PA-14 Vs Wag-aero 2+2 Vs Bushmaster

Hi everyone,
I'm trying to gather information about the three types I listed in the title of this thread. I figure if anybody knows about these planes, you guys do.
My Maule is too expensive, insurance is high, and the thing burns 14gph. I can't get STC'd extended gear, and if I ding the prop it's 2 grand for an overhaul or ten grand for a new one. What I want is a simple, side by side bushplane with performance approaching that of a Super Cub. I'd just buy a Super Cub, but I need side by side, and don't want to spend $80,000. I can build, or restore if necessary.
Which of the three(14, 2+2, or Bushmaster.) do you guys think is the most bang for the buck.

Why not add C180 to the list? Seems some good deals are out there now.

You would be lucky to find a PA14 with 150 hp upgrade etc to make it a good bushplane for under 80,000. So that leaves the experimental.

Would a 180 be cheaper to run and maintain than a maule ???

S.

We burn 10.5 gph at 110 kts in a "J" model. It's bigger inside, and lots more fun to fly and land. Does that help?

Looking at kits for cubs and supercubs, it looks like 30 grand gets the big pieces, then you have all the little stuff, like cowls, baffles, mufflers, engine, tires, brakes, tailwheel, seats, torque tubes, windshield, radios, instruments, fabric, paint, bungees, rudder pedals, cables, flap handle, - did I forget anything? - for a grand total of 80 grand prior to rib-stitching.

There is a reason that Maules are so inexpensive, relatively speaking. That's an opinion!

Thanks for the replies,
I have nothing against 180's, but I want better short field performance, I don't need to carry that much, and I'm not in a hurry to get anywhere. What I'm really looking for is a side by side Super Cub.
The Bushmaster might be the cheapest way get what I want, assuming I do all the work. Is there a Super Cub wing out there with longer than standard flaps that I could put on a Bushmaster frame?
The gear is another question mark, does anyone know who makes extended gear for a Pacer?
I think I'd like to stick with an 0-320 engine, or something that easily runs on Mogas if I have to use it.
Keep the ideas coming, I really appreciate them

Google, "dakota cub super pacer". The article is worth reading. They should have the wings for you.

Univair makes the Pacer wide gear. Not extended.

speedbump - The Dakota sqare wing has larger flaps 90 1/4" to be exact and the stock 102" aileron is moved outboard to the end of the wing. They do their square wing with or without the leading edge slot. You can check out Dakota HERE. You can read about their square (extended) wing HERE. And you can read about their Super Pacer project HERE and check out some photos of it HERE.

I am aware of a new jigged extended from scratch fuselage for the Pacer/Bushmaster with tail surfaces etc that is still available for sale. Give Mike Butterfield in Yakima a call at 509-453-3412 (hangar) or 509-969-3701 (cell) and ask him about it. The really nice thing about this fuselage is that it was built extended from the git go - instead of having two feet cobbled into a stock fuselage with a bunch of gingerbread crap fabric formers - a much cleaner set up.

As for the landing gear question. I would ask Mike about that as well - I recall he had a plan to put cub style gear on the airplane that would be built from the fuselage I mentioned. When you call Mike tell him I sent you.

I used to fly with a guy with a 150hp Pacer with extended wings, stock fuselage, 29" Gar Aeros, and all the heavy stuff taken out. It was pretty impressive. He flew into and out of some really short gravel bars. That whole airplane, less engine, could be had for a song. He'd probably even help sing it.--Carey

Speedbump,
I am building the 2+2. My selection was based partly on the merits of the PA-14 that I have read about here. It seems that pilots that have ‘14’s do not seem to let them go very often and the 2+2 can be built very close to the original ‘14. Regarding the 2+2, you have many options with the plane that don’t exist with other kits. Being a Piper derivative, you can ether build as much as you like, or buy as much as you can afford. Like many other builders I have talked to, I am making some changes to the plans. I am adding flaps and the Super Cub trim system, along with using heavy duty landing gear, also from the ’18. For engine power, you can select 150 -180hp. I am planning on using a 150hp and keeping the plane as light as possible, I like the lower fuel burn and 150 hp are readily available used if you want to go that rout. Many options are also available for the wing. As you have probably read on this site, there are some great wing kits and complete wings available. I happen to have chosen the wood wing; I have been teaching woodworking for 25+ years and enjoy the process. I was able to buy all the wood for my wings direct from a mill in Washington State for less than $500, plywood was another $200 so the cost of my wings are very low. I will be scratch building my flaps and ailerons also. It all comes down to time vs money with the 2+2. I have heard of builders building the fuselage 4” wider for more room, fairly easy to do with the way the plans are set up. I think that I will be able to build the entire airframe for about $15k by doing as much scratch building as possible.
The options three options you listed are all great choices, it all comes down to what plane will best fit your intended mission, budget, and also time. I have my building process show so far shown at www.xanga.com/martyfeehan . Check it out and if you have any more questions, let me know if I can help.

