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Thread: Borer 3rd seat conversion STC SA5-7

  1. #41
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Interesting to learn the history of the modification.

    Here is a stock baggage floor.
    Click image for larger version. 

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    and a 180 lb. Borer STC'd baggage floor.
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    Several people asked me why you have to change the baggage floor channels on a PA18, one reason is to weld all the way around the tube, the other is interference with the rudder cables. Fairleads in the pictures below.

    Stock baggage floor.
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    Borer STC'd 180 lb floor.
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    Steve Pierce

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  2. #42
    Cubswede's Avatar
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    Great info as usual from you guys! I am considering this mod for my project, to be able to carry more baggage legally. I have bought the wipline 2000 Lbs kit, and FA Dodge extended baggage, so there is room for more weight!
    but my question is where do I buy this STC? Does Dakota cub sell the Sullivan STC?
    i will soon have an aerospace approved welder to weld the FA Dodge float fittings on my cub, would be great to install this mod at the same time..

  3. #43
    Cubswede's Avatar
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    Steve, will it be necessary to trim the aluminum side panels, and the aft baggage panel since the floor is raised a bit? If I remember correctly, the panels is "resting" on the L- angles?

  4. #44
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Call Ron Sullivan at 907-345-4630 Anchorage or 907-262-4630 Sterling for the STC. I don't have anymore contact info for him. You do need to trim the side panels at the bottom since it does raise the floor.
    Last edited by Steve Pierce; 06-05-2017 at 12:03 PM.
    Steve Pierce

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  5. #45
    Cubswede's Avatar
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    Thank you Steve. I guess not all stc holders have homepages. I will give him a call.

  6. #46
    DJ's Avatar
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    When the 3rd seat is occupied does the cross bar get installed before flight or just stowed? Are there any structural concerns for flying the aircraft without the crossbar? A friend of mine will be at Javron tomorrow taking another look at Jay's kit. There was some question as to whether it was SOP to fly with the cross bar removed with using the 3rd seat. Another question was where the 3rd seater would sit if you put the floorboards down on the longerons like an ag model.
    We plan on using the 3rd seat option regularly for medical work here in the Andes of Bolivia. Its got to be better than walking right?

  7. #47
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The cross bar is supposed to be installed in flight. You can physically move the fuselage. I know people who fly without it but I wouldn't.
    Steve Pierce

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  8. #48

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    Unless you have a sufficiently wide passenger, the bar should be installed during flight.
    Last edited by OLDCROWE; 09-28-2015 at 09:23 PM.
    Remember, These are the Good old Days!

  9. #49
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce View Post
    The cross bar is supposed to be installed in flight. You can physically move the fuselage. I know people who fly without it but I wouldn't.
    It's kind of scary to see how much you can move the fuse with it removed.

  10. #50
    DJ's Avatar
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    Thanks guys! Now the talk of emergency egress problems really makes sense. It's hard to believe the FAA signed off on that STC. Usually they aren't that brave. We'll give this some more thought. Probably need to limit the use of the 3rd seat to agile folks.
    What about the two tubes that cross the fuselage to support the bottom part of the rear seat? Are those structurally important as well. I've noticed that some planes have the rear seat bottom removable.

  11. #51
    Aviator's Avatar
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    On my -A model, the crossbar is bolted to the rear seat-back and the whole assembly, seat-back and all, comes out (up 1") when the crossbar-to-fuselage pins are pulled. To get out from the 3rd seat - which, BTW, I don't have - you pull the pins and throw out the whole seat-back. It's not that complicated but should be shown and practiced at least once.

  12. #52

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    In an emergency you do what you have to do. However, I note that most Super Cubs that have all the mods can legally carry about 100 lbs less than my J-3. So if you are going to go out seriously overweight, why worry about an STC? I would bet it takes the 2000 lb gross weight increase to be able to carry three and still have enough fuel to go anywhere.

