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Thread: Performance Airmotive 3" exhaust

  1. #41
    spinner2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bearsnack
    My prop guy is the one that introduced the term cavitating to my vocabulary. He is on the conservative side of the park when we are talking climb props, it is hard to get him to pitch a prop down towards the climb pitch.
    I think you are correct in saying it depends on the mission, in the past my cub has been used primarily to commute to work, light and empty most of time. I do some hunting and fishing with it.
    So I guess I have been waiting for any excuse to reduce my commute time. Flying a 41 pitch where I run now would be a waste in my book.

    What produces more thrust, a 43 at 2500 RPM or a 41 at 2500 RPM?
    My goal is to have the high RPMs and the 43 pitch prop, that is what the exhaust mod is for on my cub.
    I had a new 41" pitch Borer on a fresh 160 hp O-320 in my -18. I could pull 2700 RPM in a 500 fpm climb. At WOT and straight and level flight I was well over 2700 RPM. I had the prop re-pitched to 43" and now I'm 2700 in straight and level flight and about 2500 RPM in climb out.

    Takeoff performance was probably slightly better with the 41" pitch but the 43" is very close in takeoff and the climb rate is better with 43". Cruise speed increased about 4 mph. For me the 43" is the much better choice.

    My exhaust system is stock.
    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything." Wyatt Earp

  2. #42
    Lance's Avatar
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    I put the performance air on the Green Hornet at rebuild. I did not like it at first but I am used to it now. It is louder, and you have to re-learn the sounds of your engine because it is definitely different. I use LS 20-3G's and have no complaints with noise. I've had a few "sounds tough" comments from the ground, so that was good.

    Lance

  3. #43
    DW's Avatar
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    Damn one more thing I must have!

  4. #44
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    I awoke thinking of the Sutton system. I really like the simplicity of the design, the weight, etc. I like opening up that space on the firewall. I'm not a big fan of cutting a hole in my cowl, but I would probably get over that. I like the idea of keeping the crud off my gear as well. I already have the small starter and alternator, so that shouldn't be an issue. I have the oil cooler up front, wonder if that would cause me any pain. Anyone have any more thoughts or feedback on that Sutton system? I should add I'm a 160hp 320. What I don't want is a negative hit on performance.

  5. #45
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crash
    Add a Bose X or Lightspeed Zulu headset to your Christmas list as well. You'll need them.

    I can "just" tolerate my Performance Exhaust at around 2300 RPM. At 2400 RPM it will rattle your brain out after a few minutes.

    Crash
    Loud like my 185 @ 2850 or just louder than the average cub?

  6. #46
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywagon185
    I awoke thinking of the Sutton system. I really like the simplicity of the design, the weight, etc. I like opening up that space on the firewall. I'm not a big fan of cutting a hole in my cowl, but I would probably get over that. I like the idea of keeping the crud off my gear as well. I already have the small starter and alternator, so that shouldn't be an issue. I have the oil cooler up front, wonder if that would cause me any pain. Anyone have any more thoughts or feedback on that Sutton system? I should add I'm a 160hp 320. What I don't want is a negative hit on performance.
    Sutton exhaust is one step to putting a constant speed prop on...FYI.

  7. #47
    Redbaron180's Avatar
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    So how come nobody talks about the Leading Edge system anymore. I got one some years back and I love it. heavy, but it should last forever. Stock PA 18 150 with a new 82/43 Borer I get 2800 in level flight, that is checked with a digital tech. seems like that is better than Spinner is doing with a 160hp..............

  8. #48
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Redbaron180
    So how come nobody talks about the Leading Edge system anymore. I got one some years back and I love it. heavy, but it should last forever. Stock PA 18 150 with a new 82/43 Borer I get 2800 in level flight, that is checked with a digital tech. seems like that is better than Spinner is doing with a 160hp..............
    Based on what folks have said on these forums, not much bang for the buck in comparison. I'd hate to spend $3k plus and not get a performance gain. I am really only doing this to get rid of the muffler AD, nothing more. We fly about 200 hours a year and its quite a PIA to manage the current stock muffler. In fact, our airplane is the one KASE tested the LEE on so his experience on this airplane is the primary reason. I really only should be considering the Atlee given my pipes are good.

