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Wheel penetration skiis

As MTV said, it is amazing how much drag just a small area of tire penetratring through the ski can create. Knowing the difference in performance on my Aeroskis with the skis up or down, I would hesitate to go with a wheel penetration ski if there is an option for retracts. Just getting the rear ski wheels out of the snow more and putting the rear ski axle on top of the ski on my aeroskis increased performance immensely. Look at the photos in my gallery to see what I'm talking about. I told Troy? at Aeroski about this and he mentioned looking into this, but haven't talked to him since - very good people to deal with. Have also talked to the folks at Landes regarding the LH4000s and they were equally pleasant. I would be happy to answer any questions on the R2800s that I can. Just mounting them up today. Merry Christmas.
P.S. Ursa, feel free to stop down to the lower part of the state to check them out.
 
I've waited to comment. There was a time early in the life of this website when I was a real 'thread hog'.

A couple of points:

The Landes LW2500 is a hand-layed fiberglass-cloth/vinylester-resin composite. It is relatively easy to repair to like new appearance compared to repairing a welded-aluminum structure like the Aero R-2800 to new appearance.

Individual skis of both brand of ski seem quite light when picking them up and moving them around by hand. One mention of 57 pounds per ski for the Aero must absolutely be a typographical error or those skis are filled with sand. The Aero R-2800 is a light ski, just like their straight skis.

Both brands of ski will require welding attach points to the gear legs, and both will benefit from 3" extended gear.

Landes runs 8.00x6 tires, the Aero's are for 6.00x6 tires.

I've got alot more to say about both of these skis. I have been around both brands. I'll let this digest for awhile.

PS some guys here like to run a tundra tire on their AWB skis. It has been said that if you're gonna wreck your airplane, it will be on floats. It has said if you're gonna wreck you airplane, it will be in the winter on skis.

Lots of Cubs get wrecked on wheels, but it has been said that if you're gonna wreck your skis, it's gonna be doing wheel ops on rough stuff with the tundra tires down with wheels skis installed.
 
Dave Calkins said:
.
I've got alot more to say about both of these skis. I have been around both brands. I'll let this digest for awhile.

OK it's been long enough....Let's hear the rest :D

And...Which ones would you buy?

Brad
 
Hi Brad, write the check yet? :D

My experience with the Aero R-2800's is limited to installing, flying, and modifying a set of them on an A-1B for an owner who is very persnickity, and seeing them around and talking to owners who have modified them.

My experience with the Landes LW-2500 (Landes Wheel- 2500lb.-load rating per ski) is owning, flying, and modifying them on a PA-14 150 HP, and flying them on Gary Landes's personal 150HP PA-12.

Compared to Fli-Lites, AirGlides, or AWB's, the Aero's and Landes light. Both require welding to the gear legs and will benefit from 3" extended gear as I said before. Both have a little tailwheel on the ski that WILL throw gravel at the tail and aft fuselage of the airplane. I have dealt with both manufacturers, and both are EASY to talk to and can be taken at their word.

The attach points for the Husky gear legs with the Aero's and the arm geometry do not allow the tire to be raised completely out of the snow, leaving about an inch, and the tiny 6.00x6 tire are tiny! and throw lots of gravel and don't float well on soft ground like a grass strip in the spring...at least you have the skis to sink-up to.

The newer Landes ski-tailwheels are far superior to the old Maule ski-tailwheel and leaf spring-style deal. Weight is saved, and drag is reduced. I wouldn't even consider flying the old style.

Either of these skis will not perform well in slush, mashed potatoes, crusty snow, or slightly packed snow where the tire is able to break through the surface and the forward portion of the tire is big drag.

Fluffy deep snow, uphill landings and downhill takeoff the Landes are great skis.

