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Wipline Amphibs

Crash

GONE WEST
Nikiski Alaska
I'm thinking about the next project and am considering a 180hp PA-18 with 2,000 lb GW increase kit on Wipline amphibs. I live on a runway and it would be a lot more convienient then the 10 minute drive to the lake where I keep my float plane. Fuel out in the bush would also be a lot easier to get. Anyone out there have any performance statements as far as getting off a runway with two guys and gear as well a water performance. I wonder if Dakota extended / slotted wings would help when you rotate to get the extra 138 lbs worth of pump, wheels and gear off the ground? Crash
 
Crash, Mark Johnson at AvAlaska 248-7070 is a dealer.

He's got time in both the Husky and 180HP Cubs on the amphib and the straight 2100.
 
Crash,

Also, check your numbers. I seem to recall someone from Wip telling me that the amphib 2100's were only 90 pounds heavier than the straight float 2100's.

In any case, even with the gross weight increase, you'll have to have a VERY light airplane to be able to legally carry the load you propose.

The curse of the amphibious floatplane, zilch useful load.

But, as you say, getting gas is sure easier, and you can park overnight without worrying as much about tiedowns, sinking, etc.

There are benefits, for sure. I'd hope for the 90 pounds, my own self.

I've flown the Wip amphibs, and they do fine, performance wise, but they are heavy forward, and of course, heavy, period. I think an EDO 2000 equipped airplane will beat them out of the water, at equal weights, but that is the gold standard on the Cub in any case.

MTV
 
Crash,
I don't know what the straight 2100's weigh, but the exchange weight between PA-18 gear and the 2100a's is 296 lbs.
 
Weight

The 138 lbs is the weight difference between the straight 2100's and the amphibs according to the local Wipline dealer. I've never weighed a set myself. I don't even want to start the project if it's going to be a dissappointment as far as performance. Crash
 
Crash

Here are numbers I got from the IA at Wipaire for the 2100's on the PA-18:

Amphib's 379# @ 71.34"
Straight's 249# @ 72.75"
Right Step 3.6# @ 81"
Left Step 1.75# @ 62"
Paddle 2# @ 62"

These numbers are complete and with the pump installed in the upper fuselage just aft of the station where the dogleg is. These are not exchange weights, but total weights...so subtract for your gear etc.
The float weights DO NOT include the Steps and Paddle.

I suggest you run the numbers for your installation, the amphibs really run the cg forward, especially with 180HP.

From what I see the best setup would be Experimental PA-18 with 2200# Gross, 180HP and extended wings. I don't think the Slat would be worth the effort and weight as it performs best at higher angles of attack than I think one would ever see on floats.

Frank
 
GW

I think the Smith kit is rated at 2200 isn't it? The rumor mill here has Airframes Inc. and Dakota Cub coming out with their own PA-18 kit to compete with the Smith / Daytona Cub Kit. That might be the way to go since Dakota already has a beefed up extended wing that would most likely go 2200 lbs GW. An Airframes Inc. wide body PA-18 with Dakota extended slotted wings (90" flaps), an O-360 200 hp fuel injected engine, setting Baumann amphibs...might be the ticket. I'm starting to think that experimental might be the way to go, especially if you build it out of top quality stuff from Dakota Cub and Airframes Inc. Crash
 
Diggler

Ever look inside a Husky wing? The A1B has 2200# Gross on floats and is FULL of Univair/Piper Parts. Look how little it took for Wipline to get the PA-18 wing to 2000#(even the 13 rib wing works). Look at the gross weight of the Pawnee and its wing structure. Then there's the Northstar/PA-18 Clone. All these wings use some form of spar doubler/hat section for increased strength. The biggest issue is you need to keep the rear spar from kinking at the rear lift strut.

There are spars available for experimental use, that are 20% stronger than stock Piper, the Dakota ribs are stronger than the Factory Originals, do a full wrap extended leading edge, add some doublers on the spars and strut fittings, and I have NO PROBLEM hanging my butt under these wings at 2200#.

What limited Wipline to 2000# was not the wing.

Frank
 
The Wipline 2000# STC does not require the X brace over the pilot. We all know the X brace adds a lot of strength. With the X brace I just do not see a concern about compression loads in the upper fuselage. Personally I would not build without including the X brace at any GW. If you feel the need for more strength you can always go up one wall thickness in the tubing. That's the BIG PLUS with Experimental "No STC Needed".

