Seaplane Doors

[narov]

Ok, probably a simple answer for those who have seen one recently or installed one. I would like to put a seaplane door (like in the 12's or 20/22's) in my project plane and am curious as to how they hinge, how the hinge is attached etc. A 337 I have refers to a extruded piano hinge but doesn't go into detail about attachment. I am guessing that there is some accepted standard practice for this?? Anyone care to share or post pics or even a sketch?

Thanks,

Carlon

[klm_ak]

Carlon,
I don't have a picture of my new PA-12 doors here at work, but if you'll send me a pm with your e-mail I'll try to remember when I get back to Anchorage.

The part number we used for hinges was MS20001-5 from Reeve Air Motive in Anchorage. 907-272-8522. $14/ft when I bought it earlier this year. This hinge is extruded rather than having the ears bent over the pin.

We used machine screws and nyloc nuts, if memory serves, to hold the hinge to both the door and the airframe.

KLM

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[narov]

Thanks KLM.

Pm is on the way

Carlon

[Cub Kid]

KLM

about how much does the Crosswinds cargo cost? I am considering putting one on mine


Bill

[klm_ak]

Well now, how much do the cargo doors cost? I hope you're asking about the paperwork because I might be too embarrassed to admit what I spent getting them in.

It looks like when I went out to Charly's and picked up this STC it was $100. Now for the interesting part. At least when I picked it up, he didn't have an STC for a PA-12. The STC is for PA-14 only. I spoke to someone at the FAA last week who was certain one had been issued for the PA-12 but I haven't had a chance to go talk to him in person about it.

I got one of those magic pre-October 1 field approvals based on the fact that the drawings did in fact reference PA-12 even though the STC was for PA-14.

They are a lot of work, by my count there are 26 tubes to be welded in (unless some have been previously installed). You remove enough structure that I would think a fuselage jig would be a really good idea at least for the door post R&R. Then you have to build door frames and doors, and then get some sort of field approval on a new seat mount (at least if my plane was any indication).

[Cub Kid]

KLM,

Thanks a bunch...the exact info I was looking for. Sounds like a lot of work. I assume you built your door from your old one. I think you are right it does sound like a lot of work. I am considering a Dakota fuselage on this project so it might be the time to do it. Will probably stick to my Supercub style door though. What other mods did you incorporate into your rebuild.
Thanks

Bill

[klm_ak]

No, never one to do things the simple way, both doors and both door frames were built completely from scratch. In aluminum. With the PA-12 window on the left. May have put too heavy a layer of plexi on though.

Other Mods.
Wing Mounted Single HID Landing light with flasher
Heavy duty rear struts
AD tie downs
AD strut reinforcement
Rebuilt wings with new spars/Dakota Ribs/D&N Tips
D&N Extended Flaps moved Ailerons outboard
Air Energy Service 24 gallon tanks (w/sight guages and lid hinge removal)
PA-18 style Fuel System
1935# gross weight increase
4 leaf Pawnee Spring
Aluminum floorboards front to rear
Removeable upper and lower rear seat bars
Storage boxes
Welded in mounts for valves/ski pump/firewall battery/float rudder pulleys/low point drains/seaplane braces
Increased baggage area weights
Extended Rear Windows (already had skylight)
Dual Full Glazed Seaplane doors
Electronic International UBG-16 (all inputs used) with recorder
Fiberlite instrument lights
Extended upper baggage door
Upper baggage aluminum floor with door passthrough to lower extended baggage.
Cruise prop
Wheel pants
6.00x6 tires (still have my 8.50's for my wheel skis and borer prop)
Metal aero gear leg fairings
Replaced all factory fairings (modified gear leg)
Flap gap seals upper/lower
Cometflash strobes
Various 12V accessory points
Lightweight Alternator
Airwolf Oil Filter
AD-Heater Box/Custom Muff
Custom Heat director box with rear seat heat/defrost
Aluminum Oil Cooler on rear baffle with cockpit controlled air control
Steves Gascolator

Nearly everything metal in the fuselage, plus the metal cowl/boot pieces, gear, and tail feathers were powder coated prior to the covering with the ceconite and a custom R/W/B paint job.

And a host of "small things". All this on top of what was (until the windstorm) a nicely fabricated (read: well modified) 12 year old Crosswinds rebuilt fuselage.

I tried my best to make sure that every nut/bolt or piece of metal that wasn't on the original type certificate got a field approval. As a result, the paperwork now weighs more than the airplane and I can go flying....

[howieb38]

If anyone is interested in sea plane doors for the PA-18, I met the A&E who owns the STC. He's in the process of refurbishing his fifth one and is putting another door on the left side, both doors are Clamshell design.

You can PM me and I'll email you his phone number and name.

[JohnnyR]

Current sources for PA-18 seaplane or patroller doors for an experimental? Or do I just do plexi instead of fabric on standard door frames?

If anyone is interested in sea plane doors for the PA-18, I met the A&E who owns the STC. He's in the process of refurbishing his fifth one and is putting another door on the left side, both doors are Clamshell design.

You can PM me and I'll email you his phone number and name.

[DENNY]

Build your own to fit with aluminum frame and cover with clear stuff. The trick is to make sure they are weather tight!!! DENNY

[stewartb]

Split doors or clamshell? The trick to clamshell doors is breaking a shape for door jambs. Maybe Scooter can share a pic of 53M’s doors/jambs to illustrate. We got it right on that plane.

