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Thread: Where to mount master and starter solenoid

  1. #1
    bobnall's Avatar
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    Where to mount master and starter solenoid

    Hi all,

    I'm installing the Dan's underseat battery and there are no instruction as to how/where to mount the master and starter solenoids. I know lots of these have been installed so rather than reinvent the wheel, thought I ask how you've done it. Pix would be nice.

    My initial thought is to build another box and mount them under the battery, but thought I'd check it out with those of you have already done it.

    Thanks.

    -Bob

  2. #2
    flybynite's Avatar
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    I thought I had seen a pic on the old photos...http://supercub.org/gallery/view_pho...percubs&id=acn

    Cheers

    Wayne

  3. #3
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Mount them on the front flange of the box.

    However, your idea to mount them on the bottom side ofthe box might be better, especially if you intend to use one of Steve's aircraft vented brake boosters with the reservoir.

    Good Luck. DAVE

  4. #4
    Steve's Aircraft (Brian)'s Avatar
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    This is how one of our cutomers with a Dan's battery mounted his with our brake boosters in it.



    You can see the tops of the resivoirs in the pic.

    Brian

  5. #5
    Lawn Dart's Avatar
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    Adel clamped mine to the diagonal on the seat frame.



  6. #6
    S2D's Avatar
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    Great Spot!! I shoulda thought of that!!!!

  7. #7
    bobnall's Avatar
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    As always, the replies and pics are much appreciated and very helpful, but I also respond here with some embarrassment because, being my usual dumbass self, I did not thoroughly READ the directions....I quickly scanned them and therefore missed that part of the instruction that indicated where the solenoids should be mounted.

    Great group that you are, no one rubbed my nose in it. In fact, the responses and pics gave me some more ideas on how to do it, so even tho I pulled the trigger on asking the question too quickly I come away much more informed.

    So again, a big hearty THANKS for the help.

    -Bob

  8. #8
    Lawn Dart's Avatar
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    Bob, where does Dan say that you should mount them?
    Atlee didn't help at all in this area. It's totally up to the installer.

    S2D
    I'm not sure that I'm following what you're saying. Can you rephrase?

  9. #9
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lawn Dart
    Bob, where does Dan say that you should mount them?
    Atlee didn't help at all in this area. It's totally up to the installer.

    S2D
    I'm not sure that I'm following what you're saying. Can you rephrase?
    What was I thinking, must have been a Brain Hiccup

  10. #10
    S2D's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bobnall
    As always, the replies and pics are much appreciated and very helpful, but I also respond here with some embarrassment because, being my usual dumbass self, I did not thoroughly READ the directions....I quickly scanned them and therefore missed that part of the instruction that indicated where the solenoids should be mounted.

    Great group that you are, no one rubbed my nose in it. In fact, the responses and pics gave me some more ideas on how to do it, so even tho I pulled the trigger on asking the question too quickly I come away much more informed.

    So again, a big hearty THANKS for the help.

    -Bob
    Bob-- Your Mechanic stopped by here last summer draggin a Curtis Jenny with him. Tell him Hi for me. ( he talked me out of a pair of original super cub wheels & tires)
    Brian

  11. #11
    Lawn Dart's Avatar
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    Brian, thanks for chiming in again. I understand what you are saying now.

    When doing this mod, I thought for way too many hours about how to best install the solenoid.
    After much consideration, my goals were:
    1. Retain clear access to the master cylinders. I have a leaky brake and have to top off the reservoir more often then I want to admit to. I wanted to be able to get a 5/8 wrench in there and a bottle of brake fluid to top them off.
    2. Protect them as best as I can during normal operations.

    I thought about mounting to the front of the tray, but concluded that would impede my access to the master cylinders. I thought about mounting to the rear of the tray but concluded that I had to trust that my passenger would never accidentally interrupt the flow of electrons by tearing off the wires with their bunny boots when entering and exiting (I did see your comment about installing a shield) or that I would impede on their already crowed space, or that putting them back there would interfere with the mounting of the parking brake rods (this was the biggie).

    I also considered the crashworthiness of the entire installation and concluded that mounting a live battery of any sort under a seat that is well known to fold up on impact was just plain stupid. So I went for it.

    Adel clamping it to the diagonal was the best option for me [read the words, for me]

    Now I want to piss in the punchbowl some more by saying that I also considered installing the ground clamp as was shown in the other Brian’s post (to the seat frame).

    If you follow the electrical path from the seat frame to the airframe, you will find that the round seat frame tubing is held in place by 4 pairs of flat tabs that are welded onto the airframe and are joined by through bolts.
    The electrical path is reliant on the very small interface between the flat airframe tabs and the round thin walled tubing of the seat frame. If the connecting bolts are over tightened, they will collapse the seat frame tubes and therefore must have a light torque. This is not a reliable ground source.
    I would recommend extending the ground to a solid piece of the airframe tubing.

    Furthermore, we [read, I too] are guilty of violating one of the forbidden evils of AC43.13. We drilled holes through the front of the seat frame.

