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What's the difference? (winter vs. summer survival gear)

I too like my Wiggy's bag(s). I place my bag inside my bevy sack (just like I was going to use it) before I stuff it. Also inside the bag I keep a couple of hand warmers, a small mag light, a can of spam, and most important a gallon ziplock bag.

I don't know about you, but sometimes I just gotta pee in the middle of the night and if you have to get out of the bag to do it you loose allot of heat.

If you find yourself in a survival situation as apposed to a camping adventure you will be glad that all you have to do is crawl in the bag and not get out.

Another thing you should do with your bag is to place velcro closures along the outside of the zipper flap. Sometimes those zippers do not work well in the cold or with cold hands. Make sure your bag is big enough to get in with your cloths and boots on.

As for boots, I have a rule in my aircraft. If you don't have Bata Bunny boots you don't ride with me. Same rule for snowmachineing.
 
Speaking of boots, the Challenger I'll be flying this winter has a reputation for light rudder controls. I'm afraid that with my packs or bunny boots I won't be able to fly very well. So I'm considering a pair of the wiggys muckluk style overboots over regular shoes. Anyone have any experience with them?

Phil
 
Never wore em, but had a person who was supposed to fly with me in a Husky, and the dang things wouldn't fit in the airplane. They also wouldn't work well in the front.

Don't worry about bunny boots. Lots of helicopter pilots wore them, and that's as demanding a pedal work as you'll find.

MTV
 
AntiCub said:
I'm considering a pair of the wiggys muckluk style overboots over regular shoes. Anyone have any experience with them?

Phil

I used them a few times when I lived up north. They're okay for light use to put on over other shoes or boots, but I don't think they would hold up very well to extended rough conditions. Joe Reddington used to wear his over a pair of running shoes during the Iditarod, but I doubt that they lasted for more than one race. Now, I keep mine in the back of the cub in the survival kit since they roll up into a fairly small package and they dont weigh much. However, if I'm gonna be out in serious cold weather for any length of time - it will be in Bunny Boots.
 
mvivion said:
Never wore em, but had a person who was supposed to fly with me in a Husky, and the dang things wouldn't fit in the airplane. They also wouldn't work well in the front.

Don't worry about bunny boots. Lots of helicopter pilots wore them, and that's as demanding a pedal work as you'll find.

MTV

My concern is that my heels rest in cups at the bottom of the pedal, there's no floor under them (that may change by spring). and the pivot for the pedals is about in the arch of feet. So I have to be able to pivot my ankles to work the rudders. That's tough in thick packs or bunny boots.

Phil
 
I hate bunny boots. Always have. 43 years of playing in the frozen north and I've done just fine without them for the last 40. Do you have some good hiking boots? Add gaiters and those will be great for most days you're willing to fly. Lots of companies make good quality pac boots that offer much better "feel" than bunny boots with equivalent warmth. White's, Schnees, Baffin....there are lots of good choices. Wear something moderately good and carry something better in the back. Most guys aren't wearing -60 clothes when they fly so arguing for -60 boots makes little sense. At -60 I'm on a big plane to the islands. Screw little planes! Wear what works for you and go have some fun. Take a good sleeping bag and shelter to spend a night if necessary and don't fret too much about it. Go make some stories of your own.

SB
 
Got to agree with Stewart on the bunny boots. Recognize the advantages of them, just don't think they're that necessary.

For me, the Bunny Boots get tossed in the back of the airplane in January & February and in the back of the truck from November through March just for good measure, but what's on my feet is either Meindl or LaCrosse winter boots. (Meindl down to about -10, LaCrosse Ice King's if it's colder than that).

As strictly recreational guy in the winter, I like to read about -50 or colder from my living room, not experience it...although the one time I had to spend two days helping tromp out a runway for a 180 in -55 to -65 weather, I appreciated the bunny boots. Amazing how -30 felt warm after that. NOt that we experienced it for any longer than the hour it took to warm up the plane, throw some gear in, leave other gear behind, and beat feet back to Los Anchorage.
 