Marty

I sold a project that I didnt have time to complete if you are interested let me know and I can put you in touch with the guy that owns it . It will make a great plane.

Jeff Mann said:

Thanks for the replies,
What I'm really looking for is a side by side Super Cub. I think I'd like to stick with an 0-320 engine, or something that easily runs on Mogas if I have to use it.
Keep the ideas coming, I really appreciate them

Click to expand...

How "Bush" do you really need a plane to be? What size are the strips you fly into and out of and what are the obsticals? How many people do you fly at a time and are they with you all the time or maybe just 10% of the time. If only 10%, you may just want to make two trips.

Rule of Thumb: Going from a two place (Super Cub) to a three place (PA-12, next best option), you loose about 10 to 15% of the Super Cub's short field performance. Going to a four place (Maule, C-180, etc.) you loose about 30% of the Super Cub's performance. I can tell by your comment about using an O-320, you don't really have a handle on take off performance when loaded up with four adult size passengers. Performance with an O-320 will be poor at best. Figure 65 to 75 HP per passenger for real "Bush" type performance. In my opinion if your talking real bush type flying, a Super Cub is at the top of the list and it falls off sharply from there.

That said, if you take a C-180 or Maule and get REAL good in it. You can get in and out of 90% of the places your "run of the mill" Super Cub pilot goes. The key is "real good in it". Equipment will never make up for experience. Take care. Crash

I agree with Crash, the 0320 would be marginal with 4 adults. I’m not sure if you could fit 4 adults in my 2+2 anyway, it would be very tight. For me, the 2+2 will be used for two or three people and camping gear. I wanted the side by side seating, just my preference and type of flying I will be doing. For a true 4 place, widen the 2+2 by 4” and use the 180hp. Again, as mission needs increase, so does cost to build/buy and operate. My 2+2 won't be a Super Cub, but it will fit my needs.
Marty

I know this is not cub related...

But wouldn't a 170 with a 180 or 210 conversion be just the ticket for you?

Tim

Jeff, I'm wondering why you "need" (?) a side-by-side configuration.

If tandem two place is the only reason why not to have an -18, sounds like you are okay with a two-place plane as long as it's side-by-side??!!??

......two words....."Taylorcraft".........

Cheap, faster than a Cub, put enough HP on it and it'll jump off the ground........and your co-pilot can hold your coffee for you while your hands are occupied on the throttle and yoke......assuming that's why you need side-by-side.

-14vs2+2vsBushMaster??????

I've seen some stretchPacer's/Producers that KICK BUTT!!! The same can be said for a -14 with 180HP. Seems like a 2+2 built similar to a -14 oughtta perform like one. I'm sure I've helped you, huh? DAVE

Okay, I left some stuff out of my post just to keep it from getting too long. Let me respond to some of the comments so everyone is clear what I'm looking for.
I want side by side 'cause I like to be able to look over and talk to my lovely wife.
I don't have any desire to take more than one other person and camping gear into the bush.
I want an 0-320 because they provide satisfactory performance, but run well on auto fuel.
I can both take-off and land my Maule in 250 ft, I want better short field performance, and don't care about cruise.
I want big flaps, because I can make more accurate landings, and like the improved visibility on approach.
I don't want anything aluminium, cause I'm good at fabric repair, and will go places where rock damage is common.
After reading these posts, I think an experimental Producer/Bushmaster copy would be the cheapest way to get what I want assuming I do all the work.

A -14 is prettier, and will likely maintain value better than a Producer/Bushmaster. Also, it has sticks.....and you probably can see over the nose better in the -14 than the Producer.

Negatives to the -14: slightly less room than the Producer. Has sticks which clutter the forward cabin more than a yoke.

Really, you can't go wrong with either! But don't think you can build one for much less than 80K. May actually take more $.

What a fun Discussion.

Take Care. DAVE

Thanks for all the input guys, very helpful.
I agree that the -14 is better looking, Rob H. and I saw a red and white 180hp -14 up at Merrill a couple years ago, and I thought it was the best looking bushplane I'd ever seen.
I have access to some very good aviation welders, with time on their hands. (Retired guys over in Sun City!) so I'm hoping we can do a lot of the fabrication ourselves. I hope that with the abundance of Tri-Pacer carcass's out there I can find a good deal and use as much of the plane as possible.
The real $64,000 question is with an 0-320 and a Borer prop, Dakota Cub wings, extended gear, and 31's will a Bushmaster kind of thing beat the 250ft I can do in the Maule. For what it's worth that number is with me in the plane and a couple hours of fuel.

