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Thank a sheepdog today for they are standing guard!
I love the comment from the Boyd Group Guy....."If the bullet had gone through a window the airplane could have gone down...."
Huh, Really? News to me. we used to dump the valve on the ground from max differential for maintenance. It just makes a bit of vapor and thats about as exciting as it gets....Also they were on approach possible below 8000', the cabin altitude of most....Am I wrong here? someone please correct me if I am. But has anyone ever heard of an explosive decompression causing a crash in a modern aircraft?
Well, there was Payne Stewart, but he was just a golfer in a Learjet...Originally Posted by Grant
John Scott
I don`t think the Payne Stewart crash was due to explosive decompression, as I remember it it was caused by a bad door seal that failed and everyone on board passed out then the plane ran out of fuel and went in.
I believe Stewart's case was one of a loss of pressurization or failure to pressurize as they climbed, The crash was the result of running out of gas after everyone on board had died of hypoxia.
The Aloha 737 years ago did a pretty remarkable job of coming apart from major cracks in the structure (NOT a little hole), but was still flyable. The Drop Top 73.
MTV
THIS MYTH WAS FEATURED IN...
Episode 10: Explosive Decompression, Frog Giggin', Rear Axle
ORIGINAL AIR DATE: 1/11/2004
Myth Title: ---- Explosive Decompression
Myth Description: ---- The Mythbusters took an airplane and made it air tight and filling it with air to make the conditions ideal for upper atmosphere pressures, then punched a hole in it with a gun first, and when that didn't work, with high explosives.
MythBusters on the bust: ----
Hypothesis: ----
Procedure/Experimental Design: ----
Results: ---- Little effect
Conclusion: ---- A simple gunshot will have little effect in terms of explosive decompression, which works bad with high explosives
Busted or Not Busted: ---- Busted
Yep. . . If I recall correctly, they shot it twice with a 9mm. The first shot through the skin didn't do anything. Well, it put a 9mm hole in the skin. So, they shot it through a passenger window. That didn't do anything either, except put a 9mm hole in the window.
Hank
Did he get the wolf?
There's no way a 9mm would take down an airliner unless it was used to shoot the pilots. On the other hand this was going to happen sooner or later, considering some of the dick weeds that are packin', that we are forced to fly with.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-gun, just anti idiot with a gun.
Bob D
Taledrger,
Well Said.
Dave
Are you one of those guys that thinks everybody with a gun (except you, of course) is a dickweed?
Let's try to stay friendly while we discuss this subject.
This was a regrettable situation for everyone involved, and, as Bob mentioned, was probably inevitable.
Eric
Speedo
Nope.
Bob D
deleted
Ok, question time. Theoretically let’s say the first officer has an issued Kimber .45. May the captain banish the gun from the cockpit? If so, where would they put it and secondly, does the pilot have more say so over the operating of the airplane then the federal government with their policies? Does the first officer need to tell the captain (or vice versa) of concealment? If so, does the rest of the crew (per policy) need to know too? Granted the nomenclature on the I.D. tag would state this (thus the ability to bypass security) but how often do the other members of the flight crew look?
…and for the previous comments of calling people the names of human male organs, I am PRO gun, PRO concealment, and PRO flight crew being locked and loaded.
I’d put my money on the guy was bored and decided to play with his gun…
Lippy
I consider someone who carries a firearm but is not properly trained and current to be pretty much the same as a VFR pilot who intentionally flies into IFR, because sooner or later somebody is going to die for no reason. To carry a firearm into the cockpit in a Jepp bag is one thing, but I don't think I'd want to strap in next to some guy or gal with a handgun strapped to their side like a Walter Mitty version of Dirty Harry. Now ask yourself, if you were stuck in the back end of an airliner when some drunk started a ruckus, would you want one of the crew to come busting out of the cockpit trying to cap the guy? I wouldn't. Besides, why take the risk of blowing .45 cal holes in the airplane or innocent passengers when you could light up somebody's life just as well with a nice taser?
