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Thread: Control torque tube assembly (and bent sticks)

  1. #1
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Control torque tube assembly (and bent sticks)

    I am in the process of building my torque tube for my sticks. The Northland CD only lists p/n 40223 which is supposedly for the PA-18-90 or 125. The parts catalog list p/ns 13735 as the part for the PA-18-150.

    Does anyone have the drawing 13735? Or perhaps someone knows what the difference is between the two? I checked Cub Club and they don't list it. I checked my "other" Piper CD-ROM and nothing. Tried search here, one post mentions there is a difference in stick stubs.

    Appreciate any info or help.

  2. #2

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    The towers that the sticks attach to are shorter on the later models with the balanced control surfaces, and there are differences in the sticks also. I have never been able to find drawings for these either.

    Frank
    Thanks Eagle13 thanked for this post

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    My 1950 SC had the long pivot stub with the straight control stick and it took almost two hands in a three point flare. A friend gave me a short pivot stub and I welded bushings lower on the torque tube and reshaped it. I also bent the control stick but it wrinkles at the bend. A little lite weight bondo in the wrinkles and the bend looks perfect. I didnt change the rear stick assembly. Wow, what a differance it made. Palhal

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    Flying Miss Daisy's Avatar
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    Hi All,
    After New Holstein I have been chasing the same issue and thought it to be too heavy of a spring. Mark E at Thrustline had also told me it might be the old style Torque Tube causing the issue. I just ordered a new spring to give it a try. Palhal do you have any pictures you could post of the changes you made? Has anyone else performed this mod?
    Thanks
    John

  5. #5
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    The way I bent a control stick without wrinkles was to fill it completely with oily welding rods. After bending, I had to pull the first few rods out with a pair of vice-grips. The bend was perfect. I used a hydraulic press and wooden blocks to do the bending. ...Clyde
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Miss Daisy
    Hi All,
    After New Holstein I have been chasing the same issue and thought it to be too heavy of a spring. Mark E at Thrustline had also told me it might be the old style Torque Tube causing the issue. I just ordered a new spring to give it a try. Palhal do you have any pictures you could post of the changes you made? Has anyone else performed this mod?
    Thanks
    John
    John---I dont have any pictures of what I did but it looks no differant than a late model. Buy a late model stub and weld the same size bushings lower on the torque tube and cut off the top where the old bushings were and reshape the area you cut off and it will look exactly like a late model in every dimention. After you get the new stub you will know what to do. The worst part was taking the torque tube out of the airplane. Palhal

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    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Clyde and Susan
    The way I bent a control stick without wrinkles was to fill it completely with oily welding rods. After bending, I had to pull the first few rods out with a pair of vice-grips. The bend was perfect. I used a hydraulic press and wooden blocks to do the bending. ...Clyde
    Clyde, do you have any measurements on the bent stick? How far is the bend made, how much? No drawings that I can find for that either.

    On the torque tubes, if anyone has any measurements they could share on the "late model" torque tube that would be appreciated. I emailed Cub Doctor and he doesn't have it either.

    Thanks.

  8. #8
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Dave Foster graciously took some measurements for me on the newer style torque tube assembly. The new numbers are annotated in red. They are definately shorter.


  9. #9
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Dave Foster also had some measurements for the SC bent stick. Please reply if you have different measurements. Thanks!


  10. #10
    Clyde and Susan's Avatar
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    I'll have to measure what we did. It was bent to fit; just as much as possible and still clear the front seat when all the way forward. This was for a J-3. ...Clyde

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    Luke_theDrifter's Avatar
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    This is a great topic and big safety issue with me!

    I've had experince with the "short" and "long" stick, some straight and some bent. It seems like if you ask 5 people the same question about what stick came "stock" in the Cub (front & back, straight or bent), you'll get 5 different answers; now I'm of of the opinion that Piper put different lenght sticks in different Cubs of different year/model (PA-1, plus some were straight and some were bent.

    From experince; the short/straight stick in the front sucks, if fact I'll go so far as to say its dangerous! With the short/straight stick it feels like your hand might slip over the top while pushing forward w/ flaps on, and/or with a heavy [tail] load; even more exasperated if you don't roll the trim handle forward. Plus you don't get as much leverage with the short stick, and if feels like you're pushing down,~> instead of forward.

