Longwinglover
Registered User
Charlotte, NC
acroeric,
Check your PM.
John Scott
Check your PM.
John Scott
C-90 Performance Mods
- Thread starter acroeric
- Start date
Nathan K. Hammond
Registered User
Danville, KY DVK
Get an oil filter for it. It's only $200 but by far the best money you spend on the engine! El Reno carries them, so do a bunch of others, I think they're made by F&M.
Other than that, I think you'll have a hell of an engine.
nkh
Other than that, I think you'll have a hell of an engine.
nkh
Champdriver
Registered User
Benton, Kansas
C90 Hot Rod...
Eric, Don't disregard the Fuel Injection system if you are wanting to do Aerobatics. The Bosch system can be a little finiky, but once you have it dialed in it works like a CHAMP (Little Pun)... Marc Krier had it on his clipped wing cub, and once the final setup was done worked quite well... Champdriver
Eric, Don't disregard the Fuel Injection system if you are wanting to do Aerobatics. The Bosch system can be a little finiky, but once you have it dialed in it works like a CHAMP (Little Pun)... Marc Krier had it on his clipped wing cub, and once the final setup was done worked quite well... Champdriver
JP
FOUNDER
The Big Woods of Maine
Ok, I think the problem is solved. The PA-11 Sage of Minnesota has opined and here's the deal.
The type certificate for the PA-11 calls for a Stromberg carb part number 530726, which has smaller jets in it for the 90 HP...the Marvel is approved for the C-90, but not approved for the C-90 installed in a PA-11.
Ron, your advice and observations are right on the money. Since I now know that I have the wrong carb for the application with the wrong jets I'm going to start by swapping out the Marvel for the correct Stromberg. That seems to be the logical place to start and I am fortunate to have access to the correct Stromberg.
The primer is ok. Induction seems ok. Fuel flow seems just fine via a number 5 hose from the gascolator. In flight it does crank out at 2525 indicated with the current prop and seems to have no problem at that rpm. The fuel system is the Atlee Dodge STC'd application of the PA-18 fuel system with the header tanks. The engine does run rich and black smoke has been reported trailing behind me occasionally.
I will report back in once I've done the swap and performed some test flying. I really appreciate all the advice I've gotten--you all are super.
The type certificate for the PA-11 calls for a Stromberg carb part number 530726, which has smaller jets in it for the 90 HP...the Marvel is approved for the C-90, but not approved for the C-90 installed in a PA-11.
Ron, your advice and observations are right on the money. Since I now know that I have the wrong carb for the application with the wrong jets I'm going to start by swapping out the Marvel for the correct Stromberg. That seems to be the logical place to start and I am fortunate to have access to the correct Stromberg.
The primer is ok. Induction seems ok. Fuel flow seems just fine via a number 5 hose from the gascolator. In flight it does crank out at 2525 indicated with the current prop and seems to have no problem at that rpm. The fuel system is the Atlee Dodge STC'd application of the PA-18 fuel system with the header tanks. The engine does run rich and black smoke has been reported trailing behind me occasionally.
I will report back in once I've done the swap and performed some test flying. I really appreciate all the advice I've gotten--you all are super.
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
If you really want to pick up some extra HP, put on a electronic ignition.
Did some great things for my 0-200
Did some great things for my 0-200
R. JOHNSON
Registered User
DODGEVILLE WI
Roger, what kind of electronic ignition do you have and where did you get it. Thanks, Ryan
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
http://www.lightspeedengineering.com/
I purchased it from Klaus at Light Speed. I put it on the right side and left the mag on the left. I also put the readout on it and it is really interesting to watch the ign timing vary all the way from 30 to 45. It reads the man pressure and the rpm to set the timing.
I purchased it from Klaus at Light Speed. I put it on the right side and left the mag on the left. I also put the readout on it and it is really interesting to watch the ign timing vary all the way from 30 to 45. It reads the man pressure and the rpm to set the timing.
redrooster
Registered User
western Washington
So while the electronic ignition on the RH side is varying from 30 to 45, the mag on the LH side is just firing at 30 (?) every time? I guess with no mixture left to ignite that doens't hurt anything.