Back to the survival thing, in cold temps the biggest danger to me is me. My survival episodes have been the result of being stuck. Stuck means physical exertion. I tend to stay out too long and spend too much energy before quitting. Dehydration and hypothermia are not something I'd want to deal with inside a sleeping bag while alone. Hypothermic people make irrational decisions. Don't push yourselves past being able to recover physically. That said, water and easy to eat calories are really, really important. I'm going to review my own pack in detail today.

SB
 
wear what you want to crash in

"wear what you want to crash in"
Had an old timer instructor say that a decade ago and since then I have seen it play out several times in AK. Sometimes all that nice survival gear is burnt in the post impact fire (or at the bottom of the lake, etc)........ then you have what you are wearing.
Just something else to think/talk about.

I personally keep multiple lighters & knives on me (to start a quick fire), wear an extra layer or at least have it between me and the door. I still keep a survival kit in the baggage, but I could live without it. (not comfortably)
 
We’re pretty fortunate to have access to modern equipment and materials. Prior to World War II, the noted polar explorer Vilhjalmur Stefansson was contracted by the US government ( “Air Corps of the United States Army”) to produce a survival manual that could be used by air crews flying in arctic regions. This eventually was published in 1944 as the book “Arctic Manual”.

If you can find a copy, it’s an interesting read. While the equipment and materials are different, the message is pretty much the same: stay dry, stay hydrated, stay fed, and don’t kill yourself with carbon monoxide. Stefansson’s expeditions in the early 1900’s with the Natives in northern Canada formed his opinions that the best clothing and sleeping gear was made from caribou skins (though for commercial purposes reindeer hides would be much the same). I’ve actually slept on caribou hides on the snow, and they are pretty darn effective. Thank goodness we have better options for our winter clothing.

Stefansson’s opinion about what food to carry for survival was pretty simple: pemmican made from dried lean meat and fat (equal parts of each). Though not necessary for survival, he wasn’t totally against a little variety.


“Although not nearly as rich in calories, pound for pound, chocolate is usually looked upon as good condensed rations. Rice is another. On the third Stefansson expedition, where fuel did not have to be economized because it was secured along the way through killing seals, one of the favorite rations was a stew made by boiling rice in a lot of water to which were added chocolate and lumps of chopped up suet – in that instance caribou fat.”


mmm,..mmm,..good,...just like grandma used to make !! :D


Throughout the book it’s given to understand that you will be living off the land. Hunting provided a lot of the food used by Stefansson during his expeditions. He was explicit about what was worth shooting. You weren’t supposed to shoot anything smaller than a wolf, as anything smaller wouldn’t provide enough food for the amount of effort and weight of ammunition. He had this to say about polar bears.


“Europeans commonly like the taste of bear meat, saying it is like pork. But it is stringy, gets between the teeth, and makes the gums sore. After you have been on bear for a week or two you are likely to begin cutting it in small pieces and swallowing them before you are through chewing. This applies to cooked meat, not to raw. Cooking increases toughness and brings out the stringiness. Chewing frozen raw bear meat is like eating raw oysters; half-frozen it has, like other raw meats, the consistency of hard ice cream.”


And when things really turn bad:

“In discussion of skin boats and skin clothing, we have pointed out that, before the extremity of cannibalism is reached, all articles made out of rawhide or hide not commercially tanned can be used as food. They have considerable food value and there is no substance in them that tends to make you ill.”

:eek:

Stefansson goes into detail about how to use the equipment he recommends, how to travel, when to travel, and basically how to live in the arctic.

“With the general aviation slant of the Manual, we point out that this is also the emergency outfit that might be carried in an airplane by three men making a flight across the Arctic Sea by any of its diameters. If they make a safe forced landing and can neither fly again nor summon help, if they are in good health at the start, use reasonable judgment, and with reasonable luck, they ought to be able to make their way to some native or white settlement in 2 years, or less, through the use of this equipment.”