  13. #53
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Back in the day, all the hunting guides in Alaska commonly hauled 3 people around in their cubs.
    We always stuffed the guides in the baggage area, then put the bar across, then loaded
    The "sport" and away you went, it took a hell of a long time to get the tail up with the guides
    Weight back there, so you just adjusted the flying to match the load........ when I bought my first
    Super Cruiser we quickly realized the huge advantage, to having all that extra weight forward
    Up under the wing, with both of them in the rear seat position. You could lift the tail up in half
    The distance , and you didnt have to shoot the approaches like you were in a Navaho, to keep
    The tail from stalling out from underneath you! Of course we all used GI packboards for a backrest
    For the rear seat, that also lets the 3rd seat persons legs come up past the other persons hips.
    Its certainly very uncomfortable to say the least unless you are a tiny person.........a 6 ft guide in the
    Baggage is going to have the back of his head push so far forward his view will be mostly of his knees?
    If your planing on an STC ( which no one had or even heard tell of) making a cub fly better with the 3rd
    Person you may be unpleasently surprised.....,....jm2cw

  14. #54
    DJ's Avatar
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    -Bob
    I hear what you are saying...We are planning to go experimental so STCs and gross weight shouldn't be an issue. If we buy a Cub that is already built we'll be sure to put the 2000 lb. kit on it. If we build a kit, Jay has tested his wings to 2200 lbs. Besides that we'll be trying real hard to keep the empty weight to 1100 lbs. or less.
    -TurboBeaver I am definitely paying attention to your comments about the tail being heavy. If we build we'll go with a widebody to get skinny people side by side in the back seat and a pod to put any luggage underneath. With wider people we will just have to know our limits.

    In general I am gathering that the 3rd seat is pretty unpopular but I think we'll still end up using it a lot. I've personally shared the backseat of a 1960 (narrow body) 182 with two other adults on a 20 min flight. When the options are squeeze or walk, most people squeeze in

  15. #55
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    I put the 3rd Seat/180 lb baggage STC in about everything we rebuild but don't bother with the seat belt fittings.
    Steve Pierce

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    Thanks OLDCROWE thanked for this post

  16. #56
    DJ's Avatar
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    Does anyone have pictures of two full size people in the back?

  17. #57
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ View Post
    Does anyone have pictures of two full size people in the back?
    I gave these guys a ride yesterday



    Glenn

  18. #58
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Ron Sullivan Contact Information?

    I have a phone number for Ron Sullivan of 907-561-2550 but it has been disconnected. That same number is listed on Atlee Dodge's website. I called them and they are checking. A google search resulted in contact info of Airframe's site of 907-345-4630 or 907-262-4630. The later has an answering machine for someone with a different last name. I left a message at both numbers. Would like to purchase the 180 lb baggage STC. Thanks.
    Steve Pierce

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  19. #59

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    Spoke with Ron yesterday at the 907 345-4630 number.

    Adam

  20. #60
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    OK, thanks. I left a message at that number.
    Steve Pierce

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  21. #61
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Just spoke to Ron, 907-345-4630 is his number in Anchorage and 907-262-4630 is his number in Sterling.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  22. #62
    giangab's Avatar
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    Very interesting development: understood the frame modifications, BUT:

    What about the CoG shifting to the back when fully loaded, does it exceed the limits?

    A tail heavy plane would be very damgerous to fly, besides exceeding the original MTOW.

    Any Weight and Balance considerations and tale off n lamding caracteristics chamge?


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  23. #63

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    Weigh the plane if the W&B is not relatively recent and do the math.

    I have flown a Cub with a far forward CG that required significant ballast to fly solo (it could not be loaded beyond aft CG while obeying the baggage weight limitations and the 1900 lb MLW), a 185 that needed a little ballast in the extended baggage to be legal with two people up front, and a 185 with aft CG issues when running around with any significant load. None of the owners were aware of the CG issues that they should have been aware of because they did not bother to do the math (although they all had reasonably recent W&B's...).