Let me get down to it. If the Aero's on the Husky could get the tire completely out of the snow, I still wouldn't have them on that airplane. It's a heavy airplane, and the place where the Landes shine (deep fluffy snow), the Aero's 'tip-up' and plow. The forward-rear areas are all wrong, and the Aero needs more tail area to keep them from tipping up. I am not the first to voice this theory. A well-know skier-mountaneer-jet captain-mechanic-Cub owner with more back-country/mountain-pilot experiences and who has covered more ground than me and likely everyone else here, who operates a Cub on Aero R2800's has mentioned this and tried several ways to deal with it by adding more UHMW here, there, removing it here, there, trying bigger tires, back to 6x6's, mounting the tailwheel bracket on top of the ski instead of dragging it in the snow like the stock Aero, etc. agrees with this. He happens to for several years performed the maintenance on the most famous of Cub-driver's airplanes and played much in that pilots neck of the Alaskan Wrangell/Saint Elias wilderness with Aero R2800 skis while the other guy is on straight Landes's.

The great equalizer in the mountains is the uphill landing and downhill takeoff.

I simply cannot have a ski that will tip-up in the DDddeeeeeepp snow like those Aero's. This is where Landes's work great. This, plus the toughness of the glass ski makes my decision

Now, what if there was a relatively inexpensive retractable wheel/ski that could run 8.50x6 tires and had all the right proportions, no ski-tailwheel, and was 30% lighter per ski than, say Landes 2500 straight skis? NO compromises? That is what a guy needs.

DAVE
 
If a set of wheel-penetration skis cost 6,000 dollars, it would almost be worth it to have a little patience and spend an extra $ 1500 - 2000 and buy a good used hydraulic ski. Hydraulic skis are better than the penetration skis and whats another $2000 when your already spending $6000?
 
Dave Calkins said:
I've waited to comment. There was a time early in the life of this website when I was a real 'thread hog'.

A couple of points:

The Landes LW2500 is a hand-layed fiberglass-cloth/vinylester-resin composite. It is relatively easy to repair to like new appearance compared to repairing a welded-aluminum structure like the Aero R-2800 to new appearance.

Individual skis of both brand of ski seem quite light when picking them up and moving them around by hand. One mention of 57 pounds per ski for the Aero must absolutely be a typographical error or those skis are filled with sand. The Aero R-2800 is a light ski, just like their straight skis.

Both brands of ski will require welding attach points to the gear legs, and both will benefit from 3" extended gear.

PS some guys here like to run a tundra tire on their AWB skis. It has been said that if you're gonna wreck your airplane, it will be on floats. It has said if you're gonna wreck you airplane, it will be in the winter on skis.

Lots of Cubs get wrecked on wheels, but it has been said that if you're gonna wreck your skis, it's gonna be doing wheel ops on rough stuff with the tundra tires down with wheels skis installed.


Dave,

While your first statement may be true I need to state a point or two:

I hate fiberglass work. It would rather build an entire new ski from aluminum... personal issue there...

Weights... Aero skis 104 lbs by official wt/bal... fittings, axles, release...EVERY THING!

Weld attach points... WRONG... Aero Ski offers a bolt on attach option that you drill one hole through the back of the gear behind the axle, run the bottom cabane vee bolt and the new bolt through for the inside, then the outside is supported by a piece that goes inside the axle. No welding needed.

Wrecking? it is bad no matter what you do, but some truth to the rough stuff with skis still on... :oops:

About the Husky rig, Are you sure that the 'new' style does not allow the tire above the ski????

Again, with a plate built for under the tire, (not an option on landes) the Aeros would be much like the strait 3000's.

I can not argue the deep snow performance dave talks about, but I also am not trying to work my cub in thoes conditions. The deepest I have had these in was about three feet of fluff. I need to leave a paved strip with no snow, and be able to land up river on snow, often times the snow is wet.

There is a hassle factor on any wheel ski. The great thing is we have options!

Dave, thank you for your info. I did not find the same problems on cruchy snow, but my tires are above the ski. maybe I am just not flying into enough tough conditions any more...

There are days to have strait skis though!
 
I tracked down the gent with the used set of R2800s here in Maine. They are 2 seasons old, used little. Champ gear, so to use on a cub they would need rigging kit from Aero, not sure of the cost. He wants $5K for the pair. email me at jcrane@hughes.net and I can put you in touch with him.
Dave: I am going to weigh one of my Aeros tomorrow, I think they weigh over 50 lbs/ski, seems like 57 sticks in my mind. Ive not flown them in severe deep fluff, what you describe with the nose tipping up is interesting.

