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Sand bars and such

O

oldbaldguy

Registered User
While out and about yesterday, I noted that the lake levels are down again, exposing some pretty long and decent looking sandbars. The more I fly my airplane, the more adventurous I get and I think I'm ready to try some beach work. However, the 12 is wearing only 800x6s. So what do those of you with experience think -- are my tires too small to chance it? The sand is smooth and you can see where people and ATVs have been on it, but I'll likely wait until it dries out a little more.
 
OBG,

looks like you need me, an experienced back seat ballast, to come down and look :lol: :lol:

Can you get to the sand without landing? Like with a car or boat and walk it to check?

Dry sand can often be softer than moist sand, but flooded sand can be like mud...

Not a pointed answer, but what my attorney says I can say... 8)

If your feet sink one inch standing, it is really soft and I would stay away without some tires... mickey thompson would be a low choice, but on this site we talk about the right choice...awb!

If you put hardly a dent in the sand while standing, it is firm. Try and put some weight, (jugs of water) aft to help keep the tail down for landing, then you can dump it out for performance getting off. Also breaks on sand can cause BIG holes and the plane to dig in, nose to drop, tail up... Bad day sometimes :bad-words: :bad-words:

Good luck, and remember the camera!
 
Hmmmmm. I drug the most likely spots the other day. The foot prints and ATV tracks were very pronounced and looked to be deeper than an inch or so. The sand is smooth and flat, but it looks pretty wet in slanting light. Maybe I ought to stick to grass and such until summer when things dry out more. A recon on foot prior to committing my precious airplane is a really good idea.
 
OBG Get some big tires and just go for it. Life is to short to be flying with those small things. If you crash on landing you can always find somebody to help you retrieve your plane because they will have their eyes on your tires. :D
 
I lived on South Padre Island for 20 years and drove an old Jeep down the beach (300+ miles of undeveloped, isolated part of the island) and this is what I learned...this is ALL YOU NEED TO KNOW...

Deflate your tires down to 13psi. This gives you m ore traction and won't dig into the sand. The bigger the footprint, the softer the stuff you can travel on. iring down all four of your tires is like giving your vehicle another two pairs of tires, and the more rubber you have on the sand, the more support your tires will get if one of them gets into a bind. Of course, this is for a vehicle. Can you do something similar in your airplane on small tires?

Look at the feet of the sand animals. Their feet are flat. Camels have flat feet. All these people that invest in big tires and such for their vehicles...I was pulling out hummers and F350s, Land Rovers, etc.

Other points that are helpful:

Fly during LOW TIDE--sand will be packed hard from previous water tide

Stay away from salt water. There's a reason the Confederate Air Force moved from the coastal city of South Texas to Midland, Tx (okay, one of the reasons).

Land slightly faster than normal'

no braking!

You don't need huge tires for this stuff unless you plan to land on some really soft sand behind the dunes. All the flying we've done here on the island we had tires the size of tennis balls.
 
OBG
Just because the sand is wet does not mean it is firm--- out here on the rivers in some areas that is true but more often then not it is very soft and in some cases almost muddy--I have 31s and at time I will sink in 2 or 3 inches--be very careful--walking it if you can is the best--and listen to aktango58 his right with everything he said.

Dennis
 
Just because you walk a mile on sand of one consistency, does not guarantee that the next 50' of sand will be the same :eek:

I sunk a cub with airstreaks, (yes, it was a couple of years ago) down below the axles in stuff that looked just like the other stuff that you could hardly put a track on... So be careful no matter what! :p
 
If you can, fly with someone else with more experience. I flew my 11 around with a few other guys with 12's and learned more than I would have experimenting on my own. It helps with confidence levels and might save you a "hard lesson".
 
I was taught to do a wheel landing, or at the very most a tail-low landing---but not a three point on sand if you're uncertain of the hardness. The idea being that if you feel it start to dig in too much you'll have the energy to pull up and go around.

I have 8.00's on my '12 and I plan to put 8.50's on it this winter. Up to now I've gone everywhere my friend does who has a Husky with 26" Goodyears. While neither of us will ever do anything a la 'big rocks and long props' the advantage is that with the bigger tires you just get so much more shock absorption because the pressure is way lower.

My other technique when trying out a new landing spot is to ALWAYS send in the guy with the big tires first for a pirep!!
 
