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Thread: Starter "fun"

  1. #41
    T.J.'s Avatar
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    Dave;
    before you got sidetracked on "quote" instructions, I think you were going to comment on the Lamar starter? Heck., I can't even spell Lamar!

  2. #42
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    I hate to give negative comment to any product, Unless it's absolutely junk.

    Seconding your opinion of the Lamar was a way to comment without ruining ST.

    They've (ST) claimed never to have failed the very part I've seen. I've seen 'em, and heard of more. On the other hand, lots of guys have had good service with 'em.

    Have you seen the little starters on the big Continentals? The factory remans. come with 'em and they're tiny. They make inspections and oil filter/screen maint. way easier. Plus, they turn that big motor over really good.

    Guys, be careful with what you hear on the web or anywhere. Not everyone has the same experiences, and there is plenty of opinion here. That's why we need another "Gulkana". Proving ground!

  3. #43
    irishfield's Avatar
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    Just an update! Finally got a sunny and warmer day to reinstall the Skytec and a new remote solenoid. All seems to work well again and I just reinstalled as per original set up using the remote solenoid and no extra diodes.

    Unfortunately, possibly due to the power surges of the starter mess, my KLX135 Radio/GPS is messed up and will start a new thread for that!

    Wayne

  4. #44
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    A radio guy/mechanic/smart guy/pilot friend of mine mentioned he doesn't like the idea of the combination radio/GPS if that is your "primary" or only com radio.

    The idea is that when you send the GPS part out for fixing, you have no com. OR, when the com part is messed up, your GPS got sent out too cause it's part of the same unit.

    Sure, there are advantages to the combination.

    Also, one could have both a handheld GPS and a handheld Com as back-ups.

    .....just thought on the subject. I'm sure one could rationalize it another way, too.

    Sure, your WHOLE stack could get the magic black smoke let out of it, as well.

    ...just an idea.......

  5. #45
    PlanePlace's Avatar
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    Hey guys!

    Yes, I'm still here (the Sky-Tec factory rep and SuperCub.org lurker).

    I'm sorry I don't frequent this board more often, but usually I get 'tipped' to peek-in every now and then to offer up any help from the factory I can. Looks like Wayne's been busy.

    First off, the diode and starter engagement are two completely different animals. Please don't confuse them. And Wayne, please save yourself the exercise. You can't do it. The drive stays out for a period of up to 2 seconds. It's no big deal. It's normal. No diodes or anything else is going to change it. But I can't figure why you want to. Every permanent magnet starter we make does it. No one else has been so motivated to make it behave differently.

    As mentioned, ANY permanent magnet starter with the jumper in place (required if you have a firewall solenoid) will power itself for .5 to 2 seconds as I've mentioned (and someone previously noted). It's normal. There's no need to go Dr. Laboratory and try to concoct a way to stop it. It's okay. It's normal.

    Do NOT hook up the starter as mentioned by Wayne. Put the jumper on, hook it up per instructions and watch it stay engaged for a half second after starter button/key release. I fail to see the big deal here.

    If you don't like the starter staying engaged for a half second, buy the HT or High-Torque Inline model next time. They have wound field motors and don't keep themselves engaged at all. There, problem solved.

    As for the "Stolen from Ford" revelation. Way to go, Sherlock Holmes! Guys, where do you think we got the idea to start this company in the first place? The automotive industry was kicking aviation's butt. We had 6 lb starters in cars and 19 lb starters in planes. That was silly.

    Sky-Tec figured a way to leverage as much automotive technology as we could. Yes, we even buy some of our components directly from suppliers who cater to the automotive industry. Why wouldn't we? Why shouldn't we? If the quality is in place and the performance is to spec, why would we "engineer all new exclusively for aviation" like some manufacturers tout out there? SO we can also build $900 aircraft starters? No thanks, we wouldn't buy them for our own planes, so why should we expect anyone else would?

    Huge caveat: You've GOT TO WATCH OUT FOR AUTOMOTIVE PARTS. Quality varies vastly between suppliers. We are very close to our suppliers (some relationships go back 30+ years) and we watch quality like a hawk and rarely entertain new suppliers just because they "look like they came off a Ford truck starter" - [buzzer sound]. If you want to be your own starter QC R&D lab, and you fly an experimental aircraft, sure go for it. But if our company logo and nameplate is on the label and it's on a certified plane, we want that starter coming back to us for service so we can control the results and fulfill our obligation to the FAA as the Repair Station and legally return the starter to service.

    Personally, we already fought the legal battles for you when we obtained our PMA's for all our starters so you don't have to worry about what's going onto the front of your Lycoming (or back of your Continental). It's what we do for a living and while our prices are higher than buying Chinese look-alikes at the autoparts store, your peace of mind ought to be worth something too, right? We'll stand behind our parts and our workmanship.

    Besides, if EVERYTHING is broken in your 12V LS or PM starter, the MOST I will charge you to repair/overhaul it is $150. Is this not the best deal going in aviation maintenance? Our customers have been very positive across the board and I think you'll find our service (and product) prices more than fair and resonable.

    As for the plastic gears. Please send me the evidence. 30,000+ starters later, we at the factory have yet to see the plastic parts fail in our starter - EVER. That's the truth. That's the facts. If you have seen otherwise in the field, I sincerely want to know about it. But please don't confuse hangar flying "I've heard that..." conversations with fact.

    What else?

    Did I miss anything?

    Lots of posts.

    Let me know if there's anything else I can clear up.