    My preference is the long/bent stick for the front. For the back I use a wooden broom handle (lightweight & floats), cut short enough to not hit the seat back when pushing forward; it doubles as a fuel-stick with the appropriate gallon marks, and stores nicely in the seat back pouch when not in use.
    Thanks Jonnyo thanked for this post

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    Has anyone done a mod for the J-3, moving the front seat back an inch (and possibly, tilting the front seat back aft a tad), plus using a bent stick in the back seat?

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    JimC,

    The problem is in how the seat attaches to the structure under the floor. It doesn't lend itself to moving the attachments around.

    I HAVE seen a J3 with an adjustable PA-18 front seat installed. Headroom becomes a factor dur to the spar.

    John Scott

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luke_theDrifter
    This is a great topic and big safety issue with me!

    I've had experince with the "short" and "long" stick, some straight and some bent. It seems like if you ask 5 people the same question about what stick came "stock" in the Cub (front & back, straight or bent), you'll get 5 different answers; now I'm of of the opinion that Piper put different lenght sticks in different Cubs of different year/model (PA-1, plus some were straight and some were bent.

    From experince; the short/straight stick in the front sucks, if fact I'll go so far as to say its dangerous! With the short/straight stick it feels like your hand might slip over the top while pushing forward w/ flaps on, and/or with a heavy [tail] load; even more exasperated if you don't roll the trim handle forward. Plus you don't get as much leverage with the short stick, and if feels like you're pushing down,~> instead of forward.

    My preference is the long/bent stick for the front. For the back I use a wooden broom handle (lightweight & floats), cut short enough to not hit the seat back when pushing forward; it doubles as a fuel-stick with the appropriate gallon marks, and stores nicely in the seat back pouch when not in use.
    My straight front stick was the same exact length as the bent stick in a 1976 SC. After I bent my straight stick, you couldnt tell them apart. Palhal

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    >The problem is in how the seat attaches to the structure under the floor. It doesn't lend itself to moving the attachments around. <

    That part isn't physically difficult, though getting FSDO approval might be. The easiest way to move the front seat aft is with new tubular, curved front legs that bolt up at the original attachment points and slope a bit more aft, while curving slightly in, up, and back out to clear the rear rudder pedals. Top of the new front legs weld to the seat in the original locations. Easiest way to do the rear legs is to cock and reweld them slightly out while moving the seat aft. Requires two new holes in the floorboard each side to match the relocated tube clamps, and the footplate on the leg has to be rewelded at the new angle. These changes also require that the top of the rear stick be curved aft to clear the relocated seat back.

    >I HAVE seen a J3 with an adjustable PA-18 front seat installed. Headroom becomes a factor dur to the spar. <

    I agree. Uncomfortable, and front seat comfort is the whole reason for wanting to relocate the front seat aft an inch.

  16. #16
    Clyde Barker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimC
    Has anyone done a mod for the J-3, moving the front seat back an inch (and possibly, tilting the front seat back aft a tad), plus using a bent stick in the back seat?
    I made a new front seat for my experimental cub. I made the seat deeper and higher and moved it back, and tilted the back aft also. It mounts just like the standard J3 type front seat, with no mods needed to the airframe. I kept the first seat that I made, which is just like a J3 seat, in case I ever want to change it back. I fits me just fine, but I am only 5'9". A taller pilot my not have enough head room.

    I also made a longer front stick that has two bends in it.

    This is on an experimental cub, so would not be legal on a J3, but it would work.


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    Clyde,

    Maybe I'm not seeing the picture well, but how do you get full forward stick? Looks like major interfearence with the panel.

    John Scott

  18. #18
    Clyde Barker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Longwinglover
    Clyde,

    Maybe I'm not seeing the picture well, but how do you get full forward stick? Looks like major interfearence with the panel.

    John Scott
    John,
    The stick is full forward in this photo. The stick has two bends in it so it clears the seat at full back, and clears the panel at full forward. The forward bend at the top also keeps it out of my stomach at full back stick. It is MUCH more comfortable than a standard straight stick. I just uploaded a photo from another angle (this photo was taken before painting).

    Clyde


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    Clyde, I like that front stick a lot.
    I like your front seat as well. The only minor quibble I have, is that if anything, I'd lower the front seat a bit rather than raise it.

  20. #20
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    I am working on getting a PA-18 control system installed in the J5 IAW stc SA463AL through a deviation.

    The J5 has 30 degrees of elevator movement up/down on the tcds, the PA-18 has 25 degrees up/down.

    The STC calls for the newer torque tube. Right now I have the 337 written to retain the original torque tube to comply with the TCDS of the elevator movement.

