all the juice it should....

  37. #37
    aktango58's Avatar
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    Ok, so TCM is terrible to deal with warranty...

    We aircraft buyers can help, we should be sending letters to the FAA and TCM stating the fact that TCM is producing unsafe cylinders, and refuse to buy aircraft with them.

    Funny how when market share slips a bit that change comes about.

    One more reason to find an aircraft other than CCs.

    Fingers crossed that you fly soon.

    Come on up and we can take the chicken out if you need O2 therapy.
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  38. #38
    Pokette's Avatar
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    I have heard that there are at least 10 sport cubs with the exhause valve problem. thats more than 10% - quite the high rate - and that is just sport cubs, they have problems across the board with all cylinders in all engines.

  39. #39
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokette
    I have heard that there are at least 10 sport cubs with the exhause valve problem. thats more than 10% - quite the high rate - and that is just sport cubs, they have problems across the board with all cylinders in all engines.
    So....

    Maybe you and your 10 others might document your cases???


    http://av-info.faa.gov/sdrx/

  40. #40
    Pokette's Avatar
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    tim,
    we are not just ranting and raving here. tryint to keep others who are interested informed. there is going to be some action from the owners. we are hopefully working together to get a resolution for us and some $ relief at best, and help future owners of TCM products down the line.

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