What do you think of the Civil Air Patrol

I was just curious of what everybody thinks of the Civil Air Patrol.
Anybody had any experiences with them...good or bad.
Do they do their job well?
My son is a cadet member...and I was just wondering what other pilots might think of the organization and how they do their mission.
Randy

I've been impressed with the Civil Air Patrol. They are taught well!

Every year there is a medium sized airshow in the area (Blue Ash Ohio) and a couple of years ago I parked my Super Cub there as a static display. One morning I decided to go flying and found my ELT was missing and I told the local FBOs about it.

A couple of days later I got a call from one of the FBOs and was told that there were some people who wanted to talk to me. I show up and it was two Feds and a local cop and they have my ELT. They told me that on one night during the airshow an ELT was transmitting and a search was conducted. The CAP had found my ELT in the bushes where it had been turned on and then hidden there.

Ultimately an investigation began and after some serious torture one of the CAP kids broke down, confessed to opening the side window of my Cub, plucking the thing from it's mounting, firing it up and tossing it into the bushes.

No charges were filed but the point is that obviously the CAP kids do learn about aviation and they do obviously have a lot of fun doing it!

I believe the the CAP is very cool! I'm certain this is an isolated incident and is not representitive of the CAP but is representitive of kids everywhere. I would have done the same thing...

My 15 year old daughter has been a Cadet for a year, my nephew and niece for a couple of years. My experience is only with the Cadet program. My observation is that different squadrons are vastly different. The stated mission may be the same, but the group dynamics of the leadership, and that of the Cadets are very different between squadrons. I would suggest a trial period within your local squadron to see how your kid fits in with the group. The two squads I'm speaking of are both local. The focus for cadets is aerospace education, moral leadership, and physical fitness. They do survival outings, simulated search and rescue, and get to go up in a plane or glider occasionally. The tone is of military discipline and respect. My only concern with my daughters' group is sometimes the moral leadership sessions turn into a Bible class with the message determined by people I don't know, or necessarily agree with. As with teenager groups everywhere, some groups are enthusiastic and some just drone along. Which group dynamic you have will make the difference in your childs' experience. The danger is a bad group can turn kids off to a good program.
SB

For a New or Old Time pilot it can be a really good deal. If you can handle the paper work, and follow their rules and regs, you can rent a CAP plane for almost nothing! Now this doesn't mean you can throw the wife and kids in the plane but you can use it for training purposes. Mainy units will sometimes have a CFI in the ranks by coincidence. So it goes to say you can advance your flying capability. And you can learn alot from the other pilots.

Now the Other Side.

Paper work can become a hassle. Forms for this, forms for that, kind of story. It is a part of the Air Force, be it our 18th line of defence , so sometimes you get guys who want to be fighter pilots, have rank and all that BS but don't want to take the time to go through the real deal! This becomes a real aggravation when you have to deal with their Ego's and crap they spill out. (We had a guy spent 2 hrs. one night teaching us how to propperly salute, funny thing he had never been in an Armed Force until he join the CAP 1 year earlier!)

Finally the Airplanes

As i said above, you can have some real idiots in the ranks. Now put them in an airplane that they don't own, have to fix, and don't care how they treat it. My father contracted the maintenance for the KY wing for about 5 or 6 years, and the planes would sometimes come back looking and flying like a Sh_t Hole. REALLY aggravating!! 100hr inspections would come in 50 hrs past due. oil changes the same way. Finally had one guy burn up 2 engines in three years from poor technique.

hope i haven't painted to much gloom and doom for the CAP. it's really a good outfit with just a few bad apples around. And hell if you like to fly, then do it !

nkh

Rick, I like that story about the ELT!!!!

Got a similar story

We had a CAP Search and Rescue exercise about 2 years ago. Cadets worked the ramp, directing planes to parking and the fuel pumps. One of the pilots (a really good pilot and a preacher) taxied up to the pumps and had the nose wheel and on main gear of the C172 inside the yellow caution arc around the pumps. A cadet about 15 or so, see's this and proceeds to write up a violation on the pilot. (Now there's no Reg by the FAA or CAP about going inside the arc. It's there just as a caution indicator and nothing else.) Well the violation is handed to the Wing Commander and he proceeds to GROUND the Pilot!!!! it took about two months to get the pilot back on flight status.

Go figure, Government Ops

Jack booted thugs has been my experience. We had a Cheyenne go in the fog a little over a year ago here. Couldn't find it. We were out in the Super Cub looking and the CAP arrived and wanted us out of the area. Fine, but they screwed round with lunch and stuff till the ceilings came down. They wouldn't fly. Helicopters hired by the family found it while the CAP drank coffee.