,....in two years or less !!!!!!!!! :eek:

Makes our Wiggy's, PolarGuard, Mountain House, sat phones, SPOT locators, GPS's, ELT, etc sound pretty darn nice.

Jim W
 
I have a book that in part discusses Vilhjalmur Stefansson. He was a controversial individual. I'll have to find it again, don't remember the title now. As I recall he changed his name to Vilhjalmur Stefansson because he thought it sounded more explorer-ish. Regardless he was a knowledgeable arctic survivor. Interesting comments you've gleaned from the manual.

I like my satellite devices too. Two years to find my way to civilization would be troublesome for my wife.
 
Footwear

Back in the '70's, thanks to USAF, I found myself working outdoors for a winter at Eileson AFB in Alaska. Could have been worse, this was way better than 'Nam.

We wore mukluks. These were cotton uppers and leather bottoms, with a couple thick layers of felt inside. We wore two or three very thick wool socks.

This was good to about -45 or -50. Unfortunately it was frequently at or slightly below -60 F. Being young helped a lot, that and some plentiful chow-hall food. We didn't have to live outdoors, just work there.

Good old USAF. They balanced things out by sending me to Florida for a summer.
 
After some backorder issues I've received my Hilleberg Bivanoraks and Tarp. My initial feedback is that I couldn't be more pleased. The quality is typical Hilleberg and the total weight is feather light. Makes me look forward to sheep season. The bivies will replace the tent in my winter gear for sure. Good stuff. :up:up

I picked up a bunch of Gu and Gu wannabe's at REI. Small and effective nutrition that's always easy to eat and won't go bad in your pack. That's the best addition I could make to my own stuff.

SB
 
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It doesn't have to be -60 for bunny boots to be worth their weight in gold. Get stuck in overflow in very cold temperatures (like -20) some day, step out of the plane into water that goes over the tops of those boots you bought at Cabela's, and you'd best be getting those boots and socks off right after you get a roaring fire going, cause those feet are going to be in trouble. Bunny boots will keep your feet from freezing even if they're filled with water.

Bunny boots have a proven track record of keeping feet from frostbite. Not all winter flights turn out in real warm conditions, and we all make mistakes at times.

If you're flying in temperatures colder than -20, on skis, bunny boots will get your feet home without frostbite, even in the most demanding of conditions.

MTV
 
The advantage of Bunny Boots was for extended trips where there's no way to dry your gear out. Bunny boots can be wiped dry on the inside and will even release ice if the insides froze with moisture in them while you slept. You can put them on after being wet and cold and sitting out in the cold all night. Because of that feature your feet will baste in perspiration while wearing them. Everything is a compromise. I've had several occasions to be in water over my boots in very cold temperatures. Bunny boots, Sorels, White's, Ice Mans, and Klim snowgo boots have all performed fine. My wife has some Northern Outfitters boots that are probably the best cold weather boots on the planet. Not convenient to wear, but warm even when wet. In my case my boots have all done fine when wet and I never got cold feet while they were wet. But in each case I had facilities to dry the boots that night. My White's boots are considerably taller than Bunnys so they have the overflow advantage. They offer insulation all the way to the top of the boot so they're warmer on the ankles. They interfere with a knee brace I have to wear when riding so I switched to Klim boots which use a neoprene/memory foam type liner. I'd testify to anyone that those Klims are the warmest boots I've ever used as long as I can warm them to room temps before putting them on. They work great when wet but like all boots with liners you need to dry the liners when you take them off. If you're planning an extended camping trip with no facilities to dry your gear out then Bunny boots have a clear advantage. For day use they really don't have an advantage. They're just boots.

SB
 
Hey Phil. Don't put your feet down when taxi-ing. You only do it once! Don't ask. Thank goodness your feet are busy when landing :=). Actually I was considering leaving the floor out of the cub project. I like the view down..
 
