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flying skis

B

bob turner

Registered User
I have never flown on skis - anybody know of a good place to get some dual in a ski-equipped taildragger? A professional outfit that will have the equipment up and running when I get there? Doesn't have to be a Cub, but that would be nice! No snow down here . . .
 
Bob where are you from. If in the Northeast give a call to Damian over at Andover Flight Academy in Northern NJ. He puts his PA18-160 on skis (snow permitting) and provides great instruction. E mail him at WWW.bushflying.com He advertises on this site. Good luck John
 
come up next winter and you can join me on the trapline. Skis and all. I will even bring the extra snowshoes :lol: shovel :eek: but bring your own WARM WINTER sleeping bag :crazyeyes:

But snow here has been late.
 
Torch said:
If you fly a Super Cub on wheels you don't need instruction on skis.
Click to expand...

That works for us Canadian's Torch...but don't you guys need a ski endorsement to be legal??..we don't !

I always tell anyone that is hesitant to fly a taildragger to start in the winter on skis and then transition to wheels in the spring. Much easier going straight with them 5'+ "runners" on each side!

Cheers,
Wayne
 
Torch there is a rebel in every group. You will probably end this session with a little vendor bashing to boot. Thank God I only sell heating and Air conditioning systems I could not stand the abuse. Ha John :p
 
There is little additional skill involved in landing and taking off on skis, but a life time of knowledge to gain in choosing landing sites.
Ron
 
Torch said:
irishfield said:
Torch said:
If you fly a Super Cub on wheels you don't need instruction on skis.
Click to expand...

That works for us Canadian's Torch...but don't you guys need a ski endorsement to be legal??..we don't !

I always tell anyone that is hesitant to fly a taildragger to start in the winter on skis and then transition to wheels in the spring. Much easier going straight with them 5'+ "runners" on each side!

Cheers,
Wayne
Click to expand...

We don't need ski endorsements but to prevent the untimely abuse I may suffer for my remarks, please make sure that you obtain copius amounts of ski instruction before ever attempting a flight on such said skis. Afterall, it is a very hard thing to master, the Super Cub on skis.
Click to expand...

I undestood from some of my friends in the lower 48 that they had to get out and get a ski endorsement just like a float endorsement and I couldn't for the life of me figure out why since it's easier to fly skis than wheels. Of course no brakes, but not much different than flying a J3 with expanders etc. I guess I better also say go out and get lots of instruction as well so they stick to just picking on you Torch LOL :lol: Btw..if experimental you can put a brake on your skis if you want. Hydraulic cylinder actuating a claw on the back of the skis run off your normal brake pedal lines. The russian Yaks do this with their skis.

Wayne
 
Redbaron180 said:
There is little additional skill involved in landing and taking off on skis, but a life time of knowledge to gain in choosing landing sites.
Ron
Click to expand...
Now that's something I agree 110% with..don't forget your snowshoes, shovel and come along!

Cheers,
Wayne
 
There once was a Novack ski brake that was an ice pick that worked off of the brakes in the cockpit. Worked well on ice. I even know where there happends to be a set. STC'd if I recall...
 
Ron said it all, folks. This is another "well, no worries going off airport--if you can fly your airplane at an airport, you can do just fine on gravel bars.

Site evaluation is the great equalizer, folks, and there are many, many ways to spend a couple days, break your airplane, etc, on skis.

As to starting someone in taildraggers on skis first, it's pretty much pointless. If they don't have a tailwheel endorsement, they can't legally fly a tailwheel airplane (even on skis) solo. So, the only thing they could do in a ski plane is dual. And, no, you cannot meet the requirements of a tailwheel endorsement on skis.

Start em out on wheels, let them learn to fly the dang airplane BEFORE they take it off airport, where flying skills are so vital.

MTV
 
mvivion said:
As to starting someone in taildraggers on skis first, it's pretty much pointless. If they don't have a tailwheel endorsement, they can't legally fly a tailwheel airplane (even on skis) solo. So, the only thing they could do in a ski plane is dual. And, no, you cannot meet the requirements of a tailwheel endorsement on skis.

MTV
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Gee thanks Mike. I almost soloed someone on skis.
Where is that reg just so I don't make that mistake again.
Brian
 
s2d,

The regulation regarding a tailwheel endorsement says you have to train them in wheel landings, three point landings, and crosswind landings.

