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Thread: installing flaps on a PA-18 95

  1. #1

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    installing flaps on a PA-18 95

    I'm sure it has been discussed, but has anyone installed flaps on a PA-18 95? If so, was it worth it and what did it cost? Was it hard? Would you do it again? Any info would be appreciated.

  2. #2

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    It will require welding in pulley brackets, flap handle brackets, and then installing all the parts for the wings. I would suggest you look at uncovered wing and take lots of pictures. Its a pretty big job but only should be considered if you are recovering your entire airplane. I'd locate the parts before tackling that job. And you should have a professional welder on hand. I just completed the fuselage part of the conversion. It will make your airplane more desirable upon resale but don't know if its worth it from a flying perspective. If you don't need the extra performance I wouldn't do it. Buy one already with flaps. My 12 doesn't have flaps and I don't' need them.

  3. #3
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Kase has some information on doing it.

    My vote is to keep it light.

    Tim

  4. #4
    jnorris's Avatar
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    Don't do it!!!!
    Joe

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  5. #5

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    The pulley brackets are all there, as is the flap handle mount. This plane could have gone either way out of the factory. Right now it is in near showroom condition so a recover is out of the question. I am looking for someone who has actually installed flaps on a PA-18 95, I know you guys know your stuff but it doesn't sound like you have actually done this exact mod. Anyone out there that has done it on a flying aircraft?

  6. #6
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by flynfishr
    The pulley brackets are all there, as is the flap handle mount. This plane could have gone either way out of the factory. Right now it is in near showroom condition so a recover is out of the question. I am looking for someone who has actually installed flaps on a PA-18 95, I know you guys know your stuff but it doesn't sound like you have actually done this exact mod. Anyone out there that has done it on a flying aircraft?
    You would need a new seat base too, if it does not have the bracket on it.

    Tim

  7. #7

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    As I said, the bracket is there.

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    The world is full of big Cubs with flaps. It is not full of 90HP lightweights. Sell it, and get what you want. When you are going ten mph faster and burning twice as much gas, you will remember your 90 fondly.
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  9. #9
    jnorris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner
    The world is full of big Cubs with flaps. It is not full of 90HP lightweights. Sell it, and get what you want. When you are going ten mph faster and burning twice as much gas, you will remember your 90 fondly.
    Amen, Brother Bob. I couldn't have said it better myself.
    Joe

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  10. #10

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    flaps

    As I understand it ALL pa-18 airplanes had all the provisions for flaps when they left the factory so it would just be a matter of modifying the wing for the flaps then installing the pulleys,cables and flap handle. If it was mine and I was going to keep it I would do it in a second as it adds to the fly-ability of the plane. Wayne Mackey has done this mod several times, you could call him at 406-951-3935 he could tell you what is involved.

    Dave

  11. #11
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    You probably have a later year 18-95 which actually has the same fuselage as the 18-150, so adding flaps would be a bolt in installation in the fuselage. The wings would need some major work to install the trailing edges and hangers, this would best be done at wing recover. Also, if you still have the stock tail, you would also have to switch to the balanced tail feathers. I've never flown a 18-95 with flaps, but every 18-95 I've flown I really missed having flaps, so I would definitely add them if it was possible.

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    I already have balanced tail feathers. I was really hoping it could be done without recovering the wings, they only have 150 hrs since new. I will talk to some local shops here in Alaska and see if I can find a fabric artist. Thanks for the info and phone numbers. I will post when I get moving on it.

  13. #13
    agavmechanic's Avatar
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    For what it's worth, I also have a pa-18 that used to have a 95 in it but was upgraded with a borer stc and currently has an 0-320. But no flaps. I did some digging, and to put them on, some Ia's tell you it's just a log book entry with the drawing, and some tell you it's a major alteration hence needing a 337. I looked up the type certificate data sheet, and depending on what serial no. yours is, there was two drawings for flap installation. I finally obtained the drawing I need for mine. Drawing no. 13766. Next for me, is to obtain the parts. If you need any more help, as far as getting the drawing you need, let me know. Good Luck.

  14. #14
    Bill Ingerson's Avatar
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    Flaps

    I have a project I'm working on, a PA-18 105 special that came with no flaps or brackets. I bought all the weld fittings and welded them on using a gas welder. Then we found some pacer flaps and lengthened them to the right length. All this work was done by a experienced cub builder and will work just fine. You will need to get into your wings alright and recover when done.
    Go see Dan at Dans Aircraft in Anchorage, they recover and can do everything you need done.
    Just my two cents, you will pick up some weight, but for me its going to be worth it.