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I'm up too early and have time so I'll share a bunny boot story. Several winters ago my wife, daughter, and I were sitting in our cozy cabin enjoying not being outside in the -20* night time temps. It was a little cold and the day had been quiet with a lack of day riders passing by. Not long before midnight the silence gave way to machine noise. Riders were coming and coming fast. We can see approaching lights from several bends up the river because of ground fog and snowy trees reflecting the light so we watched the lights to see if we recognized who would pass. Four machines rounded the corner and shot into my yard at warp speed. The riders slammed their kill switches and ran for the door before their machines fully stopped. Literally. Up the steps to the door and bang, in come five very wet, very cold riders who essentially collapsed on the cabin floor. Four were good friends and the fifth a friend of one of them. They had been riding the creek down from the lake and had intentions of going home that night. Until they happened upon overflow. Three sleds ridden by the three best riders, who happened to be in the front, made it through the water and slush. The fourth, the only woman in the group, got stuck but the boys were able to extract the sled. Now they were all wet. The final rider stuck it good. No hope of getting it out or even getting to it. He waded through the ice and water that was higher than his waist to get to firm footing. When he got there one of the crew recognized he'd walked out of one of his Bunny Boots. His feet were so cold he din't know his boot was gone. They did find the boot and got him on a sled as a very uncomfortable rider. The situation was critical. They had another 15-20 miles to the nearest cabin where they could hope to find refuge. Mine or my neighbor's. They were all in bad shape when they arrived and after a raging fire in the woodstove, a case of Ramen, blankets,sleeping bags, and every pair of dry socks we could rummage up we got all of them down and warm for the night. The next day we saddled up. I took my Viking and a big cargo sled, a chainsaw, come-alongs, and lots of rope and cut our way cross-country to the now frozen-in sled. We got it out after a couple of hours of intense labor and by that time everyone was wet and cold, including me. At the end of the day there was no advantage or disadvantage between any of our footwear. All five of the riders were wearing Bunny boots. I wore Ice Mans. None of us was comfortable and none was in jeopardy of cold injury. That day. The night before they all had been dangerously close to serious injury. All while wearing Bunny boots with wet feet. For anyone to represent that Bunny boots are adequate in cold temps when wet is irresponsible. Bunny boots have easier service for the next day's use. They are not any better for wading in the water at -20* than comparable boots. Cold and wet are a dangerous combination and are best avoided no matter what you're wearing.

My friends and I modified our sled survival gear after that night.

SB
 
My concern is that my heels rest in cups at the bottom of the pedal, there's no floor under them (that may change by spring). and the pivot for the pedals is about in the arch of feet. So I have to be able to pivot my ankles to work the rudders. That's tough in thick packs or bunny boots.

Phil

I hate bunny boots. Always have. 43 years of playing in the frozen north and I've done just fine without them for the last 40. Do you have some good hiking boots? Add gaiters and those will be great for most days you're willing to fly. Lots of companies make good quality pac boots that offer much better "feel" than bunny boots with equivalent warmth. White's, Schnees, Baffin....there are lots of good choices. Wear something moderately good and carry something better in the back. Most guys aren't wearing -60 clothes when they fly so arguing for -60 boots makes little sense. At -60 I'm on a big plane to the islands. Screw little planes! Wear what works for you and go have some fun. Take a good sleeping bag and shelter to spend a night if necessary and don't fret too much about it. Go make some stories of your own.

SB

I have flown and ridden snomachines in about every boot out there. The absolute best bang for the buck, and the only boot I have ever used that my feet did not get cold in are the cabelas Snowy Range boots. I have tromped around in the over flow, fallen in creeks while riding etc, and never had my feet get cold. They are not bulky like the bunny boots of the other boots I have used. The foot well on my Avid is pretty tight and I cant use the brakes with bunnies on do to a cross bar that is over your toes. With the Snowy Range boots I can get on the pedals just fine without hanging up.

A couple years ago I talked a buddy who races the iron dog into using them. Normaly he would only wear bunnies.. He tested them when he went into a river at -50 and got soaked. He swears by the boots now.
 