Jim
 
Good points all, Dave. I've had to go fish several folks out of deep snow who were flying the Aero 2800's. I suspect that the different mounting on the new Aero's would fix the wheel sticking down through the ski thing...It sure does on a set on a Cub and a Scout I've seen lately. I can't see where the Husky would be any different. What you describe sounds like the old mounting bracket setup.

But, if you REALLY want a set of skis, get a set of Thomas Dietrich's Rosti Fernandez retractable wheel skis. They are expensive, but they'll out perform ANY ski, straight or otherwise, on the planet.

Not cheap though, so spend a little less on that new instrument panel, and forgo the autopilot on the Cub..... :angel:

MTV
 
I went from a champ to cub with my skis, I think it cost $350 for the fittings and made the cables myself. Aero sent me the dimentions to the cable...

MTV, are thoes great skis certified for us to use? are you using them?

if so, where are you parked, they would be cheaper that way! :lol:
 
But, if you REALLY want a set of skis, get a set of Thomas Dietrich's Rosti Fernandez retractable wheel skis. They are expensive, but they'll out perform ANY ski, straight or otherwise, on the planet.


Our set is currently AOG, as well as two other sets on a Cub and a Husky in ANC. While I am optimistic we will work through the problems all three of us have experienced, the jury is still out on these skis for us.
 
Do you want to elaborate:

beginner pilot, bad luck, bad design? Wear? idiot neighbor ran into them with snowplow?
 
Yes, George, how about an explanation of the troubles. I worked a set of those skis pretty hard for several hundred hours, with no problems whatsoever, so I'd be curious to hear what sort of problems you've encountered.

MTV
 
We installed our skis last year and ran them about 50 hours. We were pleased with the performance. They were on our Husky and displayed at the AK Airmen's show last May. Our friends, Hans and Peter, got them for their Cub and Husky and installed them this year. About $20k a set, because of the exchange rate, plus installation. Three different installers -- all who have installed many sets of skis.

Peter and Hans broke rod ends almost immediately after installation. We then pulled ours, and on ours, one rod end was bent. We grounded our plane, and have been waiting for a shipment from Europe since early December, but still no parts. There has been discussion back and forth, and we believe that there needs to be a re-design to strengthen that area. There are also rigging issues that would frustrate someone interested in a professional installation.

We are optimistic that there will be a re-design and the installation issues resolved. Until then, we can not recommend these skis.
 
Aktango, on the Husky there is no bolt-on option on their ski-gear.

Mike, I know the new arm and attach points and the Husky set-up mimics the old style. In order to use the new arm, one needs to re-desing Aviat's inboard-welded-on fitting for their Aero-gear leg.

George M., Those are beautiful skis! They are the answer.

I cannot be certain, as I have not laid eyes on Peter and Hans' broken Heim joints (rod-ends), but I saw both installations, and it appears to me that in the wheel-retracted position, the tire is being 'scrunched' pretty hard against that beautiful molded-graphite retract arm, even at rest on the skis. It is a function of the fittings being attached in front of the wheel axle and the clearance between tire and retract arm decreasing as the tire retracts. Any more pressure down onto the ski with the weight of the airplane in, say, landing mode, will certainly exacerbate the issue, and the Heim joint is the weak element receiving the brunt of that load. Thomas will figure it out, he's done a great job producing those beauties. Still, a shame to have your Aircraft On the Ground.
 
George,

Thanks for clarifying. I'm struggling to visualize the failure point, even with Dave's further description.

Has Thomas redesigned the attach gear recently? I know he has lightened them up a little since we bought ours. We sure didn't have any problems with installation, nor did we have any sort of failure, and there are a lot of these skis floating around the Alps as well. The attach gear and hydraulics made our FAA guy crazy, but they work, so....

I hope Thomas gets things figured out, soon. They are beautiful skis, and the performance is impressive.

Sorry to hear of your troubles with them.