    Sincerely,

    - Rich
    Sky-Tec
    800-476-7896

  6. #46
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Rich, Thank You.

    Hopefully I can get one of those "throw-out arm"(? nomenclature) plastic thingies back from the accessory place where I took a bad starter. They had seen several others. Maybe they've kept some around. It is not a gear, but the bendix engage arm (proper nomenclature?)

    I'll try to get to the bottom of this with some broken product for you to evaluate.

    Again, thanks for your response, thanks for stepping up to the plate in the first place to have a go in the aircraft industry, and thanks for coming back to little ol' supercub.org.

    DAVE

  7. #47

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    I have a ACS key starter switch that has a AD on it to install a diode on the starter relay, is this what you are talking about? Id like to know what the diode does on the starter relay in terms a electrical dummy could understand. Thanks.

  8. #48

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    Why don't you just buy B&C starter and forget the problems?

  9. #49
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    Rich, maybe I should have used the word "borrowed" vs Stolen in the posts, as if you read ALL my posts completely you will read that I have absolutely no problems with the Skytec starter (even stated I love them!), the use of Ford internals or plastic parts for that matter. Here is one of my posts and as I state...should be a non-issue considering # of starts for car vs airplane!

    "Nothing noted as worn or wrong with the throw out yoke etc. I have no problems with plastic parts (considering I own a plastic injection moulding co and have even made things like seat belt locking mechanisms from plastic for TRW and Bendix) as long as the CORRECT ENGINEERING RESIN has been used!! Amazing what you can make from plastic >IF< you do it right. I didn't see the starter apart, but will make sure I do if there is a next time!

    I also suspect this throw out yoke is also "stolen" from the Ford PM starter as well, so think of how many times a car gets started compared to an airplane and there really shouldn't be an issue."


    As for your..

    As for the "Stolen from Ford" revelation. Way to go, Sherlock Holmes!

    There wasn't any revelation..and I dont' even smoke a pipe!...just letting the guys know what was inside for when they came up against the same fate and needed to do something about it. Why wouldn't you use a high volume off the shelf unit to keep the costs down? To do otherwise would be financial suicide (for either the mfg or the end user!!).

    You state .5 to 2 seconds retract delay (and then base all your arguements on 0.5 sec). I timed a PM and an LS on my bench (properly hard-wired through remote solenoid with O gauge cables and not the garage monkey booster cable to lug "dance" before you suggest I did that!) The drive takes almost 4 seconds to retract at exactly the same time the drive stops spinning. You say this can't be quickened but it can... as I proved with diodes inline or firing the internal solenoid off the remote. Immediate retraction firing off remote and cut the retract time in half with the diodes. I would also suspect that this retract time gets increased even longer when the motor starts / flywheel is turning and the starter has become a generator..but you say who cares (is there really no concern here?? ). In my last post you will see I installed the starter identical to the way it was originally (for almost 100 hrs and probably 250 starts), because when it came right down to it a stuck remote solenoid caused this mess...nothing else!

    Your statement:
    "Huge caveat: You've GOT TO WATCH OUT FOR AUTOMOTIVE PARTS. Quality varies vastly between suppliers. We are very close to our suppliers (some relationships go back 30+ years) and we watch quality like a hawk and rarely entertain new suppliers just because they "look like they came off a Ford truck starter" - [buzzer sound]. If you want to be your own starter QC R&D lab, and you fly an experimental aircraft, sure go for it. But if our company logo and nameplate is on the label and it's on a certified plane, we want that starter coming back to us for service so we can control the results and fulfill our obligation to the FAA as the Repair Station and legally return the starter to service."

    As for Quality in the automotive field, there's not much you can teach me after almost 19 years as a tier two supplier to the big three (and others), so I'm not a dummy there. I respect your "obligation" for certified usages and I stated that right up front from my first post that I was within my guidlines of an Experimental/homebuilt. Yes your pricing is probably unheard of anywhere else in the airplane refurb market at $150 US for an overhaul. However I'm not going to pay shipping both ways, fight with the Customs bull rooster in two directions, pay $50 or $60 cdn in brokerage fees to get it back into Canada and as well go without my starter for a couple weeks..... when three blocks away I can drop it off, then pick it up the next day for a total output of $72cdn.

    Don't worry Rich, I'm still putting them on every engine I have built for resale (about 6 per year right now).

    Cheers,
    Wayne

  10. #50
    irishfield's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Icecub
    Why don't you just buy B&C starter and forget the problems?
    Icecub, this thread wasn't started as a "hatchet" at Skytec and I don't want it turned into one. If you want to do that, start another thread...but we have been there before if you check the archives and it drew absolutely no conclusion as to who was better than who..with nothing but a bunch of hear say.

    A stuck remote solenoid caused this mess... and nothing else.... that held the starter engaged for about 10 minutes until it burnt the brushes/holder and trashed the bendix drive.

    If the battery had of been fully up to snuff and the remote solenoid had not welded together....thus keeping the starter energized... the Skytec wouldn't have needed removal/overhaul.

    Cheers,
    Wayne

  11. #51
    PlanePlace's Avatar
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    So noted, Wayne (on my misinterperetation on a few points) - apologies for sure. But thanks for keeping things factual. If you can get me some stuff to look at, I'd love to see those lever arms (plastic enagement thingies we were trying to come up with a name for - all the guys in the shop here have a different name for those things so anything goes).

    By the way, this site is THE BEST. I try to plug into as many aircraft user group website chat boards as I can and this one BLOWS THEM AWAY.

    Thanks again, Wayne for seeing that things stay straight and narrow.

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