Good thinking to keep the one mag. A guy at my airport is building a GlasStar TD with an O-360. It has double electronic ignitions, and so it has two complete and independent electrical systems for safety just in case one fails. Also has a big radio stack, digital FADEC, and a whole buncha bells, whistles, flashing lights,buzzers, etc. Not exactly my cuppa tea but he's a retired airline guy so maybe he's used to all that Billy Whizbang stuff....
Rooster
Good thinking to keep the one mag. A guy at my airport is building a GlasStar TD with an O-360. It has double electronic ignitions, and so it has two complete and independent electrical systems for safety just in case one fails. Also has a big radio stack, digital FADEC, and a whole buncha bells, whistles, flashing lights,buzzers, etc. Not exactly my cuppa tea but he's a retired airline guy so maybe he's used to all that Billy Whizbang stuff....
Rooster
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
I get about a 200 rpm drop when I switch to the mag on runup. Sure is a smooth running engine, but the loudest one I have ever rode behind.
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
No more than normal mech noise. The main noise is the four into 1 exhause on a non standard engine.
I started with a standard 0-200 engine. I purchased new continental cylinders and sent them to Light Speed Engineering in Santa Paula Ca. Klaus Savier of Light Speed then installed his forged pistons with a 9.4/1 compression ratio. Did a ring and piston fit. the top clearance on the pistons was accomplished by grinding the combustion chamber on some of the cylinders. The intake and exhaust ports were then ported. The valves were then 3 angle cut on all seats and valve faces. The connecting rod were shot peened and balanced and line-bored to fit the larger wrist-pins and balanced. I then installed a electronic ignition by Klaus in place of the right mag.
The plane is made to standard PA11 plans except for the electric trim, seats, and a full panel. Plus a few other mods.
There are a few pictures of the construction on www.pmmi-inc.com/planes.html.
Don at Sensenich made a 72/50 wood prop for cruse and a 80/20 wood prop for floats. The cruse prop gives me a top speed of around 115 mph and the float prop will curse at about 75 mph. The wings were purchased from Dakota Cub and mounted to the plane using Super Cub Struts. Since I did not install a jack screw for trim, I put double tail brace wires on the tail. Other than that it was std construction. I did use some ultralight fabric to install a fishing rod carrier which you can see in the pictures.
The 4 into 1 exhaust was made for me by Chris Stepp at Aircraft Exhaust Technologies. He has some pictures of it on his web site at http://www.aircraftexhaust.net/. He really did a nice job and it gave me about a 100 rpm adder. I also installed Micro VG's on the plane which lowered the stall by a full 20%.
I started with a standard 0-200 engine. I purchased new continental cylinders and sent them to Light Speed Engineering in Santa Paula Ca. Klaus Savier of Light Speed then installed his forged pistons with a 9.4/1 compression ratio. Did a ring and piston fit. the top clearance on the pistons was accomplished by grinding the combustion chamber on some of the cylinders. The intake and exhaust ports were then ported. The valves were then 3 angle cut on all seats and valve faces. The connecting rod were shot peened and balanced and line-bored to fit the larger wrist-pins and balanced. I then installed a electronic ignition by Klaus in place of the right mag.
The plane is made to standard PA11 plans except for the electric trim, seats, and a full panel. Plus a few other mods.
There are a few pictures of the construction on www.pmmi-inc.com/planes.html.
Don at Sensenich made a 72/50 wood prop for cruse and a 80/20 wood prop for floats. The cruse prop gives me a top speed of around 115 mph and the float prop will curse at about 75 mph. The wings were purchased from Dakota Cub and mounted to the plane using Super Cub Struts. Since I did not install a jack screw for trim, I put double tail brace wires on the tail. Other than that it was std construction. I did use some ultralight fabric to install a fishing rod carrier which you can see in the pictures.
The 4 into 1 exhaust was made for me by Chris Stepp at Aircraft Exhaust Technologies. He has some pictures of it on his web site at http://www.aircraftexhaust.net/. He really did a nice job and it gave me about a 100 rpm adder. I also installed Micro VG's on the plane which lowered the stall by a full 20%.
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
Made a little typo. The float prop is a 80/27.
R. JOHNSON
Registered User
DODGEVILLE WI
Roger, do you feel that the increased performance with the 4 to 1 over the stock system is worth the money if you had to do it over? Also if you had to pick either the elect. ignition or the exhaust what would you go with? Also how much horse power is your engine putting out? Thanks in advance for your time, Ryan.