I don't see the connection between being paid to go through training and conducting oneself safely. Can you elaborate?
Eric
Speedo
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I guess I'm even more confused. You don't have a lot of confidence in the program, but if you are paid to take the training then the program is acceptable to you. I don't see how the money in your pocket fixes the training program - it's still the same program, isn't it?
If the program is flawed it seems to me that the emphasis should be placed on making it better rather than agitating to get paid to take it. Maybe that's what you were trying to say and I've just misunderstood your post.
Eric
Speedo
I just want to make a couple of points but will not go into a lot of detail because a lot of the program depends on the bad guys not knowing the ins and outs of the FFDO proceedures.
There are no .45s in the cockpit, only issued weapons, ammo, holster, etc. is allowed to be used. There are NO personal preferences permited.
The weapons training is extensive and damn good. Most of the firearms instructors are retired Border Patrol pros.
Walter Mitty types are few. Most of the people rejected for the program get weeded out at the pyscological portion of the interviews.
I don't know what happened, but I am betting it's going to be the new holster/securing system that is now in use. There had been a previous event because of it. (not in an airplane).
I don't understand the negativity. These are men and women who, on their own nickle are trying to provide a service to their country in a time of war the best way they know how. They expect no pay and pray their services are never needed.
And for oldbaldguy, the only time pilots come out of the cockpit since 9/11 is to whiz and that is done with coordination with the flight attendants. The FFDO has jurisdiction in the cockpit only, his ONLY job is to protect the cockpit. If something bad happens in the back, you guys are on your on and the flight attendants are counting on your help.
Delete
You guys can argue about anything.....
I don't know what the official training is but I have rode jumpseat with Pilots that are carrying. They don't just walk around with the gun in their flight bag or a jeep bag. The Gun is carried in a locked case. The gun and holster is removed and secured in its lock box before the cockpit door is unlocked. So don't think that pilots are just walking around the terminal with a pistol on thier belt. As for a hole in the fuselage taking down an airplane no one has ever been around for a pressurization check. Every door seal has more leaks that a 9MM hole will cause.
Bill
Having been a loadmaster on 747's (and some of the oldest ones) I can tell you that between all the doors on the plane (with all the liners etc removed) they leak tons of air all on thier own, There is no way a bullet hole would even be noticed.
deleted
Top Ten US Airways' Excuses For Pilot's Gun Going Off in the Cockpit
David Letterman
Compliments of David Letterman, and the Late Show Top Ten List Tuesday night.
10. Thought it would be fun to shoot empty liquor bottles.
9. Air traffic controller's "Clear to land" misheard as "Squeeze off a "round."
8. Media never reports when plane takes off and pilot's gun doesn't go off.
7. Pilot thought he saw one of them "Cloverfield" Godzillas -- Buy "Cloverfield" on DVD April 22nd.
6. Oh, like you've never fired a weapon onboard a passenger plane before.
5. Don't worry -- His parole officer was in the cockpit.
4. Chillax, bro.
3. This is what happens when you let Dick Cheney fly a plane -- Did you see it coming folks?
2. If you didn't want gunplay, maybe you should have flown United!
1. Pilot distraught after picking Duke to win it all.
Ok folks, within the last two days I received the internal skinny “from a reliable source” on what happened. The name of the person from whom this information came will go to the grave with me… Much of what I was told I won’t speak to but I can say the person that shot the hole
Chuckling…
Lippy
Fascinating. I was completely unaware that a penis is required to use/misuse a gun. Imagine that!Ok folks, within the last two days I received the internal skinny “from a reliable source” on what happened. The name of the person from whom this information came will go to the grave with me… Much of what I was told I won’t speak to but I can say the person that shot the hole
Chuckling…
Lippy
Unless you are shooting blanks.
Can anyone with official knowledge either confirm or deny if this is the official procedure?
http://www.crimefilenews.com/2008/03...policy-of.html
If so, it looks like an accident waiting to happen.