  9. #49

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    How about just gutting your existing atlee or piper muffle. That will cost you next to nothing and you will no longer have to deal with the ad. I second crashes statement on noise it was cool for about ten minutes. but it sure sounds good when your on the ground people say.

  10. #50
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gander
    How about just gutting your existing atlee or piper muffle. That will cost you next to nothing and you will no longer have to deal with the ad. I second crashes statement on noise it was cool for about ten minutes. but it sure sounds good when your on the ground people say.
    If "gut" means no heat, then no way. It was -19 here this morning.

  11. #51
    Crash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywagon185
    Quote Originally Posted by gander
    How about just gutting your existing atlee or piper muffle. That will cost you next to nothing and you will no longer have to deal with the ad. I second crashes statement on noise it was cool for about ten minutes. but it sure sounds good when your on the ground people say.
    If "gut" means no heat, then no way. It was -19 here this morning.
    That's all the Performance Air muffler is. A gutted stock muffler design with a 3" tail pipe. I've run a Performance Air muffler in winter and can tell no difference in heat output.

    The PA-18 muffler AD was based on Piper's original muffler which used .035 thick stainless for the can and tail pipe. They tended to crack under the heat shroud and because of this, spurred the current AD.

    Atlee's stock heavy duty PMA'd muffler uses .049 SS throughout, just like the Performance Air muffler. It also has MUCH larger gussets attaching the tail pipe to the collector "can" just like the Performance Air muffler.

    If Atlee had gone to the FAA as an "alternate method of compliance" with his HD muffler, just as Butch did with the Performance Air muffler, you would be out from under the AD with a "quiet" $400.00 muffler.

    Take care.

    Crash

  12. #52
    Louis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobnall
    Anyone care to share?
    I have put one of these "muffler" that don't deserve the name since they don't muffle anything. My ANR went crazy, send them back for repair, had a terrible week with the horfull sound. Lot of headache. Got them back, broke them again. Switch to another pair, still too much loud. Bought a decibel meter on ebay. 94 db with a real muffler ( 180 hp), 108 db with one of those new muffler. Figure it was ok to have 14% more sound until some guy explain to me that this difference between 94 and 108 is like double the pressure on the ear.
    Back to my old real muffler. Passengers don't complain anymore. No more headache for me. Figure i will keep some hearing longer. Happy to got rid of those hp that are not free after all. Fed up with all this HP gain without any data on sound. There are called "muffler" after all, may be someone should care about db.
    So if anybody want the big loud one, i have only 15 hours on it. Now i have to find out with my mechanic wich one was it. I know he did not have to make a hole in the cowling
    Louis

  13. #53
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    I have put one of these "muffler" that don't deserve the name since they don't muffle anything.
    Louis
    Please do share "who" is the loud one. Sutton or Atlee?

  14. #54
    Louis's Avatar
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    Ok, here the story.

    94 db with the old muffler that comes with a 180 hp stc by CC

    108 db with the big Atlee muffler and that 180 hp

    100 db with a 150 hp motor and a big atlee muffler ( don't know if it is the same model than for a 180 )

    15 hours on the Atlee
    0 hour on a Sutton that is brand new and that i won't even consider to test. This one you have to make a hole in the cowling. half price of retail for any of them. Both are made very sturdy. I just can't stand the db. Shipping from Canada.

    Louis

  15. #55

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    I have a buddy who put a sutton on a exp cub with 10:1 pistons and a few other things he thought it would make his plane sound more like a cub and it still sounds like a modified go-cart. I will take the noise over the fart muffler.

  16. #56
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gander
    I have a buddy who put a sutton on a exp cub with 10:1 pistons and a few other things he thought it would make his plane sound more like a cub and it still sounds like a modified go-cart. I will take the noise over the fart muffler.
    So your implying that the Sutton would make my cub sound like a go cart?