Aviationinfo,

The idea of carrying extra speed scares the, well you get the idea.

I like the idea of letting your buddy do the test! Works even better if you are in the back seat and walk around, then go get your plane...

BUT:

Do some passes across the sand from different directions, and different altitudes, including two feet off the ground. It may take one, it may take 8, I don't know.

How many times perfectly smooth landing areas had a great big dip or hump in the middle... light will fool you on sand! Also get distance by using the time method, (rate in feet per second at given airspeed x time in seconds- or mississippis- equals distance in feet.

Now make high speed wheels on runs to test the sand, if it bathtubs soft, (tires too much air), if it is hardly a track, firm, if the plane jumps into the air bump... you get the idea.

Do not land until you are comfortable. Again, make a few passes to get the feel for the sand, slowing down every time until it feels ok. then land and STOP

Now get out and walk your strip and check your estimated distance with your actual usable, and find out what you did not see when looking it over from the air :crazyeyes: . Mark any obstructions that are hard to see, (holes). Now get back in and takeoff!

The earlier thread, (forgot what it was called) talked about the ?mississippi bars all having the sand drifts one direction, so land downriver... not so up here, so I look all directions. Learning the territory is important!

Have fun!
 
You guys have no idea how educational this thread has turned out to be. It is sooooooo much better than the epic downwind turn thing.
 
OBG,

No, Doing a downwind turn onto final is bad, BAD! :lol: for sandbar landings....

Unless you have the sand drifts formerly mentioned with a down river wind....

NOTE: lowering the tire pressure can be good, but with low pressure you run the risk of tires spining on the rim. Mark the rim and tire so you can tell how much, (just from touching down even), and remember that breaks can spin them right around, (I did this to both tires once, not fun).

Glad we could help!

Where are you located? What river?
 
aktango,

When you suggest doing the high speed wheels on runs, is that not the same thing as doing a non full-stall landing? Or do you mean something else? Seems like the idea is the same, to have the energy to pull up and get back off if you don't like it.

Thx.
 
This is good info. If I was to do this for the first time, I would want someone with me "coaching" me through the process. It would be a lot easier and more educational and fun to have the actual "hands on" training and have someone talking me through the whole time.
 
Aviationinfo , I think the difference between the high speed run and high speed landing is about 15k.......When you HAVE to land in a sandy area(not properly equiped) you have never been in before you want to be as slow as you can get , then at touch down get your tail low and hold it there with power so your not completely at the mercy of the sand.Stay off the brakes if you have the room, if you don't, more brakes = more power.The high speed run is similar to the water skipping you see on the videos,no intention to land, just checking to see how soft it is.
 
aktango58 said:
.......Also get distance by using the time method, (rate in feet per second at given airspeed x time in seconds- or mississippis- equals distance in feet. .........
Click to expand...

100 feet per second at 70 mph (ground speed). Those little IFR (I Fly Rivers) timers are handy for doing this.
 
Bowhunter got it...

Like skis, just skimming along the first pass and letting the tires touch a couple of times

Then you might bounce a couple of times on the next pass

By landing with extra speed, (tail high) you need more room, and the speed will not help if you go into suction mud, just give a quicker over the top.

Hotrod, I like to count and look outside at the same time so I can observe any obstructions... timers (often you are only talking 5 seconds or less) take time to start and stop with one had somewhere not on stick or throttle...

Remember, as implied above, stick back in the lap when you do this; when the tail comes up from a soft spot, stick back and power to give your tail some response. Leave the flaps full on to give the tail even more air! This is a soft field landing, maybe not, but always think that the next ten feet may be soft!
 
Off airport becomes more addictive the more you do it so be prepared to start spending money. Big open sand and gravel bars are the gateway drug to a whole new world of experiences. If you don't scare the crap out of your self the first couple of times you'll start making excuses to buy things like Bushwheels and Borer props because that long sand bar was fun at first, but it gets boring. Soon you will be looking for more challenging places to operate from.

You also need to accept the fact that you might wreck the plane and injure yourself or someone else. Off airport flying requires repeatable precision under varying conditions by skill not luck. Make sure you have the skills to operate off airport before doing so. If you start to second guess any thing at any time during the approach it's time to use that big eraser in your left hand and make the earth disappear below you. If it's not working out for you don't be discouraged, everybody has off days. Give it a rest and try agin later.