Now before you think I’m way out of line and lack of a penis isn’t relevant… Wait until the official ruling comes out. If in it, there is any resemblance of truth you’ll understand the humor. Perhaps not having a penis helped!
Still chuckling!
Lippy
Unfortunately, the pilots name and other details were released to the media. 55 year old male. Captain.
Bill
Hmmm… According to the media it looks like I was wrong. Guess I can tack this one up on the list! The media never gets it wrong do they?Naa, never… especially when reporting aviation related news events.
Lippy
Hiya' EverBODY -
Really surprised that NO ONE (even my fellows "pros") on the thread has picked up on a real KEY point.
The incident occurred at EIGHT THOUSAND FEET! See...we have this thing called "sterile cockpit". Sterile cockpit exists from THE GATE to 10,000 feet MSL and vice-versa on the way DOWN.
We ( I and my cockpit mate) are FORBIDDEN by regulation to even converse, much less engage in ANY activity not IMMEDIATELY and DIRECTLY connected with operating the aircraft. No superfluous talking. No reading ANYthing but a checklist. Not even filling out the logbook is allowed during this phase of flight.
Bet a week of my pay this was the end (last leg goin' home) of at least a THREE if not FOUR day exhausting "torture test" (trip).
And this....BOZO.... in order to SAVE sixty or ninety seconds after setting the parking brake and shuting off the engines at the gate (so as to race out to the employee shuttle bus to the employee parking lot quicker) went ahead and started trying to pack away his "piece" when he had NO BUSINESS doing so.
Trust me on this. This fella' is in MEGA troublewith both the Company AND the FED's.
Cloud(youcanhavemygunwhenyoupryitfrommycolddeadhan ds)Dancer
A SUPERIOR pilot, uses his or her SUPERIOR judgement, to stay out of situations which may require the use of their SUPERIOR skills.
More trouble than even you thought, Cloudy!Trust me on this. This fella' is in MEGA trouble
(CNN) -- An US Airways pilot who aviation officials say accidentally fired his handgun in the cockpit during a flight will be fired, a spokesman for a flight officers group said.
The airline has begun the termination process for Capt. James Langenhahn, said Mike Karn, vice president of the Federal Flight Deck Officers Association.
Langenhahn told police that he was stowing his gun in the cockpit of a jet preparing to land in Charlotte, North Carolina, last month when it accidentally fired. The federal Transportation Security Administration is investigating the incident.
Calls to Langenhahn's home in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, were not immediately returned.
Don't Miss
Pilot suspended after firing gun in cockpit
In an e-mail, US Airways representative Morgan Durrant said the company's policies prevent it from commenting publicly on a personnel matter.
Karn said his group, which represents pilots who are federally trained and allowed to carry firearms on flights, will fight the termination.
"This was accidental not intentional," Karn said. "This is not the way to treat a long-term pilot."
He said he did not know how long Langenhahn, 55, has been a pilot for US Airways but said he is a veteran with the airline.
The bullet from the H&K USP .40-caliber handgun penetrated the left side of the jet's fuselage but did not hit any crucial wiring or instrumentation, the TSA said.
The gun discharge was the first public incident of its kind in the history of the Federal Flight Deck Officer program, which has trained thousands of pilots to carry weapons in an effort to improve aviation safety.
Created in the wake of the September 11 attacks, the program was approved by Congress as part of the Homeland Security Act on November 25, 2002.
I'm sure his "New Union" will take care of the problem.
Bob D
They might be doing him a favor by firing him.
At least he might have a better chance....ALPA wont be any help...As usual...
Ok, for starters I was*w*rong, Rong, Rong, Rong, with a capitol R. That said, would filing a NASA report do this **guy** any good? It’s my understanding that they are for the unintentional breaking of an FAR. It’s unlawful to shoot “from” an aircraft, but how about shooting “inside” an aircraft? It may seem nebulous but a smooth talking attorney might be able to get this guy’s butt out of a sling on a non-published technicality.
What do you think?
Lippy
Oh I disagree Pat, I think that is about all they're good at "keeping idiots employed".
Bob D
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