Truth be told, I had 53M on floats for a couple of summers and never used the LH door. Full plex makes for awesome vis for the rear seater so totally worth doing, or do fixed plex in the same area. My upper LH window is big enough for Jackie Gleason to go through, so no need for the lower to move.

[Scooter7779h]

Split doors or clamshell? The trick to clamshell doors is breaking a shape for door jambs. Maybe Scooter can share a pic of 53M’s doors/jambs to illustrate. We got it right on that plane.

Truth be told, I had 53M on floats for a couple of summers and never used the LH door. Full plex makes for awesome vis for the rear seater so totally worth doing, or do fixed plex in the same area. My upper LH window is big enough for Jackie Gleason to go through, so no need for the lower to move.

Interesting Stewart I only use LH door to get in and out. I leave the ski hydraulic pump in year round so there’s more room coming in and out on the left side, especially in winter gear and bunny boots!

I can take some close ups at hangar tomorrow. These are Crosswind STOL’s STC. Stewart did a wonderful build on this -12.






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[ak49flyer]

Delete

[JohnnyR]

I can fly in the MOAC with “stock” doors and windows open - something I’m looking forward to doing after being cooped up in the wagon for years.
What about with the seaplane doors? Doesn’t look as sturdy with the bifold arrangement.

[skywagon8a]

What about with the seaplane doors? Doesn’t look as sturdy with the bifold arrangement.

I have the "stock" split doors on both sides of my Cub. It is just as sturdy as a one door Cub and I use both doors on nearly every flight.

[KJC]

Regarding the most current question, is this on an -18?

[JohnnyR]

What I meant to say was that with the stock "split" doors we can fly with both open.

The one-piece bifold seaplane door doesn't look as if it would be as sturdy an arrangement if flown open. Do folks fly with seaplane doors pinned open/up?

I have the "stock" split doors on both sides of my Cub. It is just as sturdy as a one door Cub and I use both doors on nearly every flight.

[JohnnyR]

Yes - wide body PA-18-related question

Regarding the most current question, is this on an -18?

[KJC]

I’m a little confused on the question still. The photos above show a PA-12. It has a single piece door held in the up position by a hydraulic actuator like this:




I think you are looking for something like this with a plexiglass or lexan clear lower door. The upper door is held in the open position by a latch or crows foot.

[KJC]

Here is a picture of the assembly drawing for the upper door showing the location of the latch.

Attachment 59538

[stewartb]

How the door sills are configured determines whether you can have a fold-down lower door. With these exp Cub doors getting bigger the split door can be a challenge. My lower door-to-strut attach is very close. So close that the newer Backcountry Cubs have gone to one-piece swing up doors. That said, a Cub door would be flat while a -12 door has a gull wing bend. A -12 door can be flown open but the door will hover at about 45° open if not latched to the wing. No idea if a Cub door would behave the same.

FWIW, my Cub looks the same on left and right as far as plexi goes. With no lower left door the throttle remains in the normal position for front and back seats. Not having a rear seat throttle wasn’t a deal breaker in the -12 but given the opportunity I did include it in this Cub. One more thing to consider.

[JohnnyR]

Thanks, guys.
To clarify - the question regarded options for experimental PA-18 seaplane or "patroller" doors with see-through bottom sections.

I've seen 1-piece swing-up seaplane doors on a PA-18, but perhaps they were a mod that the owner did.

[stewartb]

Here’s how my lower plex door is configured. The plex edges are covered with an angle, and on three sides the door seal is applied to the angle. We added stop tabs front and back so the door aligns properly every time. The hinge is external so the door sill is smooth. There’s nothing to snag my pants on this way.

[KJC]

Ok. Clear lower door. Like this then. Use #6 keyed riv nuts and #6 cad plated machine screws and countersunk washers. You need to weld tabs along the upper edge of the door as shown because the latch rod runs inside the door and you can’t have machine screw protruding.

[KJC]

Stewart s that some kind of wiper seal on that door as opposed to bulb seal on the frame?

[stewartb]

https://content.assaabloyusa.com/doc/AADSS1052261&.pdf

[Scooter7779h]

Split doors or clamshell? The trick to clamshell doors is breaking a shape for door jambs. Maybe Scooter can share a pic of 53M’s doors/jambs to illustrate. We got it right on that plane.

Truth be told, I had 53M on floats for a couple of summers and never used the LH door. Full plex makes for awesome vis for the rear seater so totally worth doing, or do fixed plex in the same area. My upper LH window is big enough for Jackie Gleason to go through, so no need for the lower to move.

Here’s some photos of 53M doors. Right hand the same. Field Approval in paperwork. Automotive hatchback pneumatic lift units.


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[Flyinwild]

Would be nice if you post a picture here of the seaplane door mount you did.

[jrb]

PA12 Seaplane door. Strut keeps it fully open in coordinated flight. Seems to like to close when dropping out items, less coordinated trying to keep an eye on my target.

[Scooter7779h]

Would be nice if you post a picture here of the seaplane door mount you did.

Will try to remember to post a photo tomorrow when I’m at the hangar.


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[Scooter7779h]

Here is mine, forgot about the request.


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