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What About Ethanol?

I read that article Frank. Also there are transportation costs. Can't put ethanol in a pipeline. How do they get 190 hp out of a fuel with less btu's?
 
Can you say "MAGIC" Steve. ;)

With regard to water use. There are very few public records for water use at ethanol plants with the Minnesota DNR being the exception. Their records indicate that MN ethanol plants use from 3.8 to 6 gallons of water to produce a gallon of ethanol. The 44 gallons mentioned for oil that Marty quotes is Left Coast BS. I've seen what I would consider verifiable numbers on oil refineries that pencil out to as low as .5 gallon of water use per gallon. At Marty's 44 gallons there would be some mighty large storage tanks required at most oil refineries to meet that demand.
 
Frank T Wrote
180Marty, I'm interested in what kind of dividend checks are you getting at this point in time?
I haven't seen the 4th quarter results from the good plant yet but have been told I'll report taxable income of 200% this fiscal year that ended last Sept. 30. I won't see much of that since the plant expanded to 92 million gals a year from 52 mil this summer/fall and proceeds will go to pay down debt. I'll get about 1/3 to pay income taxes. Last year was 200% also and I received 65% of what I reported as income. The other coal fired plant had to redesign the boiler last Jan. because of problems so will only report 25 or 30% return this year. It's amazing how different the two plants located about 90 miles apart did. I did recirculate some of the money by installing a $5500 Trane high efficiency natural gas/heatpump furnace last week. I'll probably buy some airplane stuff also.
Marty
 
Steve Pierce wrote
How do they get 190 hp out of a fuel with less btu's?
It's called higher compression ratio---- the tighter the air/fuel is packed-the bigger the boom.
 
Frank T if you read the link you will see where Delta T, an ethanol plant designer has the water down to 1 1/2 gals per gal. of ethanol in future construction. I think significant amounts of water and energy will be used to extract oil from the oil sands in northern Alberta.

http://domesticfuel.com/index.php?s=delta+t
 
Marty...what kind of electric rates there? I looked at a dual-fuel setup and just could not make it pencil out at my rates, especially when I consider the extra wear on the heat pump. My crossover point was also quite high (35*) because of the btu's I need vs what the unit could put out.

I upgraded from an older Trane to a Rheem Modulating natural gas setup and really like the results. I hope you got the Trane with an ECM blower motor, it will save you significantly on electric.
 
Marty, What is the difference in hp running 100LL vs Ethanol? I understand about upping compression ratios but wonder the difference in power of the two fuels.
 
I just read the WSJ article. It seems it is the lobbyist for the oil companies that are the most steamed.

As many point out it's a free market system here. I would much rather pay money to a farmer from Iowa than a Saudi prince. To me that's national security. If Iraq didn't have a ton of oil we would have never taken our "War on Terror" there.

Frank you say a local TV station did a mileage test... I'd like to read about this test. What station did it? And asking someone what their dividends are?? What's up with that??

There's a world squeeze for every drop of petroleum. You're paying almost $5 a gallon for 100LL (maybe more). Most work airplanes are going turbine, and diesel engines are available right now. With E85 $2.19 a gallon maybe it's time we who fly Lycoming's and Continental's start warming to the idea this fuel is our future.
 
Frank T, Don't know too much about the furnace except the guy that installed it has one similar. It has variable fan and hi/lo burner and heatpump kicks in at 30 degrees. Electricity is 8.2 cents KWH.
Steve, The way I understand it on increased HP--- you can only get so much stuff crammed into a combustion chamber at a given pressure. Air is 78% nitrogen and 21% oxygen. Gasoline is carbon and hydrogen. Ethanol is 35% oxygen and 65% carbon and hydrogen. Carbon ,Hydrogen, and Oxygen are what combusts and the Nitrogen is just in the way so to speak. You can stuff more fuel and oxygen via ethanol into the chamber than 100LL.
Marty
 
Cabin

KARE11 did the report. The ethanol lobbies went nuts over it.

If you think that the oil we get here in the midwest comes from Saudi you need to do additional research. Most of what we use here comes from Canada.

One reason that oil prices are so high right now is that OIL worldwide is traded in the US dollar and the dollar is extremely low. Not to mention worldwide demand

When I asked about Marty about his dividend I was interested to know if they were still making money at todays corn and ethanol prices.