I submitted a query on this to our local FSDO, specifically relating to skis. They didn't have an answer, but said they'd query FAA Legal, which they did.

FAA Legals' response was that you could not meet the requirements of "wheel landings" on skis, therefore you could not legally endorse someone for a tailwheel endorsement if they had only flown a tailwheel airplane on skis.

And, no, I am not making this up.

In any case, look at it this way: Suppose you fly with someone on skis in a tailwheel aircraft, and endorse them for operation of a tailwheel aircraft. Now, spring rolls around, and that person takes their tailwheel endorsement out and hops in a Cessna 185 on wheels, which he or she is, according to you, qualified to fly. Have they done wheel landings? Have they done three points? Are you comfortable that you've actually given them instruction in a tailwheel (emphasis on the wheel part) airplane? I'm betting the FAA would come out to visit you.

There is no way that flying a ski equipped airplane in any way shape or form qualifies a person to fly that same airplane on wheels, in my opinion.

Furthermore, you cannot place conditions or provisions on a tailwheel endorsement, such as "no wheel operations". Either they are qualified in a tailWHEEL airplane, or not.

But, hey, ask the FAA your own self, and let us know what they say,

MTV
 
Interesting argument Mike. I'll have to look up the FAA definition of wheel landings.
Now suppose someone flys in in their turbo 210, with all the bells and whistles and wants a complete checkout in my PA-11 and I give him the full tour including Tailwheel endorsement. Is he not then legal (although not safe) to fire up his buddy's Dehavilland Beaver and go for it?
All good food for thought. Guess it comes down to how much you trust your student and what the definition of is is!! oops I mean wheel landing
 
I follow the argument there, but have to ask myself: If I have a packed runway can I not have a student set the main skis on before the tail ski, taxi tail up? is that not a "wheel landing"? Is there no such thing as working a ski plane tail up?

AS far as signoffs, how about for a Conventional gear aircraft?

It is also a good guarentee that if you have a pilot that flies his Mooney in, gets his tailwheel/conventional endorsment in the old champ, then buys a nice 185, hops in and heads for the hills without instruction that the rebuild mechanic will get a visit soon.

Yes, he is ok with the horsepower, constant speed, flaps, retract and tailwheel, but does not mean that he can fly that big engine and hudge tail in a bit of cross gust.....

At some point the pilots need to think for themselves, leaving egos at home. Otherwise we will need signoffs for each individual make/model :-?

Not doubting what you learned by the FAA, but like most government, keep calling until you get the answer you want. And most of their legal beagles (my opinion here) think an airplane is a file in OAK City...
 
My certificate says ASEL and ASES. There's no endorsement for skis, nor is there a restriction. I log ski time to the ASEL column, and I don't recall any requirements for ski currency prior to carrying passengers. The feds would have a hard time convincing me that ski landings don't qualify as landings toward an ASEL rating.

SB
 
§ 61.31 Type rating requirements, additional training, and authorization requirements.

(i) Additional training required for operating tailwheel airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane. The flight training must include at least the following maneuvers and procedures:

(i) Normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings;

(ii) Wheel landings (unless the manufacturer has recommended against such landings); and

(iii) Go-around procedures.

Courts and attorneys interpreting a regulation always look to the plain meaning of the word. In this instance it would be difficult if not impossible to read SKI in place of WHEEL even if the technique is similar.

But, I guess you can read the reg anyway you want.
 
Where is your ski time logged? If you go flying and land 4 times on skis, do you log those landings? In my flying life, everything fits into either the ASEL or ASES category, period.

In the regs, wheel landing refers to technique, not equipment. If the regs were to be taken literally, there needs to be a seperate rating for skis.

Perhaps since the regs above say "go-around procedures" instead of balked landing, they're referring to ground loops?

SB
 
djfraudman said:
(ii) Wheel landings (unless the manufacturer has recommended against such landings)

But, I guess you can read the reg anyway you want.
Click to expand...

Ha Ha!! good one Joe!!! I can see a manufacturer now-- We do not recommend wheel landings in this airplane-- all landings are to be made upside down to prevent damage to the wheels. :lol: Oh wait -- thats probably not what they meant by wheel landings -- or is it????