They did a training exercise (looking for a terrorist ring as noted in the newspaper) a few weeks ago. The main unit arrived in a turbine Otter. I went up to look at it. You woulda thought I was a terrorist. Not even a hello. Tried to strike up a conversation and was meet with a cold shoulder. I have always gone out of my way to help when a pilot doesn't close his flight plan or when an ELT is going off here at the airport but they can kiss my ___.

I've had 2 experiences, one good, one bad. We had them out at our local fly-in, and it seemed like a good bunch - the kids were excited and amped to be there, and the adults continued to yell at them to walk, not run from plane to plane. My other experience with them was a couple weeks ago, flying around on a Saturday. They proceded to tie up a busy unicom that served two airports, one with 4 planes practicing the ILS, for 20 minutes while they did a role call and position report. I've never heard anyone that verbally abused on a radio after he finished and others could talk !

I will be brief, cause most has been said before! check out the local squadron with a "qualified pilot", better yet with an EX or active member from another squadron. Some are great some are horrible.

I have over 2000 hours flyin search and rescue for the CAP in Southeast Alaska, WE worked hard, played hard, and trained a lot of pilots, in everything from SC to an Otter!. I learned to fly a Beaver on floats in the CAP! When I moved to Anchorage, and joined the Birchwood Squadron we had a great group untill it got all F##%ked up with 'city boys from Anchorage and ARCC at Elmondorf, along with the political crap that littery ripped the heart out of the Alaska Wing!

All that being said, I believe there are still a lot of Dedicated Men and Women "actively involved". I would not jump in a plane with any of there "pilots" without a referral from a civilian (not in the CAP) that knows the qualifications of the Chk pilot. I nearly got killed in a C185 when the so called Check pilot was insistant on demostrating to me with (5000hrs) in MY OWN 185 how to short field land a 185! No joke!

Randy, you likely still have some good ol boys that love aviation, kids, God and Country back in your neck of the woods? Go to some meetings, drills and check it out for yourself!

Tim

Many years ago, I attempted to join my local group. I was told (by the interviewing officer) that ?it just wasn?t for me? because I had indicated on my application that I was in my early thirties (too young for their group) and I didn?t have my own plane (would be mooching rides). Those were his words!

I talked to my folks about this, because they were both high ranking officers in another group, and had been in the organization for over ten years. Their advice was that I drop it, because the CAP had turned into a social ?click? with a petty political agenda. Many of the members had sought their own personal gain and promotion first, and the mission statement came second. In less than a year after that, my folks quit and never looked back.

Now that I have the Cub, and have aged quite a bit, I was again thinking about offering my services to them. But after reading these posts, I?m back to my ?screw em? attitude. Thanks for reminding me guys!

Now on the other hand, we do have the ?Young Eagles? program here. That sounds a lot better to me.

Guess the old boy was right, CAP ?just isn?t for me? but depending on where you live, it may be just the ticket for you.

Now here?s the ironic part. If I go down, who?s gonna look for me? Probably the people I just bad-mouthed!

In Alaska, it's the National Guard or the Air Force. I've loaded friends into Blackhawks when injured on snowmachines, and had friends whose bodies were recovered by the Air Force Rescue squadrons. I don't know anyone rescued or located by CAP. I'm always stunned at the number of Beavers the CAP has up here. Not junk, either. Modified, good looking Beavers. 135 operators can't afford Beaver insurance, but apparently we taxpayers can. That tax money would be better spent on a fence to keep the walkers from letting their dogs pee on my plane.
SB

dogs

StewartB
You wouldn't happen to own that plane on lakeshore drive that all the dogs visit would you?

CAP

I have only good things to say for the people I know who are in CAP, but they were my friends first and I found out they were in CAP later. They don't necessarily have good things to say about other members of CAP either. I think it is a lot like all volunteer organizations and in a way politics. There are two kinds of people, those who value public service and you cherish their work, and those who want the glory or power.

KLM,
One of those is mine. The dogs keep coming. I was taking off my wing covers one day, and a dog walked up and peed on my foot. The owner couldn't understand why I was upset. True story.
SB

I read an article in the paper the other day about a cherokee six that went down (can't remember if in NJ or Penn). Cap located it and a group of those kids with one adult hiked in several miles through deep snow to rescue four kids. Pop and fifth kid perished.
Ken

CAP value

I grew up in a family where we spent a significant amount of time in the mountains of New Mexico searching for lost hikers and hunters. My parents belonged to what was once the premier S&R group in the state. Legal changes and group dynamics eventually ended that organization, and CAP and the NM State Police have picked up the coordination. My step-dad who was also in that S&R group is now a mission coordinator and Lt. Col. in the CAP. They do a great job in concert with other volunteer organizations. CAP also does missions in support of the DEA and INS, overall it has great value. Personally, I don't belong for only one reason-the paperwork.