Dave, you can order "ski landing gear" from Aviat for the Husky, which is set up for the Aero 2800 skis (or the RF 8001's). Are you saying that that gear isn't compatible with the newer Aero rigging? All this visualization has my head about to explode...

MTV
 
Matt 7GCBC said:
As MTV said, it is amazing how much drag just a small area of tire penetratring through the ski can create. Knowing the difference in performance on my Aeroskis with the skis up or down, I would hesitate to go with a wheel penetration ski if there is an option for retracts. Just getting the rear ski wheels out of the snow more and putting the rear ski axle on top of the ski on my aeroskis increased performance immensely. Look at the photos in my gallery to see what I'm talking about. .

Matt,

Your pics answered a lot of my questions

Thanks
 
George,

any chance you could post a pic or three of these skis?

I am a year or two from having 20K, but would like to see what you are talking about.


Dave, I did not know about the no bolt on for husky, (another reason for a cub I say :lol: ). I do believe that the husky weld on fitting does offer the attach hole below the axle, which puts the ski below the tire, allowing the better performance. But I should call to confirm...

I want to thank you guys for sharing your experience here. We all can learn from this type of input!
 
Thanks Dave, no check yet, waiting for a call.

I'm not a novice with skis and know what I need for my
conditions/purpose. That's why I'm going with Landes,
along with the reports, it's confirmed my decision.

You cannot beat straights for performance and I have a
set of Aero 3000's when I need them and yes they are great guys.

Time to try something new I guess.

Thanks to all,
Brad
 
IMG_0057Small.jpg


IMG_0015cSmall.jpg


IMG_0053Small.jpg
 
a photo of the graphite retract arm on the new RF ski. Gorgeous! The 'offending' rod-ends are visible.

IMG_4237.JPG


Also, a photo of the A-1B Aero R2800 install. On the Aviat "Aero" ski gear (manufactured by Aviat), there is no room for a bolt on saddle for the inboard fitting tabs. The tabs are welded on. Note the outboard tabs are mounted in front of the wheel axle. On these skis, wider plastic has been installed, and the aft section of the 'forktail' has been closed over with the wide plastic. The front edge of the aft side of the tire cut-out has been formed up to not dig snow. The outer edges of the plastic have been bent in a sheet metal brake to avert catching the plastic if a side-slide occurs. Next is to remove some of the wider plastic area near the nose of the ski to help with the fore/aft area 'problem', and then install the tailwheel mount on top of the ski instead of the bottom, as has been mentioned. I've talked to several guys who have been modifying the R2800's to get them 'right'. No one has claimed victory yet, but I'm sure it's there. These are a simple and light "proper" wheel ski that just needs a bit of 'optimizing'.

IMG_4592.JPG
 
wheel penetration skiis

I am restoring an Aviat Husky A1 that had a vist from a tornado and it's going to be a float and ski plane when it flies. George I notice that the pictures of your Husky with the wheel skies have different gear than mine. You appear to have bungees in the airstream like the supercub. Husky bungees are a royal pain in the ass. So I'm curious is this a "c " model mod that I haven't noticed yet or somebody else's? This is a little bit off topic but threads do get to wandering around.

Gabe

I noticed that you do not have spades on the ailerons so you must have a C model.
 
George, let me whisper in your ear.

You said extended Cub gear. 3"?

I'm thinking 35's or at least 31's on that 3" gear.

I've always wondered/dreamed what a Husky would do with "better" 3-point AOA.
 
We fly a Husky on extended gear with AO and another Husky without, both on 31's, and much prefer the Cub extended gear for off airport operations. (It is slower in cruise by about 5 knots.) We tried 35's and didn't like how they felt on our AO equipped Husky -- really hurt the climb rate, added 40 pounds, and took away the snappy Husky feel on a sea level takeoff (making it feel like you were in Idaho).
 
Iceboat,

Aviat Husky model A-1B after 2005 had the "new wing", with extended flaps, deeper chord ailerons, and no aerodynamic counterbalances. The "C" model Husky came out a bit later. Point is, some B model airplanes have no aerodynamic counterbalances, and none of the C's do.

MTV
 
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