  12. #12
    bobnall's Avatar
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    Cavy...On the second page of the instructions it's indicated that the solenoids should be mounted to the front of the seat frame. Dan says that either the starter solenoid and fuse block can be mounted there or if not a fuse block then a master solenoid.

    With the other pics and ideas presented, I'm not sure how I'll do it yet, but still have time to figure it out.

    S2D...so you got to meet Tom, eh? Wish I had 1% of his skills and knowledge. I'll tell him you said Hello...in fact I talked to him today. He was scraping varnish off the spars of the Jenny. Said he would take me for a ride in it when it's done.

    Again, thanks to all.

    -Bob

  13. #13
    PA12driver's Avatar
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    Bob,

    You are way to gracious to this crowd Guess I have been away to long!! Well seing I am planeless and gathering knowledge, ideas and parts and pieces for my next project (experimental) I will be kind! (really I agree, what a great bunch of fellow pilots and mechanics! Say Hi to Tom for me and tell him I will come and harass him real soon!

    As for my .02 worth, I would make priority one the rigidity of the installation and for sure move the Ground from the Seat to the Fuselage tubing (there was a reason Piper did that on the original cub) Secondly I wouldn' block clear access to the reservoir. Nothing screws up a cub more then freaking hydaulic oil on the fabric under the floor boards cause you were only guessing where the filler was in the rain, snow, sleet, hail and other such niceties? The photos Brian included look pretty sanitary from what I remember of the kit?

    Take care and hope to hook up real soon,

    Tim

  14. #14
    kase's Avatar
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    I got a field approval in 1995 to put the battery under the front seat. The tray is welded in, not clamped in like the STC. Never had any problems filling the North River boosters. With the Dakota Cub Master Cylinders I have now it looks like I would only need to add fluid every 3 years or so. We welded a tab on the front seat for the ground. I would rather have my battery under the seat in a crash than the original location. Saw one come thru the headliner in a crash and hit the pilot when it broke loose.

  15. #15
    Erik's Avatar
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    I'll be installing my Atlee Dodge underseat battery this weekend. Thanks for all the great input on location of the solenoids. I didn't even realize the issue, but now I'm way ahead of the game in terms of having that part thought through.

    Question: Can anyone tell me what cable size I have in my 1981 PA-18-150? I wanted to buy the new terminal ends, but the parts guy said it might be a couple of different sizes. I'd like to be prepared so I don't have to run back to the store when I'm in the middle of the project. I need six new terminal ends right? What size?

    Thanks, Erik

  16. #16
    Erik's Avatar
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    Anyone, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

  17. #17
    Jon B.'s Avatar
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    Erik:

    Isn't there a stamped, repeating number on the cable? The part number and cable gauge should be on it. On the wire I've bought, there's a forward slant (/) followed by the gauge number.

    Mine (which in no way helps *you*) is 2 gauge. I bought crimp-on ends but soldered them on instead.

    Jon B.

  18. #18
    Erik's Avatar
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    Thanks Jon B.!

  19. #19
    sharp's Avatar
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    It's the other stuff that is a pain. The primary wire to the master switch being glued or wrapped to the fuselage, the battery box attache points being out of reach under the extended baggage, unable to do everything through the wing root and having to disconnect the fuel line pull the interior panel. I think this variable from cub to cub on how they were assembled.

  20. #20

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    Erik,

    I would stay away from soldering, especially as this is a hi ampere connections. Borrow a correct crimp tool for the terminals.

    My Cub is a 1975 model and had the aluminum cable to the starter. I replaced it years ago with a #2 copper cable. Since you are installing the under seat battery, and by doing so cutting the cable length in half, I think you could get away with #4. Like someone else pointed out, ensure you have a solid airframe ground.

    Good luck,

    Vidir

  21. #21
    Lawn Dart's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sharp
    It's the other stuff that is a pain.
    DITO what Sharp said. It’s all the little things that will challenge you.

    I also have #2 Bogert battery cables and I believe I ran #8 for the primary circuit.
    Each installation is going to be a little different. For instance, I mounted a 35 amp Klixon breaker to the front of the seat frame thus eliminating the stock double fuse system.

    I went thru each of the parts and figured out what wires and terminals I needed and then ordered them from these guys plus a few extra of each size, as well as a few different sizes.
    There is no ‘store’ near me so I had to get all my ducks in one order.

    Pulling the interior panels, figuring out where to route the cables and finding all those little hidden fubar’ will make the beer taste that much sweeter by the end of the day.

  22. #22
    T.J.'s Avatar
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    Vidir:
    Why do you prefer crimping to soldering?

  23. #23

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    TJ,

    Basically, there are more unknowns in soldering versus crimping.

    For a good soldering joint you need trained hands and eyes with experience.

    If the correct crimping tool ( ratchet type) is used on the terminal, the connection will be perfect without particular skill.

    I know of a power company with standardized workmanship in accordance with ISO 900X, where soldering is prohibited for above reasons.


    ... and soldering adds unneccessary weight

  24. #24
    Erik's Avatar
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    I'll buy that argument.

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