When you read the WSJ article you must have missed the part about the food lobbies, they are much more vocal than the oil lobby.

Personally I don't think using a food source for fuel is ever wise, there are better options out there.
 
Yep, with the increased popularity of ethanol fuel, we're starving the poor mexicans. They can no longer afford the corn for their tortillas. Its gotta be true, I heard it on the TV. :angel:
 
Steve Pierce said:
I read that article Frank. Also there are transportation costs. Can't put ethanol in a pipeline. How do they get 190 hp out of a fuel with less btu's?

I didn't read the article, so I don't know exactly what engine they were talking about, but in general, no you can't get more power by running on ethanol. If you put ethanol in an engine you get less power and greater fuel consumption that gasoline.

What you "can" do though is modify the engine, which is a whole different story. Ethanol tends to increase octane rating so the fuel is more resistant to detonation. So you if you modify the engine to have a higher compression ratio you can get more power, as all else being equal (displacement RPM, etc) higher compression gives you higher power.

However, the exact same thing can be said about 100LL; if you took an engine and modified it to a greater compression than you could use with 90 octane mogas and ran it on 100LL, you'd get more power also.
 
cabinflyer said:
As many point out it's a free market system here. I would much rather pay money to a farmer from Iowa than a Saudi prince. To me that's national security.

Yeah, that's a nice thought, But if you buy a gallon of ethanol from "an Iowa farmer" but he's bought a gallon and a half of diesel fuel for his tractor from that "Saudi prince" in order to produce that gallon of ethanol, than what have you really gained? If you want to minimize what you're paying to that "Saudi prince", wouldn't you be paying him *less* if you just bought a gallon of his diesel fuel from him to run your car, instead of buying a gallon of a poorer fuel, which resulted in the "Saudi prince" selling 50% *more* fuel to a us customer?


Of course, it's not quite that simple, but it does illustrate the principle here. Production of ethanol is very energy intensive. Some studies which have audited the process show that *more* energy is used to make a gallon of ethanol that you actually get from a gallon of ethanol. Other studies (by the ethanol industry) show that there's not more energy used but slightly less. That's the problem, even the most optimistic studies done by the folks who are behind ethanol at best show that you get only slightly more energy out of a gallon of ethanol that you used up making it. As a *source* of energy, ethanol falls pretty much flat on it's face. at best it's merely a conversion of other forms of energy into a liquid form. Ethanol is pretty much a gigantic Ponzi Scheme, energy-wise


cabinflyer said:
And asking someone what their dividends are?? What's up with that??

I would imagine that it's an indirect way of pointing out that Marty has some sort of significant financial interest in the ethanol industry. That is useful and legitimate information to be in possession of when considering his relentless cheerleading of ethanol.

cabinflyer said:
There's a world squeeze for every drop of petroleum.

Right, and using 1 million BTU of petroleum to make 900,000* btu of ethanol actually makes the situation *worse* not better

*those aren't the actual numbers, the actual numbers are a matter of some controversy. But I picked nice round numbers to illustrate the concept.
 
aalexander
We know raising the compression ratio increases power but assuming the same high CR, ethanol will beat 100LL. You'd have to inject some pure oxygen into the intake manifold to get 100LL to equal ethanol. I look at some E85 websites and guys are getting more power out of engines on the dyno using E85 vs. special racing gasoline. This includes naturally aspirated,supercharged, nitrous oxide. They are programming the computer or jetting the carburetor to get proper fuel flows for each fuel.
 
AAlex,

My point (that you missed) is the days of 100LL are limited. If you don't agree, that's your right. There's not much I can do for you.

The only reason the big oil companies are making 100LL is we are willing to out bid somebody else for the crude that makes it. Sooner than later the world is going to want that gallon of crude that makes Av gas. I don't think Exxon is saying "Hey these super cub fellows are really nice folks. Maybe we should give them a break".

So if you want to stay in the fuel fight the big Q is what are you willing to pay? $10 maybe $12 a gallon in the lower 48 and twice that in AK?