So now I can Solo someone in a Maule on skis since they don't recommend wheel landings.
and if anyone asks, they can just go ahead and jump in that old Jenny and have at it without an endorsement cause its a Tailskid airplane, not a tailwheel airplane.

thanks God I can claim ignorance as my defense :drinking: uh-- I can can't I Joe?? :wink:

Just looked and there is no Definition in FAR1 for wheel landings, so guess its still open to interpretation.
 
Guess that's why we keep it clear up here and don't require a tailwheel endorsement. That is what was stuck in my mind as being different between USA and Canada...it wasn't a ski endorsement it was a tailwheel endorsement. We don't need either of those...but of course proper training is advised if transitioning from a nose dragger.
 
SB,

Sure, ski operations are Single Engine Land operations (assuming a single engine aircraft of course). SEL is category and class. Skis are in that category and class, as are tailwheel aircraft, as are Cessna 150's. So what?

There is no requirement for a ski endorsement, but there is one for a tailwheel endorsement.

I am not trying to justify the FAA's response that a ski plane can't qualify one to fly a tailwheel airplane. That's the official answer we got from FAA legal. My guess is that it is duly logged somewhere in that bureaucracy.

More importantly, is there anyone here WITH both ski and tailwheel experience that actually believes that flying a ski airplane really prepares a pilot for flying ANY tailwheel airplane?

That's what I'm concerned with. There is no way that a person is going to experience even the most basic tailwheel concerns in a ski airplane.

You're right, if he or she gets a tailwheel endorsement in a Cub, then jumps in a Pitts Special, are they really qualified? Probably not, but at least the Cub will have given them the basics of operating a tailwheel airplane, and if they were paying attention and had a decent tailwheel intro, they may actually do okay.

Now, take that same person, put them in a Cub on skis, and then let them go to it in a Pitts (by the way, a Beaver is a pussycat on wheels) and I can guarantee you that they will not have been prepared at all for what they experience.

Hey, sign em off on skis all you want. But, you're not doing them any favors, and at least in my opinion, you really haven't done your job as an instructor.

MTV
 
Yea Mike we all agree that the best thing is to cover all bases. If you haven't noticed, I just like to argue the regulations just for the sake of arguement. And no checking a person out on skis only isn't the best thing to do. But a lot of Regs have grey areas for a reason.
If the right situation presented itself, I would have no problem signing a student off for first solo on skis with a tailwheel endorsement. If it was that or discontinue the lessons for a couple months. Maybe I'd keep his logbook and tell him he is only allowed to fly under my supervision and won't get his logbook back until I finish checking him out on wheels in the spring.
Wonder if you had wheel penetration skis but only landed on snow whether you could call those wheel landings??
 
Well, yeah, but none of that helps my Question. I have flown Cubs since 1961, but never experienced the joy of skis on snow. What I want is competent dual instruction from a competent instructor on snow - I don't plan to actually use whatever knowledge I gain here in Southern California, nor do I care about paperwork. If I haven't had the opportunity before now, this may be my only ski experience ever. Suppose I pick the wrong school, or the aircraft breaks before I get there, or whatever. Then, I'll in all probability never ever experience skis.

I have landed on snow, and once on glare ice (thank the gods for reversing props) and I think floats are about as much fun as you can have in a Cub.

How 'bout it? Any actual schools in Alaska? Any snow left in Ak? Did we get all the moisture down here this winter?
 
Bob,

Yes, we have snow. But the weather's been warm and is supposed to stay warm, so winter is waning. This time of year we can feel the heat of the sun melting everything one day and may get 18" of snow the next, but the calendar doesn't lie. Spring, if not already here, is just around the corner.
Don't wait too long.

SB
 
And, I'm in Arizona. Fairbanks has snow, being within the actual boundaries of Alaska :lol:

MTV
 
Mike - what are you doing in Arizona - visiting with my friends from Wien? My Husky students - who are doing OK on a 600' strip - might want to drop in on you!

Thanks for input on Alaska Floats & Skis - turns out the plan is Talkeetna anyway! Not sure who has been selected; I'll pass this on to the Comandante of our expedition.
 
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