• If You Are Having Trouble Logging In with Your Old Username and Password, Please use this Forgot Your Password link to get re-established.
  • Hey! Be sure to login or register!

VFR vs IFR Supercubs

Is your Supercub/Cruiser VFR or IFR?


  • Total voters
    18

Samsam

Registered User
It seems that most Cubs I come across are VFR only.
I'm trying to find out if this also true here...
 
Sam,

The PA-18 is not approved for IFR on the TC, nor is the CC-18-180. It is possible to GET such an airplane approved for IFR, but it requires more than just adding the required equipment.

I have seen one no-joke IFR LEGAL PA-12, and one PA-18. There may be lots more out there, but the question should be LEGAL IFR, not just "equipped for IFR". There is a difference.

MTV
 
mvivion said:
Sam,

The PA-18 is not approved for IFR on the TC, nor is the CC-18-180. It is possible to GET such an airplane approved for IFR, but it requires more than just adding the required equipment.

I have seen one no-joke IFR LEGAL PA-12, and one PA-18. There may be lots more out there, but the question should be LEGAL IFR, not just "equipped for IFR". There is a difference.

MTV

Thanks, Mike.
It seemed counter-intuitive given the number of SC operating in the NW/Alaska.
 
Got my curiosity up and I checked some T. C. for a specific reference to IFR, because I frankly have not thought about it, or noticed it. Seems all the T.C.s mention basic required instruments all aircraft have to have, however I could not find but one reference of IFR certs. in the Piper series and that was on a placard on some PA-32's. Cessna's were spotty in that 180's / 185's have a note of DAY-Night-VFR-IFR (as applicable), but the 172's / 182's do not. I always thought IFR certification was a specific equipment requirement, not an aircraft certification requirement.



Steve
 
MTV,

What is the difference in a Legal IFR certified SuperCub and one that is merely equiped for IFR???

Please explain?
 
Steve,

You may be right. It can certainly be done, whether or not the airplane's TC calls it out.

I just looked at a few TC's, and it's a real mixed bag.

Here's the note from the Top Cub TCDS:

Additional Limitations: Airframe life limits: Refer to latest FAA approved revision of the
Maintenance Manual, Document TC10000AMM.
Kinds of operations: Day, Visual Flight Rules (VFR).

That is an older version of the TCDS, so night may have been added.

From the Cessna 172 TCDS, under Applicable to all models: a placard is required, which states...

Known icing conditions to be avoided. This airplane is certified for the following
flight operations as of date of original airworthiness certificate:
(DAY NIGHT VFR IFR)" (as applicable)

The Cessna 180 has the same requirement in it's TCDS.

Of course, now I can't find any such notation in the PA-18 TCDS, so maybe it was my imagination at work again....

The notation I quoted above is on all the Cessna TCDS. The Husky has a requirement in the TCDS which says that all placards called out in the Approved FLight Manual must be installed at all times. The AFM specifies a placard which says to operate as Day/Night, VFR/IFR.

A couple of other TCDS stated that the equipment required by the FAR's for specific types of operations must be installed, which would imply that it's just an equipment requirement. So, why would some manufacturers put it on the TC?

MTV
 
I thought once I hooked the 496 up to the cigarette lighter my top cub was IFR legal? :eek:

sj
 
And here I thought that an IFR Supercub meant I follow roads/rivers/rail roads, or in other words, look out the window.

M1
 
Steve,

Nope, you need to have a placard, displayed in clear view of the pilot which states "Garmin GPS 496 must be in "instrument panel" mode at all times when operating in IMC" :lol:

MTV
 
Just give me enough stuff to do a 360, and get the heck outa here! My 496 and 2-1/4" T&B meet that need. I must admit that I plan to practice the GPS approach into my home field (KSRR). You never know.
 
IFR Cub

My Cub came with a bunch of gyros and I used to make full use of them in the days when getting a Special out of Teterboro was both possible and about the only way to get going on a low vis morning. But I've had my butt kicked on enough clear days to convince me this is probably not the right airplane for serious IFR. Has anyone had any experience with ice on a Cub? I'd be interested to hear.
 
A good friend has an IFR Cub. He lives in Florida and keeps
the plane hangared on Amphibs. This Cub was build and
IFR certified by CubCrafters after much much testing and
inspecting and delays with the FAA. (Not that there's anything
wrong with that) She is complete with a 530 and Sandal(sp?).
She was featured two years ago in SPA's "Water Flying"
as "The Ultimate Cub".
So it can be done.
 
Rob,

One day I flew a Cub that was painted all white, except for a single blue stripe down the side, from Fairbanks up to Bettles, AK. Enroute, I did a bunch of radio telemetry work on wolves. This airplane was ALL white, including straight skis. From where I sat, I couldn't see the blue stripe on the side.