    The Cub I last flew is not exceptional in any respect. I can carry maximum weight in the extended baggage and baggage area (180 lbs), half tanks (18 US gallons), and a 190 lb passenger and be at the aft CG limit. Normally I cannot fit 180 lbs of stuff into the baggage area, so most of the time heavier passengers are no issue.
    Last edited by StudentPilot479; 03-20-2019 at 05:21 AM.

  24. #64
    DJ's Avatar
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    This is an EX Cub. 180 hp. Full lightweight electrics with a Catto prop. No issue with the 3rd seat. I use it routinely.Click image for larger version. 

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  25. #65
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ View Post
    This is an EX Cub. 180 hp. Full lightweight electrics with a Catto prop. No issue with the 3rd seat. I use it routinely.Click image for larger version. 

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    For anyone trying to visualize how this, came into being was Alaskan guides needing to haul the client and afield guide in the Cub at the same time to save making TWO trips back in the 50's everyone started hauling guides in the baggage compartment. So when hiring guides the often considered short/ lightweight fellas
    For this very reason! Anyway almost all Cubs used by professional guides were set up with a "GI" packboard as the passenger "seatback" two small holes were drilled in the plywood seat bottom to accommodate the two pins that were already in thr packframes. Note at top in 1st picture. The frame then leaned back against removeable crossbar. A boat cushion was an added luxury for the person in the baggage, hardly ever used. The guide then got settled into the baggage first: Then the crossbar was droped in place; then the packframe as droped in. The client then got into the rear seat; leaning up against the packframe; same as if was on his back. This positions the guides legs going past his sides , passing beside the packframe on both sides. See pics below for what this looks like. About ever Cub in Western Alaska had one of these packboards in it in the 70's /90's that was used for guiding. Hope this helps all that have not seen this before;

    Sent from my LM-X210 using SuperCub.Org mobile appClick image for larger version. 

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    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 03-20-2019 at 09:24 AM.
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  26. #66

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    How much cost this STC?


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  27. #67
    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    This raises another question which has probably been beat to death already. I know a PA-12 is designated 3 place, even if they will carry up to 5. (No, don't even think about asking) What about carrying an infant or toddler in a 2 place like a PA-18 or Bird Dog? Is it legal to have "2 people" on board within the weight limit of seat and seat belt? If so, when does 2 small people (kids) exceed the limit?

  28. #68
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WhiskeyMike View Post
    This raises another question which has probably been beat to death already. I know a PA-12 is designated 3 place, even if they will carry up to 5. (No, don't even think about asking) What about carrying an infant or toddler in a 2 place like a PA-18 or Bird Dog? Is it legal to have "2 people" on board within the weight limit of seat and seat belt? If so, when does 2 small people (kids) exceed the limit?
    About 1988 I saw an Eskimo gentleman, land his Aeronca Sedan in McGrath and he and Momma got out of the front seat and a small boy probably 8 years old. Rear seat passengers included 3 young girls looked bout 14/12/10.
    Then momma went back and got 2 more young boys from the extended baggage! maybe 4/6 years old! Momma took all the kids to trading post for goodies n ice creams.
    Daddy went into McGuires for a few frosties!!! Lol. I walked by the Sedan and he had the rottonest 30" Airsteaks
    I had ever seen. I would not have attempted one T/O with them empty in a J3........
    They loaded via reverse osmosis, he then pulled out and layed the whip to that old tired C145, (bet she hadnt been inspected in 20 years) And it sounded as weak as well water , might have been makin 100hp maybe. But up came that big tail and in bout 6/700 ft; she came right off flat and climbed out like a single engine Otter off the top of the wing; and headed out west! Just a normal day for a man, and a Sedan, and 6 kids!

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    Last edited by TurboBeaver; 03-21-2019 at 02:00 PM.
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  29. #69
    skywagon8a's Avatar
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    I saw a Mooney land at PLY. When it puled up four adults climbed out and then the pilot opened up the outside baggage door and four youngsters jumped out.
    N1PA
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  30. #70
    DJ's Avatar
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    Double buckling is legal.

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