Same with Gross weight...the builder decides.

Remember the Wipline 2000# STC, makes it legal at 2000#....how many cubs have been flown on floats for years at these weights without the benefit of the STC.

I'm sure Diggler thinks a 2200# Cub on Amphibs would be a BIG PIG. Truth is, on Amphibs, 2200# is what you REALLY need to make a really useful airplane out of it. I'd much rather be Experimental and set the gross at 2200# and be legal, than have the Wipline 2000# STC, get ramp checked and be 150/200# OVER GROSS.

Frank
 
For what it's worth: My good buddy Steve has a 150 Cub on 2100 amphibs, with 2000# kit and 48 gal. fuel. Legally, he can't carry much fuel even with one pilot, and even then the aircraft requires ballast to remain in envelope.
With that said, the airplane is a real kick, because we can land on water, even out here in the semi-desert.
Wips have a problem with nosewheel shimmy. They desperately need an approved shimmy damper, and their "angle change" doesn't do much. If you "finesse" it on to the pavement, often you can avoid the shimmy. The tire is good for about ten to twenty shimmy landings.
Still, what fun!
 
Frank,

Excellent points all. It is interesting to note what passes certification, and what sometimes doesn't.

I fully agree with you on the X brace.

A comment was made earlier reference the Husky wing being certificated at 2200 on floats, and is full of Univair/Piper parts. That is partially true, but one of the primary changes made between the A-1 and A-1B was the rear spar, which was manufactured from a different alloy in the A-1B for additional strength.

Amphibs are always forward in CG, and when heavy, don't come out of the water like a straight float airplane, due to the forward weight. That's a fact of life.

But I agree with you fully, if you want something that looks like a Cub, and want to run amphibs, I'd go homebuilt, use the parts that are strongest, and make the most sense, then set a gross weight that makes sense to me.

If I were doing this, I'd pick the Baumann amphibious floats, since frankly, they perform better than the Wips, due to fluted bottoms.

Sounds like a heck of an airplane, if you get there.

As I noted on another thread, a friend is cooking up a homebuilt with the Buccaneer airframe (four seat Tern), a Husky wing, and a 200 hp Lyc. Wants it on floats. It should be a pretty interesting plane if he ever gets it done, and everything is set right.

MTV
 
Do 2100 Wipline anfibs really only weigh 379#? Has anyone really weighed them, or is this sales information, seems light to me. I recently purchased a used set of Edo 2250 anfib floats, I have not weighed them, but Kenmore claims they weigh 460# ready to go. I don't have any experience with Wipline floats, are they really good for 2100# displacement? I was told by someone that Wipline and Edo calculate displacement differently. They said that a Wipline float displacement is exaggerated in relation to Edo's displacement calculations. Has anyone else heard this?

Does anyone know off hand the weight of Super Cub gear removed when floats are installed (assuming 31" tires)?
 
Re: GW

[quote="Crash" I'm starting to think that experimental might be the way to go, especially if you build it out of top quality stuff from Dakota Cub and Airframes Inc. Crash[/quote]

Crash have you been with Andy agian??? Did I hear you right "Experimental">>> I think you are right! I am looking at doin the same thing (probably be another year or so) I don't have any water to keep a cub, but darn I want to fly floats again, and yet I don't want to give up the Useful load either.

Happy Newyear!

Tim
 
KSECUB

The weights I posted above on the Wipline 2100A's are right off a Weight and Balance Worksheet in Wipaire's Shop.

As for displacement, you want to compare freshwater displacements.
There is also an 80% reserve boyancy number and that is where the games were played. Some mfg's have used the Reserve Boyancy numbers as their model numbers.

Freshwater Displacements:

Edo 2000's 2000#
Wip 2100A's 2185#
Wip 2100S's 2323#
Baumann 2150A's 2140#
Baumann 2100S's 2216#
Aerocet 2200's 2230#

The Edo information I have shows that their 2500 Amphibs weigh 603# so your 2250's probably weigh all of 460# Kenmore is telling you.

Wipaire uses 94# for the exchange weight of a STOCK Cub Landing Gear and tailwheel (just as they came on a factory new 150hp PA-18). Extended and/or HD gear, larger tires, etc. all weigh more. Your 31" Bushwheels probably add another 62# to that, or 52#if you have the radials.