EDIT: I think you answered my exhaust question when I seen in another post you've had three sets. I have another question though, have you thought about trying the J-3 mount for the zero degree thrust angle? Thanks, Ryan.
EDIT: I think you answered my exhaust question when I seen in another post you've had three sets. I have another question though, have you thought about trying the J-3 mount for the zero degree thrust angle? Thanks, Ryan.
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
The four into one gave me the most boost for the buck. Picked up 100+ rpm when I put it on. I would not go to the 0 thrust. Have tried it and picked up very little. Like the added performance getting off the water with the 4 deg of look down. If I want to go fast, I get in the 172 with my wife. She won't let me fly, but she lets me ride.
The homebuilts are really nice, because you don't have to guess what works the best, just go try it. By the way, my PA11 can keep up with the 172 but I have it looking at the ground at that speed. I think I am putting out about 120 to 125 hp, but my fish that I caught last summer get bigger when I get back to Texas.
The homebuilts are really nice, because you don't have to guess what works the best, just go try it. By the way, my PA11 can keep up with the 172 but I have it looking at the ground at that speed. I think I am putting out about 120 to 125 hp, but my fish that I caught last summer get bigger when I get back to Texas.
Cub junkie
Registered User
My Moms basement
Roger,Do you like the trim you have opposed to the jack screw system? Were you trying to eliminate some of the headaches associated with maintaining a jack screw system? Kevin
acroeric
SPONSOR
Burlington, NC
C90
Roger- I have been looking at the 4 into 1 exhaust as well. I currently use a Luscombe 2 into 1 setup off an 8E. It works well and is also loud (but I like that). I wonder If I would get any gain over this setup? It is very free flowing.
Any issues with Claus' pistons? I have a set of C85 pistons moly coated that I was planning to use but the 9.5 to 1 sure sounds like it would be a huge gain. The C85 trick probably adds 5-8 hp but only adds a little to the compression ratio.
How much time is on your engine? Any problems so far? You have done all the mods I have been wanting to try-
Eric
Roger- I have been looking at the 4 into 1 exhaust as well. I currently use a Luscombe 2 into 1 setup off an 8E. It works well and is also loud (but I like that). I wonder If I would get any gain over this setup? It is very free flowing.
Any issues with Claus' pistons? I have a set of C85 pistons moly coated that I was planning to use but the 9.5 to 1 sure sounds like it would be a huge gain. The C85 trick probably adds 5-8 hp but only adds a little to the compression ratio.
How much time is on your engine? Any problems so far? You have done all the mods I have been wanting to try-
Eric
Roger Peterson
Registered User
Sweeny, Texas
I used the electric trim just so I could get the control on the stick and have a real fine trim control. The only trouble with my system is that the trim tab is about 4 times as large as it needs to be but don't want to rebuild the elevator.
I think the 4 into 1 collectors that Chris builds reall pull a vacuum on the remaining 3 exhaust tubes and help cut down on back pressure.
I have had no problems with the engine and the pistons seem to work fine. I only have about 125 hr on the engine. Flew it to Canada and back and on floats for the summer. I am getting good oil analysis back but my oil usage is only about 1 qt in 25. Would like it to use a little more oil. The oil does not turn black like my other planes. Will know more in a few years but for now it is really a smooth engine without any vibrations at any speed.
About the only change I would make is to the Float plane prop. Should be a 80/32. I turn about 3,000 wide open and 2850 on lift off.
I think the 4 into 1 collectors that Chris builds reall pull a vacuum on the remaining 3 exhaust tubes and help cut down on back pressure.
I have had no problems with the engine and the pistons seem to work fine. I only have about 125 hr on the engine. Flew it to Canada and back and on floats for the summer. I am getting good oil analysis back but my oil usage is only about 1 qt in 25. Would like it to use a little more oil. The oil does not turn black like my other planes. Will know more in a few years but for now it is really a smooth engine without any vibrations at any speed.
About the only change I would make is to the Float plane prop. Should be a 80/32. I turn about 3,000 wide open and 2850 on lift off.
redrooster
Registered User
western Washington
Someone posted this link on another discussion site- it's from the Flybaby website and has some good poop on the small Continentals.
www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm
Rooster
www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm
Rooster
>C85 pistons are flat topped, and are about 1/8" taller than O-200 (pin to top). Normal compression is about 6-1 with O200 pistons,
7.0:1
> running C85's takes it to about 7/7.5-1?....sorry I don't know the exact number.