    I need some advice.....?? Should I try to use the original one same dimensions as 42792 torque tube , or the 13735?? I am concerned about the stick hitting the seat/panel if I go with the newer style.

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    Clyde, went you bent your control did you do it heated up or cold so not to get any kinks? doug

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    I will be shortening my stick stubs and torque tube towers this week to the later model length. According to my drawings the old length for the stick stub is 4 13/16" and the length of the tower pivot to the center of the torque tube is 4 11/16". That makes the rod connecting the sticks ride 1/8" below the center when the sticks are straight up. My question is about the 3 5/8" length. Is that the length of the stick stub or the torque tube tower? If it's the stick length then I think the torque tube should be 1/8" lower.

    Thanks, Mike

  23. #23
    Bugs66's Avatar
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    Mike,
    The 3 5/8 is the hole centerline to centerline dimension. So the towers and the stubs change accordingly.

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    That's good. I will shorten my stubs to 3 5/8" but shouldn't the towers be shortened to 3 1/2" instead of 3 5/8".
    Mike

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    In my Smith Kit.....

    In my Smith Kit, the front stick would contact my knee before going to the full left position. This was especially bad if you had full flaps deployed, and needed full left aileron due to a crosswind. My solution was to use a modified Champ stick, turned so the loop is slightly to the right. Works like a charm. Now you can get full left aileron when full flaps are deployed... and full right aileron too.

    Mike

  26. #26
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tracy
    That's good. I will shorten my stubs to 3 5/8" but shouldn't the towers be shortened to 3 1/2" instead of 3 5/8".
    Mike
    CTC on stubs should be the same CTC as the torque tube masts.

    Tim

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    This goes back to my original question. If the early stick stub CTC is
    4 13/16 and the CTC of the torque tube tower is 4 11/16 the torque tube tower is 1/8 shorter. If the new stick stub CTC is 3 5/8 then tower should be 3 1/2. I appreciate all the input and I'm trying to make sure I have the correct measurements. If you look at the pencil changes posted to the drawings of the stubs 4 13/16 is crossed out and 3 5/8 is shown as the new length. 4 11/16 is crossed out on the tower drawing and the same
    3 5/8 is shown. what happened to the 1/8 differance?

    Mike

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    Flying Miss Daisy's Avatar
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    Hi All,
    I dragged this up from the past and I have not read anything definitive on what was approved for paperwork or are these mods paper work wise good for a certificated airplane.
    John
    Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a well preserved body but rather to slide in sideways, well used up proclaiming "WOW What a Ride"

  29. #29
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flying Miss Daisy
    Hi All,
    I dragged this up from the past and I have not read anything definitive on what was approved for paperwork or are these mods paper work wise good for a certificated airplane.
    John
    John-

    If you go to a fsdo and try to explain this to them they will give you a deer in the headlights stare. Change out the torque tube, note it in the logbook with the part numbers and be done with it. Its a part that belongs in the airplane for xx hp and should have been done when the engine was upgraded.

    Tim

  30. #30
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Install and fly.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  31. #31
    Flying Miss Daisy's Avatar
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    Steve,
    Has you welder fabricator gone off to the oil fields if I get an old torque tube set up to convert and also fab/bend the tubing to make sticks.
    Let me know.
    John
    Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention to arrive safely in a well preserved body but rather to slide in sideways, well used up proclaiming "WOW What a Ride"

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    Can I get this picture with new number annonted in red please??

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    Talking Control torque tube

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Tracy View Post
    This goes back to my original question. If the early stick stub CTC is
    4 13/16 and the CTC of the torque tube tower is 4 11/16 the torque tube tower is 1/8 shorter. If the new stick stub CTC is 3 5/8 then tower should be 3 1/2. I appreciate all the input and I'm trying to make sure I have the correct measurements. If you look at the pencil changes posted to the drawings of the stubs 4 13/16 is crossed out and 3 5/8 is shown as the new length. 4 11/16 is crossed out on the tower drawing and the same
    3 5/8 is shown. what happened to the 1/8 differance?

    Mike
    Did anyone figure this out? I'm building a exp pa18-150 and needing to build the torque tube assembly. Any help

  34. #34
    WhiskeyMike's Avatar
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    I recall installing a PA-18 front seat in our J-3's with Atlee Dodge paperwork.

  35. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bucrepus View Post
    Did anyone figure this out? I'm building a exp pa18-150 and needing to build the torque tube assembly. Any help
    http://supercubproject.com/drawings/pdfs/A3290673.pdf

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