I must be the odd ball here, because I love Bunny Boots! I've wore them since I moved to Alaska in 1974. Hard to say how many pair I've wore out. I've tried other boots in extreme cold including Northern Outfitters and I always come back to the big white boots. They fit my feet and I find them very comfortable. In high school I was a wrestler and used to cut a lot of weight. It was five miles from my front door to Chugiak High School. I would run it everyday in Bunny Boots. Seemed like a good idea at the time! Walk, run, fly a cub - no problem in Bunny Boots. Plenty warm too!

RD
 
There are requirements in Alaska as you probably know (firearm definitely). How do you like the Hilleberg tent, are they the best out there?
 
In a survival situation, you bet use that cat heater, whatever is available, you can always breathe outside air.
 
Hey Phil. Don't put your feet down when taxi-ing. You only do it once! Don't ask. Thank goodness your feet are busy when landing :=). Actually I was considering leaving the floor out of the cub project. I like the view down..

The challenger has a floor, it's just not structural and there are rudder cables and nose gear stearing under the heal cups that I don't want to get tangled in. What I ended up doing for the first flight was wearing my packs and leaving the tops unlaced. they were loose enough that I had plenty of ankle freedom. I used a pair of the Wiggy's liners too, which are much softer and more flexible than the regular felt ones.

Phil
 
Something I kind of knew about but never paid attention to for winter stowed gear is over-the-boot mukluks. Kind of like Neos waders but with insulation. I was in Wiggy's today for other business and walked out with a pair. These will supplement my favorite boots nicely. There's nothing like buying winter gear in May.

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=41

And since it is summer here's a picture of Neos river Trekkers. AKA Barney's sourdough slippers for the AK crowd (Barney's are a little heavier duty). Very effective and easy to pack.

http://www.overshoesonline.com/rtk8/NEOS-River-Trekker-Overshoe-Hipper-Brown.htm
 
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Something I kind of knew about but never paid attention to for winter stowed gear is over-the-boot mukluks. Kind of like Neos waders but with insulation. I was in Wiggy's today for other business and walked out with a pair. These will supplement my favorite boots nicely. There's nothing like buying winter gear in May.

http://wiggys.com/moreinfo.cfm?Product_ID=41

And since it is summer here's a picture of Neos river Trekkers. AKA Barney's sourdough slippers for the AK crowd (Barney's are a little heavier duty). Very effective and easy to pack.

http://www.overshoesonline.com/rtk8/NEOS-River-Trekker-Overshoe-Hipper-Brown.htm

Not exactly the same but I toss in a pair of gaters when I put the snowshoes in as part of my winter kit.
 
I substute the toll free number to the Margaritaville Beach Hotel for my fly-tent :wink:
 
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(North of the arctic circle, tundra, dry snow conditions.)

Fur hat and mitts.

-40 expedition-type sleeping bag (I prefer down).

If you have a source, a piece of caribou hide (fur on), cut to fit your Therma Rest pad will improve your odds of a good night's sleep.

These are great: warm, lightweight, best thing for use with snowshoes. Downside, they can get wet. Carry bunny boots just in case.

http://shop.mukluks.com/Arctic-with-Ribbon-Mukluks-18995/productinfo/AR-R/

A stove that will run on av-gas.

A carpenters handsaw to cut snowblocks for shelter/windbreak.

Ready-to-eat or boil-in-bag military meals.

A good, free-standing tent.

Rescue strobe light and good flashlight with extra (alkaline) batteries.

Good clothing is paramount. Weight is not much of a consideration since you'll be staying with the 'plane (right?). Down parka with fur-trimmed hood, wind-proof over-pants, as much wool as you can stand. Keep the warmer stuff in the baggage compartment and wear the lighter layers while flying.
 
I found the set to be a little short for me and was a bit chilly in colder conditions. It's better than the old poncho and poncho liner sleep system, but insulation is a little too thin for Alaska winter. In more mild climate (if you are average size) the system is not too bad. The price shown looks to be pretty reasonable.
 
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