  15. #15
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    flaps

    I have installed flaps on two different 95 cubs. Both had all the welded
    fittings in place. the only work was the wings. both aircraft when completed landed much better, but the take offs weren't any shorter
    with the smaller engs. That said I would have the flaps on one if I
    owned it .Wayne
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  16. #16

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    Hello,
    Just wondering if you ever installed flaps in your 95' if so how long did it take and appx cost?. I have a 59 model pa-18-95 and am considering it sometime in the future. Mine is plumbed with the pully brackets etc.
    Thanks,
    Shelby

  17. #17
    S2D's Avatar
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    I think there was a more in depth thread on this recently

  18. #18
    Bonanza32GF's Avatar
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    If your PA-18 95 is a light one, please let me know if you take Bob Turner's advice.

  19. #19
    cubunltd's Avatar
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    If you already have the flap brackets in your fuselage, the only weight you'll be adding is the weight of the flap handle and the cables running up to the wing. take the weight of the aileron and subtract the weight of the trailing edge and rib parts you'll be removing, then add the weight of an aluminum bellcrank and it's ttiny mount bracket, two flap hinges and one control rod per wing and thsts approximately how much weight you'll be adding per wing. Not much! for the benefits gained. It's your plane. Do what you gotta do. i would.
    P.S. you don't have to recover the entire wing. Remove the fabric where the flap will be located all around. When done recover that portion covering at least two ribs outboard of where the fabric was cut. Rib stitch, tape, paint, done.

    John

  20. #20
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Resurecting an old thread because I have a similar question....

    Having had fuel tanks added to my J3 without recovering the whole wing, I do have a hard time believing that similar surgery couldn't be done on the trailing edge to install flaps.

  21. #21
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    It's a major change to the wing so I'd imagine a recover of the wings would be in order unless you are okay with lots of ugly tape lines and patches.

    That being said I'm firmly in the camp of please don't add flaps to a small engine (light) cub. They really don't improve your landing distances any and mess up the simplicity that is a J3/PA-11. Having recently flown both with and without flaps, your money is best spent burning gas and getting good.

  22. #22
    supercrow's Avatar
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    Agreed Crash. Many yrs. ago my brother did flaps on a J-3 that was used on floats. Had a flat prop (74-36) on it with an 0200 and it was a great performer on 1500 size float. However, I didn't see a major improvement in other than float use, and I now agree that they shouldn't be altered from original. Just go find a S. cub and go from there. Obviously it is his airplane to do as he wishes but today I wouldn't alter one for anything.

  23. #23
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    Well, I agree wrt to J3, PA-11, or even a PA-18-95. However, the plane I'm eyeing is a PA-18 105 special, and it's already been modified with a 150HP O-320 but does not have flaps. So we're talking about early super cubs here. My fundamental question is the same as the OP: How much would it cost me ballpark to do?

    My A&P did a fantastic job of cutting in a fuel tank without recovering the whole wing and I was quite happy with the looks of the final result. But it was almost 40 hours of work. Is this same, or more you think? Plus the cost of parts from where, Dakota Cub?


    Quote Originally Posted by supercrow View Post
    Agreed Crash. Many yrs. ago my brother did flaps on a J-3 that was used on floats. Had a flat prop (74-36) on it with an 0200 and it was a great performer on 1500 size float. However, I didn't see a major improvement in other than float use, and I now agree that they shouldn't be altered from original. Just go find a S. cub and go from there. Obviously it is his airplane to do as he wishes but today I wouldn't alter one for anything.

  24. #24
    cubdriver2's Avatar
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    Dave Hartman did this on the 18-95 he bought a few years back. I don't think he recovered the whole wing?

    Glenn
    "Optimism is going after Moby Dick in a rowboat and taking the tartar sauce with you!"
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    I would imagine it would be at least 40 hours of labor. Might be able to find a set of stock flaps that are already covered, that would save some time. I'd think that flaps would add at least 10k to the value of the plane, so if you could get it dine cheaper than that, it would be worth it. Curious as to what the pros say...
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  26. #26
    RaisedByWolves's Avatar
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    Also keep in mind you may need to weld the gross weight tubes. A lot of the early 105ís didnít have them


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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  27. #27
    windy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RaisedByWolves View Post
    Also keep in mind you may need to weld the gross weight tubes. A lot of the early 105ís didnít have them


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Plus you have to do some more welding here and there to install the pulleys for the flap cables and the flap handle. Iíll bet adding flaps is more than 40 hrs, even without recovering wings. I added flaps to my PA-12, but I did a bunch of other mods at the same time, so I donít have an exact installation time estimate.
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  28. #28

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    If it’s a tango 105 with toe brakes you can’t use the stock flap handle or location.
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  29. #29
    soyAnarchisto's Avatar
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    I'm not sure what a tango 105 is... But this one does have toe brakes. I've not inspected the plane - not sure how interested I am in it - trying to figure that out. But I have read that some of the early PA18's had all the tabs welded in - just that the flaps were not installed. This particular one is a '53 - which is pretty early I think. I'm trying to figure out what to be looking for.