After four hours of moseying around at low level, temps of -30, and a sort of haze, which is not uncommon at cold temps in the north, I went to BTT for gas. The runway there is long, groomed for skis, and there was no wind. I decided to run it on fast for grins, and slide to the ramp.

The airplane came out of the sky at 65 to 70 as I began to slow. Fortunately, I was close to the ground when it did.

There was close to 3/4 inch of opaque ice on everything. If I'd looked more closely, I'd have seen things changing shape.

Duh.....

MTV
 
IFR Cub

Mike, Glad you're around to tell the tale. Guess we can give the Cub a little
credit too. What you say about color is interesting. My second plane had
white wings when I bought it, but when I had it repainted bright yellow I was surprised how much faster frost would melt. My present Cub is bright lemon yellow with a dark grey band running along the top of the wing, from the edge of the fuel tank cover to the beginning of the wing tip. I did it for greater visibility, but it also breaks up frost and snow the minute the sun hits it. Darker colors work best in this regard. Trouble is they absorb a lot of heat in warm weather and that's not so good. Having once 'ridden along' in a 206 amphib, as if fell from 6000 to 1700 over Buffalo, NY, with everything iced up - including the windhshield - I haven't had the nerve to repeat that experiment in my Cub.
 
98940055_Large_.jpg
 
AVEMCO agrees that I may fly my SuperCub IFR, IMC, provided my instruments are IFR CERTIFIED, and I am IFR current.

The FAA examiner has given me IFR check rides in my SuperCub and signed my logbook as IFR current.

What an I missing here????
 
flyer,

Did the examiner do so in actual IMC? Did you FILE IFR? People are instrument certified all the time without ever having been in IMC, and there's no requirement to do so in an IFR approved aircraft--you only have to demonstrate your competence, which you can do as long as you have the equipment. We have an IFR approved GPS in the Top Cub, but that doesn't mean it's IFR approved.

Can you, and have you, flown in actual in the Cub?

MTV
 
MTV,

40 hours filed and flown IMC. ILS, VOR approaches.

Barry Schiff once gave an airline pilot his ATP check ride in an IFR certified SuperCub.
 
mvivion said:
flyer,



Can you, and have you, flown in actual in the Cub?

MTV

Mike-

I have a close friend who has a top cub. It is IFR and he does fly it IFR and shoots approaches...etc...all certified...its even got an HSI in it. I can get you a picture of the panel if you want?

Tim
 
Tim, et al.....

I am NOT doubting that Cubs have been approved for IFR. If you READ my first post, I noted that I personally know of one that was, and I'm sure that there are a number of others.

As to a Top Cub being approved for IFR, I only posted what is on the TYPE CERTIFICATE, fer cryin out loud. Can anyone explain how an airplane which is specifically restricted to Day/VFR on its certification basis can then be approved for IFR?

The other question, with "Top Cubs": Is the airplane actually a CC-18-180, or a CC modified PA-18? I hear a lot of people referring to "Top Cubs" when in fact they are talking about a modified PA-18.

Nevertheless, I am simply questioning what the certification process is--I don't know at this point.

I do know that the TC for some aircraft essentially precludes IFR certification, unless there is some other basis, which I assume would have to be an STC or field approval for IFR operation??

I seriously doubt that ANY airplane that's properly EQUIPPED for IFR would ever be questioned by the FAA, except after an accident, perhaps, and probably not even then.

My question is what others have asked: What is REQUIRED in the regulations for LEGAL, squeaky clean, IFR certification?

MTV
 
I have all the instruments in the Torch. They have come in real handy a couple of times. I know of a few Super Cub pilots that just had basic VFR instruments in their planes and they inadvertently encountered IFR conditions. When I walk to the AC store in Kotzebue I walk by one those pilot's grave site. My airplane may not be legal for IFR and I don't intentionally fly IFR but I have had to get out of some tough spots a couple of times. I don't mind the weight in the cub.
 
Our Super Cub, N18SY, is definitely VFR only but I have a friend with an IFR amphib Super Cub also based at KANE that has an awesome IFR panel as shown below -- HSI, Garmin 430 & 330. Built up by Bob Schefter in Fergus Falls with Avionics help from Wipaire.

P8220008.JPG
 
flyer,

Ok, please cite the regulatory guidance which pertains to IFR certification on TYPE CERTIFICATES. I know what the equipment requirements are. My question is why do some TC's specifically provide for IFR, some don't, and others are silent on the subject?

Again, I am quite familiar with the EQUIPMENT requirements. That's not my question, and I'm not sure that's the only issue that has to be addressed, but it may be.

MTV
 
Back
Top