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Continental A65 Serial Number ID

R

RON NORMARK

Registered User
RALEIGH, NC
I have a A65 Continental (I think). The data plate has been cleaned of any markings except the serial number. Is there a source to trace this to the model number and date of manufacture? SN 4003668 with a Stromberg carburetor NAS3B

Ron
 
Mine was 4128668 - I wonder if the last three digits are a coincidence?
Bead blasting those data plates does wonders for the info - what, specifically, do you need? I think, legally, all you need is that plate and the logs, or at least a record of total time and the last overhaul.

Model number would be A65-8, probably, and date of manufacture is no doubt something Continental could tell you, but it isn't important. You know for sure it is over a half-century old, thus a tried and proven product.
 
Bob,
I do not have log books for the engine and plan to overhaul it. The same three numbers at the end of the SN is interesting. Maybe that is a code for the model.

Ron
 
No logs generally means experimental, which means what you put on the data tag is irrelevant.

I have seen folks try to sell certificated aircraft with no logs at all, and an entry of "estimated time 5000 hours". When they do that, it is time to leave. It may be legally possible to do something like that in conjunction with a well-documented overhaul.
 
I have built several engines that had no log books. You rebuild it per the overhaul manual and note in the logbook that you start what you did and that the total time is unknown 0.0 since major overhaul. Very common scenario.
 
Thanks Steve, that is what I plan to do. For now, I am sending off the crank and case for inspection and yellow tags.
Ron
 
Hi, We s/n 4740563 as per the logbooks-no date plate. FAA is reluctant to issue a letter for data plate replacement based on the log entry - thoughts?
Ken
 
No data plate means it isn’t an engine. If you can get Continental to issue a data plate, then you can install it and you have an engine.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
Kenn said:
Hi, We s/n 4740563 as per the logbooks-no date plate. FAA is reluctant to issue a letter for data plate replacement based on the log entry - thoughts?
Ken
Click to expand...

I can understand their reluctance.
Who's to say that the engine in hand is the one that actually goes along with the logbook?

FWIW I've seen plenty of engines, generally Continental 4-bangers (and some O300's),
with data plates on which the only number still legible (or even visible!) was the s/n.
Also FWIW I've seen some very nice aftermarket engine data plates.
O-200-Dataplate.jpg

Fresno Air Parts, $37.50
https://www.fresnoairpartsco.com/product/data-plate-c90-o-200-c145-o-300-go-300/
 
This is 11 years old. The regs say you need total time. You do not need logbooks to back that up, but your current log has to say something like "from previous logs, total time 4628 hours." Then you can say TTSMOH zero hours, see back for A/D compliance, and with a data plate you are good to go.
Please resist the impulse to say "total time unknown; estimated 3000 hrs." Not legal.
 
bob turner said:
Please resist the impulse to say "total time unknown; estimated 3000 hrs." Not legal.
Click to expand...

That’s exactly what I got in my engine log book on my LyCon-overhauled engine. And I had to jump up & down to even get the estimated TT from them. LyCon was just going to leave it at 0 SMOH & call it good. They provided the engine, as I didn’t have a core.
 
windy said:
That’s exactly what I got in my engine log book on my LyCon-overhauled engine. And I had to jump up & down to even get the estimated TT from them. LyCon was just going to leave it at 0 SMOH & call it good. They provided the engine, as I didn’t have a core.
Click to expand...
Is LyCon "an agency approved by the manufacturer."? Is LyCon an FAA approved repair station?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.421

An in depth study of the FARs may be appropriate. There is specificity on who may zero time a product and who may not and what the particular repair is called. Repaired, Rebuilt, New, Overhauled, etc all have specific definitions and uses in the FARs. I as an A&P may legally do the same work/repair as LyCon. I can not leave the total time out of the log book nor call something zero time, rebuilt or new. People, not just here on SC.org misuse these terms all the time. When the words are misused, the meaning becomes distorted.

Depending on who or what agency declares an engine airworthy, determines what is allowed to be in a log book. A manufacturer or an agency authorized by a manufacturer may declare an engine zero time after they perform certain work on it, when in fact all of the components could have thousands of hours on them or they may be all new with zero time. The log book will not have a clue to this fact nor will the owner of this engine.
 
skywagon8a said:
Is LyCon "an agency approved by the manufacturer."? Is LyCon an FAA approved repair station?
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.421

An in depth study of the FARs may be appropriate. There is specificity on who may zero time a product and who may not and what the particular repair is called. Repaired, Rebuilt, New, Overhauled, etc all have specific definitions and uses in the FARs. I as an A&P may legally do the same work/repair as LyCon. I can not leave the total time out of the log book nor call something zero time, rebuilt or new. People, not just here on SC.org misuse these terms all the time. When the words are misused, the meaning becomes distorted.