Thankfully, Marty and a few others are at least thinking of other options. I'm putting my money on them! 8)
Steve
 
One thing I find interesting and telling is that I know several people that bought GM E85 Suburbans and got a debit card with $1000 credit on it to purchase E85. As soon as the $1000 was used up their E85 use stopped.
 
OK, I am a hill farmer and not a scientist. Making Ethanol sounds much more complicated on a large scale than it does in my back 40. I presently produce VT maple syrup on a wood fired arch. To make ethanol you don't have to heat the mash very high at all, I believe somewhere around 125 degrees. Aside from STC's and the feds not collecting any taxes, why shouldn't I start making my own "fuel" just like grandpa used to sell? It just seems so simple on a small scale when I have the wood, corn (or whatever) and airplane all with in 1/2 mile of each other.

PS. No tractors, just draft horses!
 
Seems ashamed Gerry, that we have to denature the stuff. Can you imagine how much more interesting fly-ins would be.

Seriously though. Why can't I buy/make a rig and easily make enough juice to solve my fuel consumption problem. Well?[/u]
 
BlackFly, I like you attitude. :D There are plans for stills that can make 190 proof on the internet. Then buy some zeolite 3A(three angstrom pores) to get the last 5% water out. Get yourself some of the same anti-oxidant that the big plants add to stop corrosion and your good to go. Denaturing with gasoline is optional. :lol:
Marty P.S. 190 proof would run fine as long as you don't mix gasoline but I have no experience with the corrosion aspect of that.
 
What about ethanol

Maybe some day we will all fly our planes on 85% ethanol and love it ! But as for now running 10% ethanol is going to get some one killed.
Here is how it can get you{ I said can get you, not always get you}
10% ethanol and 90% gas will hold 4 table spoons of water per gal., sump your tanks till you are blue in the face and you will never get any water out, it could be in there but you have no way to known it with a every day pre flight. It makes not difference where you got the water, your home town store, your old fuel caps or friendly FBO.
So anyway you can be fat dum and happy with 4 table spoons per Gal. in 10% ethanol!! BUT add the 5th table spoon or just cool the fuel fast, and "ALL 5 table spoons plus some ethanol go to the lowest point . { your gasolator} lets say you have 30 gal of fuel , so 30 gal. X 5 table spoons per is 150 table spoons !!!
Will your Gasolater hold that ?
If you thank the NTSB is going to do a good job of finding this after the crash then you have not read many of their reports on small planes! It will read"engine stop for unkown reasons, fuel in tank"
If you want to see for your self how the phase separation works then do the test that Anticub told you about , only add the water a small bit at a time!!
know the facts and fly safe or deny them and take your chances, They are still the facts.
Fly safe Doug
 
brownbear, Here's another simple test. Take the fuel you sump and go put it in the freezer. If you don't have phase separation then it shouldn't happen in the air either.
Marty
 
Would adding "Heat" (that little red bottle you buy at the gas station) help absorb the water? I thought that "Heat" is isopropyl
 
Jerry, This from the Back Country Pilot website thread "just a little ethanol". Ethanol and Heet do the same thing so folks that use 10% ethanol in their car never have to add Heet since we never get water accumulation. Here is an interesting post.


Jr.CubBuilder
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:33 pm
Reply with quote

The Isopropyl will help keep the water in solution. It will bind with the water molecules keeping it in suspension, helps keep it from freezing also.

I once had a big glob of water that had collected as previous posts had described in the tank of my motorcycle. I could see it down there, but didn't notice it till it started lurping into the float bowls of the carbs on a x-country. Draining the gas wouldn't help because the water bubble was actually a bit below the level of where the petcock picked up the gas. The water had eventually built up a big enough bubble on the bottom of the tank that some would get sucked down the petcock now and then. It had gotten enough into the carb float bowls to finally kill the motor.

The solution was to drain the float bowls on the side of the road, ride to the nearest town, bought some rubbing alcohol that was mostly isopropyl and then kept adding about half a cup every tank of gas till we got home. After about three tanks I couldn't see the water bubble anymore.

Not the kind of backyard physics I want to mess around with when an airplane is involved, but it was interesting to actually see the water bubble disappear.

Having observed that firsthand I would be a little hesitant to put Heet or Isopropyl in the tanks of my plane. I would prefer the water settle out and get removed at the sump.
 