  17. #57
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    Ok, here the story.
    ........ 100 hp with a 150 hp motor and a big atlee muffler ............

    Louis

  18. #58
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Louis
    0 hour on a Sutton that is brand new and that i won't even consider to test. This one you have to make a hole in the cowling.
    Louis
    I'll give you $500 for that brand new Sutton you don't want

  19. #59
    Louis's Avatar
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    Corrected, thanks

    Louis

  20. #60

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    If you compare the 2 mufflers just on coolness of sound the sutton is weak however the performance airmotive is very load, a gutted stock muffler is about right for noise. Not a big issue for most but i am still a bit of a kid and refuse to grow up so cool sounds i like.

  21. #61
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    I hear ya! I don't make many friends in my area with my 185, and I think that sounds about as cool as they come.

  22. #62
    Louis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywagon185
    I'll give you $500 for that brand new Sutton you don't want
    Do you need the paperwork ? Is the STC transferable ? It was made for a 180 hp pa-18.

    And you are short of a couple of $$, i told half price ; )

    The sutton looks pretty simple compare to the others. Pity i lost faith. I would had prefer it if i was sure of the db. But i won't make a hole just to read it is too loud.

    Now i think i will move this under the selling forum. Not sure it is ok to keep it here

    Louis

  23. #63
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    Ah, yeah, I'm 160hp 320 so that won't work. No worries. I do like the idea and simplicity. I don't much mind the noise. Heck, I ripped the interior out of my 185 just so I could hear it better!

    [/url]

  24. #64
    Crash's Avatar
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    Jerry and I also did a climb test to 3,000 feet right after changing the exhaust systems to see if there was any RPM & FPM change between the systems.

    While not exactly up to MIT standards, we did develop our testing methods over couple of beers at the Supercub.org get together after the Alaska Airman's show.

    I feel they set a baseline for saying there's not much advantage to one system over another of the ones we tested. There were some definite noise draw backs to the one system mentioned.

    I wish we would have had a bone stock Piper muffler and a Sutton system available with which to compare.

    Maybe at some point we can pull all of these systems together along with a stock 150 hp Cub to compare to our 160 and 180hp Cubs. This would settle the matter once and for all.

    It would also help to have a couple more mechanics involved with the changeovers, photos and stop watches.

    Maybe next summer.....

    Take care.

    Crash

  25. #65
    Louis's Avatar
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    Can't find the small adds section. My english is not good. What is the section to sell something ?

    Louis

  26. #66
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    Louis,

    Classifieds.

    Crash,

    I have a 150 cub with thrustline and VG's and Atlee 3". The original exhaust is in the hanger, it is airworthy, but was going to have problems before the next 100 hour, so was time to change. I did get more RPM's on the change.

    Anyway, I am game to do a test if you want!
    I don't know where you've been me lad, but I see you won first Prize!

  27. #67
    Louis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skywagon185
    I ripped the interior out of my 185 just so I could hear it better!

    [/url]
    92 db on cruze in a 185 equipped with a big 550. You will be served well with one of those performance exhaust in your cub ( see, i don't call them mufflers anymore)

    Buy the way, my db numbers where not on take-off, but in cruze 65%. And we did tried it with a MP propeller, thinking the sound would go down at 2200 rpm. No way, i don't understand why, but the db does not seem to be an equation of RPM, lower RPM with higher MP seems to give about the same as high rpm-low MP. Like if a 65% would always give about the same sound. I was sure a lower rpm would have give me lower sound, i was wrong.

    If it does interest someone, i have also some personal data of pulling power at static ( measured with a balance) for a 150, a 180 fixed pitch ( 82 inches by 42), and the MP propeller 82.75 inches. the MP was pulling around 100 pounds higher , from 695 to 800 pounds, even if the temperature went a litlle higher. Cruze speed ? not finish the test, but it looks like it goes the same for the same 65%, however going 10 knots faster if you are ready to push the throttle at 14 gallons per hour. But these are not finished yet.