Depending on who or what agency declares an engine airworthy, determines what is allowed to be in a log book. A manufacturer or an agency authorized by a manufacturer may declare an engine zero time after they perform certain work on it, when in fact all of the components could have thousands of hours on them or they may be all new with zero time. The log book will not have a clue to this fact nor will the owner of this engine.
Click to expand...

There is nothing on LyCon’s web site that indicates they are an “agent” for Lycoming Engines or Continental so they are likely not authorized to “rebuild” an aircraft engine. Not sure if they are a repair station as a search of FAA repair Stations using Lycon as the search criteria didn’t bring up anything.

In short, they can only overhaul, not rebuild, and must carry forward the total time. They are a dealer for Lycoming and Continental and can sell rebuilt engines done by Lycoming or Continental, but they can’t rebuild themselves, only overhaul.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
That is what they tell us in those IA seminars.

We were looking for a really good J3. Thought we had found a good one, but seller refused to do the research required to enter total time in the logbooks. No deal. We found a better one at half price on the airport!

Remember, it is far more difficult for the buyer to research total time, and just making up numbers is falsifying records.
 
Lycon didn’t “zero time” the engine, they just overhauled it. I’m not an A&P, but at least I knew enough that I needed them to state the total time of the engine in the log book. They didn’t get log books with the core that they used to build up my engine, so no one really knows this engine’s total time.
 
you can buy a65 cases for 50-100 bucks, with data plates, logs or whatever you want. with a65s there is no sticky points at all with them. dont get tied up in a knot with stuff, not with the 65s. my last 65 purchase was three cases, and the guy just wanted his cost for the shipping.
 
That's kinda what I was thinking - a guy on the J3 forum is trying to get FAA approval for a new data plate - buying a plated case with a logbook would be way cheaper and less aggravating.

Shame on Lycon for not providing a legal engine. On the other hand, probably half the fleet has discrepancies in the "total time" area.
 
14CFR sect 91.417(a)

Here it is - part of the Code of Federal Regulations. Emphasis in bold is mine.

The preamble says the owner or operator shall maintain. . . .


(2) Records containing the following information:
(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.
. . .
(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:
(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.
(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.



 
I cut a lot of that regulation out with ellipses. You do not have to save records of oil changes, minor repairs and alterations, etc, longer than one year. But if listed in (2) above, including ADs, major stuff, etc., and total time, it's the law!
 
Not quite.... Actually, not even close.... Wrong FAR Look at part 43. This part only requires that you KEEP records "Containing" Total Time In Service, and provide them to the new owner upon transfer.

Part 43 explains what is required to be in a Maintenance record(43.9), and separetly, what must be contained in an INSPECTION Record (43.11). The only requirement for TTSN is that INSPECTIONS must contain the TTSN of the AIRCRAFT, Not the engine or prop but the "Thing" as a whole.... There are a few others but those are very specific to Airworthiness Limitations like Life limited parts and/or Airworthiness Directives, etc....

So no, you are not required by law to know the TTSN of your engine.
 
Excellent discussion,my input...

43 allows a mechanic to work on, overhaul a engine and bolt it onto a plane and sign it off as airworthy, total time unknown.

But 43 is maintenance. The plane the engine gets bolted onto has to OPERATE under a different part. In the case it gets put on a 91 airplane, engine total time is required. So the mechanic, repair shop is legal, but the operator can get busted.
 
The engine is legal WITHOUT Total Time in Service.

The part 91 operator has to only KEEP and PROVIDE records that CONTAIN "Total Time in Service" regardless of how old they are or for what type certified component they refer to, Aircraft, engine, or prop.

It does not mean anything more than that.
 
If you make the argument that you keep track of total time for some overriding reason, just remember that you can replace EVERY part in the engine as a maintenance operation and the total time since new still rolls along as per the log book.

The only times I've experienced the feds pushing back against the use of one particular engine on an aircraft has been on part 135 aircraft. A couple of feds have kept specific engines off aircraft because there wasn't a complete set of logs all the way back to 0 time. Never seen it happen on part 91 aircraft. If total time since new was unknown, it was calculated from any existing records such as pilots logs, airframe logs, repair station invoices, etc. Any time this is done, go through the AD list with a fine tooth comb. NEVER take chances with AD compliance.

Web
 
Not sure what Grant is getting at. The FAR indeed has the words "record" and "contain" - but "containing" total time to me means it has to be there. If you have logs back to the manufacture date, and simply haven't added it all up, then maybe your records "contain" total time.

But that's not the issue - the issue is lost logbooks. The very first entry in a new logbook when the old ones have been lost is "from previous records, total time for this engine is 2347.6 hours". Then you have a legal engine, because your records "contain" total time.

You cannot state "total time unknown" or "total time estimated . . ." and still be within that FAR.
 
Bob, That is simply incorrect. Let me explain....
§91.417 Maintenance records.