Frank
 
Frank,

Double check your exchange weights. Eighty four pounds would be a SUPER deal. I think it might be 184 pounds for straight floats, but even that seems pretty light for amphibs.

I think the Baumanns are around 168 exchange weight with Goodyear 26 inch tires, and the amphibs are at least 100 pounds heavier than that.

None of the float manufacturers were doing voodoo with displacement numbers. It is important to understand a couple of things when it comes to floats:

1) the number designation of the float frequently bears no direct relationship to the actual fresh water displacement of the float.

2) amphibious floats are often listed by the same designation model number as their straight float equivalent, but with an "A" model designator. In fact, nearly all amphibious versions of a float model will have less displacement than a straight float version of the same float. They do this just so they can keep families of floats together.

3) The certification standard for floats does not require that there be a 100 % of the gross weight of the airplane be displaced by the floats

4) the float displacement is for ONE of the floats, in fresh water, not for the set.

5) all this stuff can get confusing.

As to the weights of the 2250's, I'd believe the weight given. They are heavy little floats. Wip and Baumann have done a good job of reducing weight of these little amphibs.


MTV
 
Thanks for all the info guys. I knew the Edos were heavier, but I was hoping the weights were a little closer. I love my 2250 anfibs, they are built like a tank. I guess thats the price I pay for robustness.
 
mvivion

I stand corrected, I was working from memory. I took another look at Wips Data Sheet and it's actually 94# (79# for the Main Gear, and 15# Tail Gear). The 94# is the DEDUCT for the FACTORY STOCK gear and tires (6x6). I doubt few here actually have this light a set-up though. Using the 94#, the EXCHANGE weight for the Amphibs would be 292#, and for the Straight floats, 162#. This includes the Steps and Canoe Paddle.

Frank
 
Does anyone know about wing reinforcement and/or ac strength of the
Smith/Daytona ac to handle 2300# gross loads? Or signifigant improvements of that ac to handle such loading?
 
Nocub said:
Does anyone know about wing reinforcement and/or ac strength of the
Smith/Daytona ac to handle 2300# gross loads? Or signifigant improvements of that ac to handle such loading?

Nick Smith Jr. dictates that they are recommending #2000
pound gross on the round tip version and #2200 on the square wing version of their kit PA-18 replica. Any numbers higher than that are the responsibility of the builder.

Cheers,
Wayne
 
Can amphibs be made lighter?

We are looking for an Amphib Super Cub, the one we are looking at now Has the Dakota wing and float fittings, but no floats. Cub Crafters will install a set of new Wipline 2100 Amphibious Floats for 45.5k installed. I was looking at a J3 a while ago with no electric on Amphibs that were hand-pumped. I liked that idea, and then I looked at a cub being rebuilt in the experimental category that had a hand-pumped only setup. What weight savings does this do for you, and is it possible to do this on a certified cub. Also does anyone have any experience (positive or negative) with this setup?
 
Re: Can amphibs be made lighter?

Bug Smasher said:
We are looking for an Amphib Super Cub, the one we are looking at now Has the Dakota wing and float fittings, but no floats. Cub Crafters will install a set of new Wipline 2100 Amphibious Floats for 45.5k installed. I was looking at a J3 a while ago with no electric on Amphibs that were hand-pumped. I liked that idea, and then I looked at a cub being rebuilt in the experimental category that had a hand-pumped only setup. What weight savings does this do for you, and is it possible to do this on a certified cub. Also does anyone have any experience (positive or negative) with this setup?

Murphy's "experimental" 1800 amphibs use strictly a hand pump and I wouldn't do it any other way. 18 pumps bring the gear up and about 20 going down. If the count is wrong, something IMPORTANT is wrong. Ie you've blow an line in the case of too many pumps or something has jammed in the case of not enough pumps. You can see the pressure spikes on the gauge as each cylinder locks the gear into place etc. Compared to an electric pump that just runs until it has no oil left in the case of a blown line, I prefer the hand pump. For weights, you always have a hand pump back up anyhow (or should) so that's a given no matter what. The electric pump I have here for a set of EDO3500's has to weight at least 12 pounds and probably more. Can weigh it for you if you want an exact weight, since it's in a box and not attached to an airframe!

Cheers,
Wayne
 
I had assumed that using only a hand pump would be lighter. The cub i looked at also had a bracket on the floor between the pilots legs that allowed the pump to be removed when on wheels, from what i saw at Cub Crafters the electric pump isn't exactly removable.
 
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