What about Ethanol

180Marty : You said you went to the drug store and bought " Rubbing Alcohol " and it cured your problem in your bike with the water in your tank. You must be really lucky, because " Rubbing Alcohol " is about 50% water !! I had a Toyota Pickup that had a little ice in the tank on a really cold day { - 30* F}. Being I was a cheap-skate and didn't want to pay for some good iso-propol deicer when I could buy a 40 oz. bottle of rubbing alcohol for less money, I bought the rubbing alcohol and poured a large amount in my gas tank. It froze the fuel line up right now !! It was so bad that I had to put the truck in a heated garage for two days to thaw it out and then drain the tank and fuel lines to get it to run. Turns out the fine print on the bottle lable said 50% water.!! Never use Rubbing alcohol for de-icer !!!
 
This post from an E85 forum I visit. This guy is in charge of a bunch of gas stations that direct market ethanol through blender pumps(one tank of unleaded and one tank of ethanol in underground tanks). The price of E10,E20,and E85 is a lot less than if the oil company gets the ethanol before the consumer. He is talking about a new style blender that has three hoses instead of one and how they set the seasonal % of ethanol from 70-85%. Make sure you read the last line of his post. H2O is water in the post. Joe Norris has probably seen one of these new pumps.

Cessna- each side of the pump has an ethanol input line, meter, and valve (in that sequence) plus a gas input line, meter, and valve--now both drop into a manifold going to three valves, each one leading to a hose. Dispenser is programmed for the mix for each product. Customer pays, selects product, computer opens the valve leading to the correct hose and begins watching the two meters and controlling the flow from each with the valve at each meter by opening and closing them. Wink

Pump blends are set via a keypad inside the dispenser. The pump tech cuts a lead seal (certification for state agencies to show who set the blend), swipes a Gilbarco programming card in the card reader (to enable the keypad), flips the switch the lead seal was protecting, types in on the keypad the blend ratio for each hose position, flips the switch back to normal, applies a new lead seal, warm reboots the dispenser via the main outside (customer) keypad to lock the blend in, and now both sides of this dispenser (all six hoses) are ready to go in less than 5 minutes. Now my guys move in and do a phase separation H2O test to insure the pump tech did not program the blend in reverse- this will be done while the tech moves on to the next dispenser island. BTW- guess what we do with the water/fuel test samples?- into our flex fuel cars with e85 in the tank. Shocked
 
180Marty said:
Joe Norris has probably seen one of these new pumps.

Yes, indeed I have. There are a number of these around this area now. But I never knew exactly how they worked. Thanks for the interesting explanation.
 
China auto maker to develop hydrous ethanol engines
www.chinaview.cn 2008-01-01 17:29:03 Print

BEIJING, Jan. 1 (Xinhua) -- Dongfeng Motor Corporation, one of China's largest auto makers, has completed its initial research of using hydrous ethanol in automobiles.

The new technology could produce combustible gas, mainly hydrogen, from hydrous ethanol that contained 65 percent ethanol. The present ethanol-fueled vehicles needed pure ethanol blended with gas, the China Association of Automobile Manufacturers said.

Experts said producing 65 percent ethanol could save up to 60 percent of energy compared with producing the same amount of pure ethanol, as dehydration was energy-consuming.

The use of hydrous ethanol, unlike some synthetic fuels that required adapted engines, only needed an additional device to be fixed on present engines. Thus, it was more likely to be accepted by consumers.

The company planned to set up an ethanol-fueled car production plant by the end of 2008. This included a design and test center, as well as an assembly plant for ethanol engines.

The plant was expected to produce a small amount of ethanol cars by year-end.
 
Just got done reading another article in the May 2008 issue of Plane and Pilot on page 20. A little new info is about 1000 aircraft have racked up 800,000 hours using ethanol in Brazil. About 10 to 20% loss of range(depending on compression ratio). A gallon of ethanol is about 50% the cost of avgas in this country and 25% in Brazil.
Marty
 
Marty
Were the Brazilians using a blend of ethanol and gas, did they talk of phaze separation? I would like to go back to using auto gas but have been told it will degrade the carb seals and O rings which I can change out but mostly I am concerned about water.

Dennis
 
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