(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:
(1) Records of the maintenance, preventive maintenance, and alteration and records of the 100-hour, annual, progressive, and other required or approved inspections, as appropriate, for each aircraft (including the airframe) and each engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance of an aircraft. The records must include—
(i) A description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of the work performed; and
(ii) The date of completion of the work performed; and
(iii) The signature, and certificate number of the person approving the aircraft for return to service.

HARD STOP - Now re-read paragraph (a) and pick up at section (2) below....

(2) Records containing the following information:
(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine, each propeller, and each rotor.
(ii) The current status of life-limited parts of each airframe, engine, propeller, rotor, and appliance.
(iii) The time since last overhaul of all items installed on the aircraft which are required to be overhauled on a specified time basis.
(iv) The current inspection status of the aircraft, including the time since the last inspection required by the inspection program under which the aircraft and its appliances are maintained.
(v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.
(vi) Copies of the forms prescribed by §43.9(d) of this chapter for each major alteration to the airframe and currently installed engines, rotors, propellers, and appliances.
(b) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:
(1) The records specified in paragraph (a)(1) of this section shall be retained until the work is repeated or superseded by other work or for 1 year after the work is performed.
(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.
(3) A list of defects furnished to a registered owner or operator under §43.11 of this chapter shall be retained until the defects are repaired and the aircraft is approved for return to service.
(c) The owner or operator shall make all maintenance records required to be kept by this section available for inspection by the Administrator or any authorized representative of the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB). In addition, the owner or operator shall present Form 337 described in paragraph (d) of this section for inspection upon request of any law enforcement officer.
(d) When a fuel tank is installed within the passenger compartment or a baggage compartment pursuant to part 43 of this chapter, a copy of FAA Form 337 shall be kept on board the modified aircraft by the owner or operator.
(Approved by the Office of Management and Budget under control number 2120-0005)
[Doc. No. 18334, 54 FR 34311, Aug. 18, 1989, as amended by Amdt. 91-311, 75 FR 5223, Feb. 1, 2010; Amdt. 91-323, 76 FR 39260, July 6, 2011]
​

------------------
Not sure what Grant is getting at. The FAR indeed has the words "record" and "contain" - but "containing" total time to me means it has to be there. If you have logs back to the manufacture date, and simply haven't added it all up, then maybe your records "contain" total time.
Click to expand...


It does not say "Record" as in a verb, It says "Records", as in a noun.


I think you are misreading the regulation. There are two sections under paragraph (a)
Paragraph (a) says an owner must keep these records....
Paragraph (a), Section 1 - Basically says keep a record of these various maintenance/inspection events for this period of time excluding two specific 24 calendar month items.
Paragraph (a), Section 2 - Specifically says also keep any other records "containing" Time in service, among other things, life limited items etc... nowhere does it say the records must contain Time in Service, Just that If you have a record that Includes time in service then it is subject to Paragraph (a) which says to keep it...

And to understand the context, all of this applies to the reason to keep it, and that is for the purpose of transfer of custody of these records which is called out in the regulations following this one.

-------------------

Now, If you want to know what is required for a log entry, please refer to part 43 which basically says what I wrote earlier....
Part 43 explains what is required to be in a MAINTENANCE Record(43.9), and separetly, what must be contained in an INSPECTION Record (43.11). The only requirement for TTSN is that INSPECTIONS must contain the TTSN of the AIRCRAFT, Not the engine or prop but the "Thing" as a whole.... There are a few others but those are very specific to Airworthiness Limitations like Life limited parts and/or Airworthiness Directives, etc....
Click to expand...






 
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There are no life limited parts on the engine so what does total time matter, especially on an A65. I have logged total time unknown and they haven't thrown me in jail yet and after reading what Grant posted I don't think they will.
 
I still don't understand what he is getting at. I did take English in high school, and am an attorney member of the patent bar, so I ought to be able to read regulatory stuff.

Is he saying that any kinds of records are ok, even if you cannot determine total time from them?

As to the feds looking at this stuff, sure - they don't seem to be interested right now in enforcing the requirement for total time. But look what they do for data tags -

Ours now have a full time job counselling pilots who have airspace violations. I would love to know about the guy who buzzed the beach yesterday - his name and N-number appeared on at least one beachgoer's cell phone, along with his altitude.
 

(2) Records containing the following information:
(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine,

Can this be interpreted any way other than requiring total time? Are we saying that if we don't have the records, we are exempt from this requirement?
 
bob turner said:

(2) Records containing the following information:
(i) The total time in service of the airframe, each engine,

Can this be interpreted any way other than requiring total time? Are we saying that if we don't have the records, we are exempt from this requirement?
Click to expand...

You keep trying to read something that IS NOT there.....It DOES NOT SAY that the records MUST CONTAIN Time in Service. It is saying that If you have records that do contain total time in service they must be retained in accordance with paragraph (a).

Just take the time and READ what the regulations say. I'm sorry if a dumb mechanic like me cant explain it better.

Again the "Content, Form, & Disposition" of maitenence records is covered in FAR part 43, Not part 91.
 
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