    We do had to tweak with the stoppers, so that the plane was not braking to 50 as hell when the prop was pushed. Now it does feel like the old fix prop when trhottle back.

    Louis

  28. #68

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    Hi Louis,
    If you don't need the exhaust, just send it back and we will send you your money back. We guarantee it 100% even if you didn't give it a try. It sounds to me that your noise level may be aerodynamic by the description of your testing. I could build you a quieter exhaust, but I am not convinced it will solve your problem... Just let me know what you want to do. Take care!

    Brian

    Brian Sutton
    Professional Pilots Inc.
    www.propilotsinc.com

  29. #69
    Skywagon185's Avatar
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    Brian,

    I'm still on the fence regarding your system. I really like what appears to be a very simple setup. What are the requirements for continued airworthiness? How does your shroud come off for inspection? Any reported issues regarding heat in that area? What is the final tube diameter of the stack? Any comments comparing the back pressure of this system to the factory system? Does the muffler have baffles?

    Sorry to inundate you with questions, just seems like there are many threads surrounding this topic and of course many opinions.

    Thanks!

  30. #70
    Louis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PPI Brian
    Hi Louis,
    If you don't need the exhaust, just send it back and we will send you your money back. We guarantee it 100% even if you didn't give it a try. It sounds to me that your noise level may be aerodynamic by the description of your testing. I could build you a quieter exhaust, but I am not convinced it will solve your problem... Just let me know what you want to do. Take care!

    Brian

    Brian Sutton
    Professional Pilots Inc.
    www.propilotsinc.com
    That is service !! But be carefull, i did not tried it,, so i know nothing about the sound of it. It just that i am just fedup with muffler and decided to go back with my old one. I feel bad about having you taking it back when i didn't even tried it. If i can sell it here, or home, half price, i will be happy. If not, we will talk again, but it won't be a full refund because it's not your fault that i, and my ears, just got fed up with mufflers before trying yours

    Thanks, no rush, and it looks very well made and designed

    Louis

  31. #71

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    Skywagon,
    Unfortunately, I am away from home for some training in Dallas, and don't have enough computer time to answer you very well. If you want, just e-mail, or pm me with a good phone number and I will try to give you a call during break...

    Louis,
    No problem. The offer will always stand. Have a Merry Christmas!

    Brian
    www.propilotsinc.com

  32. #72
    GQJO
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    Do you still have the sutton?

  33. #73

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    Everybody knows that the more money you spend on a mod the bigger the performance gain.

    Back in the '70's I had a core crack loose. We took vise grips, twisted and crumpled until we could get it out of the hole, and flew like that for a thousand hours. Only change I could detect was the confidence in knowing that the thing could no longer block the tail pipe.

    I thought all the Atlee Dodge mufflers avoid the A/D. The A/D has to specify the parts it applies to.

  34. #74
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    ...

    I thought all the Atlee Dodge mufflers avoid the A/D. The A/D has to specify the parts it applies to.
    no... it technically applies to the normal Atlee one.

  35. #75

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    Technically? It either has words in it that says it applies, or it does not apply. I have not looked it up - maybe it does say "this applies to Atlee Dodge part # whatever?"

  36. #76
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    The AD applies to the Atlee muffler with the same part number. The Hot Rod Atlee Muffler is an STC and includes documentation that the AD does not apply.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  37. #77
    mike mcs repair's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bob turner View Post
    Technically? It either has words in it that says it applies, or it does not apply. I have not looked it up - maybe it does say "this applies to Atlee Dodge part # whatever?"
    no... making a new type/style part does NOT automatically make the original AD not apply.... without requesting that it don't apply... that last-ish paragraph in all ad's thing saying you (or new part manufacturer must apply for deviation or whatever)....

    it's like that newer style univair fuel valve still has the AD applied to it, even though it a totally different beast.... which I don't agree that the AD still applies, but is what I have been told by the feds.... I always had signed it off.. DNA- part not installed....

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