  30. #30
    TurboBeaver's Avatar
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    By the time you get them installed at Dan's with parts you need, even with brackets. I am guessing you will be north
    Of $10k. Then when you get to the STOL contest some kid
    "With out flaps" that knows how to properly 'side-slip' his will likely easily have numbers lower than yours.........
    As Denny and Reid have already told you the T/O difference with 90hp is negligible. Why would you bother
    To alter a perfectly good original Cub for nothing. This is like taking an original Winchester rifle that's 125 years old and boring holes in the frame because "you think" adding a reciever sight will 'make it better'...... If the Cub has survived for nearly 80 years unmolested, what on earth would ever make you think 'flaps' would make it better.???
    Good Luck with it, but your headed down the wrong road. E
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  31. #31

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    I have a J-3 which has been converted to Pa-11 configuration by STC. It also has flaps also done by STC. It has a 90 and a pacer tail, and VG’s. It weighs 843.


    A low HP cub will not climb as well, haul weight or work altitudes as well as a higher HP cub.


    My light cub gets off the ground as short as most higher HP cubs. The speed at which cub will first fly depends on the wing not the HP. A lighter plane will fly at a slower speed. The HP simply accelerates the plane to that speed. The lighter it is the slower it will start to fly. In many cases a light cub with the right prop will fly sooner than the higher HP cubs with flaps.


    Flaps add additional lift but also add additional drag. The lower HP cubs are not able to take full advantage of the additional lift on takeoff because of the additional drag. Popping some flap may help brake ground but must be bled off promptly on takeoff.


    On the other hand on landing, a light cub with flaps can fly significantly slower and therefor land significantly shorter. Slips aid in loosing altitude, not flying slower.


    If a person wants to be hauling weight a higher HP cub is certainly better.


    If a person is prospecting new and difficult strips he can land in shorter more difficult places with less risk than a heavier cub. That’s not saying he can get out better. Once on the ground often times a strip can be worked onto make takeoff easier.


    If the low HP cub driver isn’t carful he can easily land in places that may be difficult to get out of.


    In my opinion the light low HP cub with flaps is a delight to fly. I find that often I can go places with my flap equipt low HP cub that I won’t go with my heavier 160 HP cub.
    Last edited by reliableflyer; Yesterday at 06:59 AM.
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  32. #32
    Crash, Jr.'s Avatar
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    It's a 105 cub so not exactly a great loss of a classic if it's converted. On the other hand it is a massive expense and would be better undertaken at time of rebuild rather than with a covered wing and fuselage. Like others have said, there are brackets that need to be welded into the fuselage as well as false spar replacement, rib modification, and adding hangers to the spar. It's no small job and I doubt 40 hours would cover it.

    Really, it would be best to talk to the mechanic who you would have do the conversion to see what it would take or even if they are comfortable doing it. Asking strangers on the internet what your mechanic should charge you is a good way to be on bad terms with a good mechanic.
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  33. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by TurboBeaver View Post
    By the time you get them installed at Dan's with parts you need, even with brackets. I am guessing you will be north
    Of $10k. Then when you get to the STOL contest some kid
    "With out flaps" that knows how to properly 'side-slip' his will likely easily have numbers lower than yours.........
    As Denny and Reid have already told you the T/O difference with 90hp is negligible. Why would you bother
    To alter a perfectly good original Cub for nothing. This is like taking an original Winchester rifle that's 125 years old and boring holes in the frame because "you think" adding a reciever sight will 'make it better'...... If the Cub has survived for nearly 80 years unmolested, what on earth would ever make you think 'flaps' would make it better.???
    Good Luck with it, but your headed down the wrong road. E
    I’ve read this opinion here a number of times, but I remember when Matt Piatt was getting the shortest landings at Valdez with a light flapped PA-11.
    Catch the fish, to make the money, to buy the bread, to gather the strength, to catch the fish...
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  34. #34
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    All of the Super Cub fuselages I have ever worked on from 1952 model -95s , 125s, 135s and 150 had all the flap pulley brackets welded in the fuselage. Figured it must have been easier on the production line. It is easy to modify the ribs, make a little jig, cut the tails off and rivet the angle to the rib that the false spar attaches to. Personally I wish people would leave the 90 hp Super Cubs alone. They are great flying airplanes for their intended mission but people want a big engine Super Cub and think they are saving money by converting one.
    Steve Pierce

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