8.7:1
? LyCon's are a domed top piston that run up to about 10-1 and take special rings.
Lycon flat-top 9.5:1 ----- can't get 10's for the O-200. I'm running 9.5:1 Lycons in an O-200 that I'm building up now.
Lycon pistons have 3 rings vs. 4 rings for the C-85 pistons.
Gapless rings are made by Total Seal to fit about anything imaginable.
7.0:1
> running C85's takes it to about 7/7.5-1?....sorry I don't know the exact number.
8.7:1
? LyCon's are a domed top piston that run up to about 10-1 and take special rings.
Lycon flat-top 9.5:1 ----- can't get 10's for the O-200. I'm running 9.5:1 Lycons in an O-200 that I'm building up now.
Lycon pistons have 3 rings vs. 4 rings for the C-85 pistons.
Gapless rings are made by Total Seal to fit about anything imaginable.
Fireball, stumble on throttleup and quitting at low rpm during taxi are both often a result of running an A-65 spider on the C-85 and C-90. About a fourth of C-85's seem to be using 65 spiders. You can tell a 65 spider by the abrupt external neckdown in the throat. The 85, 90, and O-200 spiders have a uniform diameter throat. If you have a C-85 spider, polish it.
The cheapest solution is to throttle up more slowly, take about 2 seconds to shove the throttle in.
The cheapest solution is to throttle up more slowly, take about 2 seconds to shove the throttle in.
acroeric
SPONSOR
Burlington, NC
Vaccum pump gear? Leave it out?
I am assembling my C90-12F engine and am considering leaving the vacuum pump gear and housing out. In looking at the oil flow I think as long as I have a well fitting blank off plate it should work fine- Anyone know of a reason I should not do this? I am sure the engine would pick up a little hp without the friction of the gear plus I loose a pound or two off the engine.
I am assembling my C90-12F engine and am considering leaving the vacuum pump gear and housing out. In looking at the oil flow I think as long as I have a well fitting blank off plate it should work fine- Anyone know of a reason I should not do this? I am sure the engine would pick up a little hp without the friction of the gear plus I loose a pound or two off the engine.
Quoted -- "Normal compression is about 6-1 with O200 pistons, running C85's takes it to about 7/7.5-1?....sorry I don't know the exact number".
Normal compression for C90/O-200 is 7.00:1
C85 pistons with C90/O-200 crank gives 8.68:1
Klaus Saviar pistons 9.4:1
NFS pistons 9.5:1
9.5 pistons with no changes in timing or jetting will give a 9.76% increase in power and torque.
Normal compression for C90/O-200 is 7.00:1
C85 pistons with C90/O-200 crank gives 8.68:1
Klaus Saviar pistons 9.4:1
NFS pistons 9.5:1
9.5 pistons with no changes in timing or jetting will give a 9.76% increase in power and torque.
why a A65 spider? there a lot smaller throat then the c-90 ?
hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
There's a lot of info on Continental 4-bangers -- what fits what, performance mods, etc-- on this webpage:
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm
http://www.bowersflybaby.com/tech/fenton.htm
A65 spider has an external and internal stepdown in the throat that the 85/90/O-200 spider doesn't have. Opening the 65 spider up for 'improved' flow will cause it to crack at the stepdown due to over thinning the throat wall.
Read the two paragraphs under 'Cam Design Changes' on Page 1 of SB M49-17 and note that Continental explicitly says that the 24° cam gives more power and better acceleration than the 35° 788 cam.
Read the two paragraphs under 'Cam Design Changes' on Page 1 of SB M49-17 and note that Continental explicitly says that the 24° cam gives more power and better acceleration than the 35° 788 cam.
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As an aside, the stock O-200 cam gives more power and torque than either of the C90 cams up to a density altitude of about 9400-10,000 feet. At sea level, according to Continental, anytime the O-200 is between 2150 rpm and about 2900 rpm, it is producing more torque than the peak torque of the C90.
Farmboy
MEMBER
Middlebury, VT
Jim,
Would you say that Continental's statement on the -788 cam is based on the stock engine and exhaust, so depending on what other mods one may install, the -788 cam may well provide a benefit? Most engines benefit from breathing easier, hence exhaust mods are typically first, and then intake mods may follow.