For what its worth I owned and flew an extended wing Pacer with a 150 hp O320 for a number of years. I enjoyed it a lot. Then I bought a PA12 with a 165 radial on the front of it and really enjoy that, especially since it is now on amphibs. The sticks make it feel more special. Due to an extended engine overhaul, another story, I purchased an interim PA14 with a 150 up front. It too is economical to fly and is a great flying honest airplane that goes into the back country and does cross country as well. The sticks feel just right and it cruises faster than the local cubs on less gas. It carries 2 people and all the gear you need. If you like to snuggle with your wife in the front seat there is plenty of room. The width also makes for a nice panel layout.
So recently I decided to fulfil a life-long dream and build an aircraft from scratch. So, what is it you might ask? After careful consideration of what I want and intend to use the plane for I decided to build a PA14 replica with a round engine and wide Fairchild style landing gear. Side by side with lots of gear space and sticks. What could be finer. I thought. Progress is coming along nicely especially with all the good advice from this website and third party parts.
The moral of the story is, "If you know what you want, then go for it. If you don't know just yet then just pick one from your list until you do know. They are all good choices.

Best of luck to you,

My PA-14-160hp with me, my wife, 150 lb son #1, and 100 lb son #2 (630 lbs total people) will get off in 455' measured + / - 20'. With just myself and son #2 it gets off in about 200' with 30 gallons of fuel. It's now on floats and seems to do pretty well compared to other Cubs etc.

I also have a light early C-180 with an IO-520 in it. It will pack a larger load but is not near as easy to get in and out of tight places with as the PA-14. It it can be done, but just not as easy.

I think a 14 is great for two guys and a lot of gear or three guys and some gear or two adults with two small to medium size children.

I know what you mean, my wife also likes to sit next to me instead of looking at the back of my head. She likes the C-180 and PA-14 a lot better then the PA-18. I like the PA-18 the best. Its a pilots airplane! Take care! Crash

Without a doubt, the Super Cub is the king when it comes to bush flying. If I didn't have a family it would be my only choice.
Where can I see some photos of round engine Pipers? I'm a former DC-6 guy, so I have a soft spot for radials.
Jeff

A soft spot from oil dripping on you, or is it a soft spot that lets you think it'd be 'neatto-keen' to have one on a Cub.

Go ahead and accept little over-the-nose vis. on final if you're gonna bolt a radial on there, among other negatives. Can anyone think of a positive to having a radial on a Cub?? Seriuosly?

I've got the Peter Bower's Cub book. There're a couple photos in there.

DAVE

http://sparky.supercub.org/photopost/data/512/medium/Faust-winter.JPG
You are right! It certainly is ridiculous to have a round engine on a piper product unless you are really worried about preventing rust on your bird. This kind of machine is indeed self oiling. But, some people like chocholate and some prefer vanilla.[img]

I think by definition a soft spot sort of defies logic. It's the same reason I'd rather fly a P-47 than an F-16.
I have a few on topic questions.
Carey, I'd like to know more about the extended wing Pacer; how long were the wings, did they put Cub wings on it or extend the stock wings.
Does any body know if the Pacer and Cub wings share the same ribs?
Has anyone ever developed a motor mount for a Pacer that hinges like a Super Cub?
Thanks
Jeff

Jeff--
The wings are extended Pacer wings, probably a foot or so longer. I don't know exactly. It has drooped tips, which it seems people either love or hate. The airplane has been sitting in a hangar with the engine off for several years. I heard a few months ago that the whole thing could be had for 5 or 6K. It is a flyable airplane, less engine and prop, covered about 10 years ago. Have fun with the Pitts.--Carey

Carey, Jeff,
If you aren't interested in the Pacer Project, I would like some more information on it. Depending on year and model, it may have the potential to become a certified "Producer" or at least brought back into the Pacer world.
I looked at the Faust 12 a few years back - a very interesting aircraft - would have liked to have flown it.
Steve Bryant 907-242-1154

I know a radial PA12 on amphibs can out run a PA18-160 on wheels pretty easy.

I got several hours in Dakota Cubs Pacer and flys really good for 150 hp. I just dont know if you could build one cheaper than what you can buy a Maule for.

Does anyone know if there is an STC for putting a 160 hp in a PA14?