Although its fun to talk about "how to" here on SC.org, and there is a ton of valuable information available from experianced pilots, it is no substitute for proper training and practice. I can't tell you how to land at a place I've never seen, in a plane I've never seen, operated by a guy I've never seen fly. What I can tell you how I practice for "off airport" flying and the training I do to stay sharp.

Jason
 
Back in the 1950's I was flying my Aeronica Chief out of Gulfport, Mississippi AND OFTEN WENT OUT TO THE Chandelier ISLANDS TO LAND AND BEACH COMB. I ALWAYS CARRIED A FEW SMALL POCKS (ABOUT 1/4 LB) with me and tossed them out at a potential landing spot. If the rock just went "plop" and stuck, I didn't land, but if it bounced along , I would land. That worked real well for me with small tires. ...Clyde Davis
 
And do not forget to add throttle if you feel the tail going up

Louis

1v.jpg


2v.jpg


3v.jpg
 
Louis, Ouch.... Glad to see you came through it in good shape. These things can be rebuilt. If you don't mind sharing, what do you think put you over, unseen depression or hung up in heavy ground cover?
 
I was not there. Sold this airplane the day before to this friend, very skillfull pilot with a lot of hours on faster and aerobatic planes like Pitts, and it was his first landing in an unprepared field. He identfied later the causes, because there is always many causes to an incident, to:

1- Empty airplane, CG quite in the front

2- Large 60 gallons tank half filled: as he was thinking the tail would go down, he did felt the slushing of the fuel hitting the front of the tank, and giving the necessary second push for the tip over

3- Recessed in the grass, touch just there

4- Landing quite fast, as per a Pitts, with an attitude with the tail high

5- Not being quick enough to pull the stick, preferring to nail the front wheels to the ground, as for a Pitts, and not putting more trhottle for a better stab effect

And the last and main reason:

6- He had forget to file his flightplan that he had in his pocket

He had only a small scratch on top of the head, quite happy that i did not remove the shoulder harness when i sold him the plane.

Louis
 
A picture being worth a thousand words, the best mod is still the training and experience of the guy with the stick I guess...... and how right you are about the shoulder harness, a face saver in the least and a life saver in some of the worst.
 
Another life saver was the fact that cubs have a real fuel tank, as opposed to integrate fuel tank of the late cessna ( wet wings). Not much loss of fuel on the ground before he was able to get out. The fuel tank have better chance to keep it's integrity when they are real than when they are part of the outer skin, part of the structure that will be destroy in the shock. i lost two friends like that: emergency landed of floats on gravel and rocks, the plane did not tip over, but the inner structure of the wing broke and they received all the fuel in the cabin. Fire started right away and they burned. i wonder if those rubber bladder tank were so much dangerous afterall ( water trapping) compared to wet wing tanks.

Louis
 
You guys really know what your taking about. I greatly appreciate the tips and techniques they will help me on my journey on becoming a great pilot. I believe these small details posted here is what separates good pilots from great pilots. :)
 
Louis,

Thank you for that information.

With the kind of help you describe, I think it would be right to do a Low fly by, (even with a car) with some very good liquid thanks :drinking: :drinking:

To people to help everywhere! Thank you! :drinking:
 
Would there be any point in expanding the discussion to include the relative risk of this kind of stuff with respect to whether you can afford a loss?

And what about the insurers? Avemco seems to not care if you are off-airport, but they have special rules for taildraggers. How many losses on sandbars will they put up with before those special rules start driving up the cost of the insurance they will write?

If you just mortgaged your house to buy a pristine Super Cub, then maxed the credit card for Alaska mods, it may be prudent to just pretend to be a bush pilot for a while.

Opinion.
 
bob turner said:
Would there be any point in expanding the discussion to include the relative risk of this kind of stuff with respect to whether you can afford a loss?

And what about the insurers? Avemco seems to not care if you are off-airport, but they have special rules for taildraggers. How many losses on sandbars will they put up with before those special rules start driving up the cost of the insurance they will write?

If you just mortgaged your house to buy a pristine Super Cub, then maxed the credit card for Alaska mods, it may be prudent to just pretend to be a bush pilot for a while.

Opinion.
Click to expand...

Only one fallacy Bob, how many planes turn into scrap on airports? But it is a higher percentage off, yes.

My insurance specifically states I will be off airport...

But great reminder! We are only one landing from it...
 
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