The CAP in North Carolina has had a run of bad luck recently: late last year four were killed in a stall / spin accident while flying a C172 on a marijuana eradication flight. Shortly before that two were seriously injured when they clipped the trees at the arrival end of my home airport. Both accidents seem to be cases of poor airmanship.

I have watched them land at my home airport (2900', asphalt, 2.6% slope), and they typically land long and fast. Based purely on their airmanship and accident record, I would not allow my children to participate in the local CAP outfit.

What do I think of CAP? Not much. I've been a senior member for three years, and have yet to participate in one S&R mission, which is the reason I rejoined as a pilot with almost 400 hours (I had been a cadet many years ago). I really wanted to give something back, both to my fellow pilots, the country that allowed me to become a private pilot, and my community. But there's the good ol' boy club with their massive egos that won't let anyone new break in. My squadron commander kept encouraging us to fly the plane, mainly so HE could get the wing's Top Prop award! But he didn't want us to become a "flying club." He wanted to make sure he could get the plane when he wanted it, and since he was also the scheduler, he had first dibs.

Our cadets are an afterthought, and most of them seem unenthused about anything. Teaching aerospace education to a bunch of kids who won't even read a few pages of the book beforehand didn't inspire me very much, but it's all my SC would let me do.

Oh yes, the paperwork is horrendous. There's way too much of it, and it often gets lost (why???). We had one lady who had to apply six times to get her well-deserved promotion to Major. It was never denied, just kept getting lost.

We've had a number of well-qualified people come into the squadron, then leave after a year or so. Favors are bestowed only upon the privileged few. Too many guys wrapped up in the military aspect, and not enough in the volunteer mode. I say, let them go turn off errant ELTs in the middle of the night! Not for me! Needless to say, I won't be renewing when my dues are up in May.

Anne.

If your interested in S&R missions you might talk to your state aeronautics division. Here in MT the state aeronautics division runs the search for an aircraft. They have a call up list of qualified pilots for both mountain and prairie searches. They also have a yearly mountain search pilot's clinic. Been involved with 3 searches for down aircraft, been good experiences, other than the fact the down crews didn't survive the initial abrupt arrival.
Lug

Although I've never been a member, I've been around the CAP since I was a kid... My observations of them mirror Anne's, it's why I never joined...

Yeah Anne you hit it. The KY wing is just the same.

Heres anouther great story

Recently we had a pilot take out a C182. He stated that he noticed red fluid under the right main gear, and that had little braking power. DUH!!
Anyway, takes off, fly's around for awhile, then remembers he doesn't have a right brake. decides that a down wind, down slope landing would be the best solution. Ends up running off the the end of the runway (5000 ft.) flips over and destroys the C182.

idiots!

My experience with CAP has been similar to many others on the list, and mostly negative.

As noted by one respondent, in Alaska, most of the no joke rescues are completed either by the Troopers or the military, not by CAP. In fact, in my experience, the CAP has been pretty much irrelevant in all the searches I've seen conducted.

Most of the time, up here, friends or relatives do the most to find missing folks, in addition to the troopers and military.

The CAP spends a huge amount of money, flying extremely expensive aircraft for very minimal gain.

I broke an axle once, mid winter, remote lake. Turned on my ELT. CAP came over with a 185 on wheel skis. They wouldn't land on a very large lake to pick me up (at -30 F) so I spent the night, which I was prepared to do in any case.

They noted that they arent allowed by policy to actually land on snow, even though they drag those very expensive skis around all the time. They asked me (via radio) if I wanted messages passed along. I asked that they pass a message to my mechanic that he might want to prepare to help fix the plane.

Next day was Saturday, mechanic showed up with a guy I never met in his airplane. We fixed the airplane and flew home. Turns out the CAP got back to town after telling me to turn off my ELT and called the troopers to tell them I'd been found. The search (and rescue) effort ceased. If it hadn't been for my friend the mechanic, finding a customer who'd fly him out there to fix the plane, I'd have sat out there till hell froze over, thanks to the CAP.

Obviously, I'm a bit biased due to that experience, but if anyone asked, I'd say eliminate the CAP (at least in Alaska) and when there's a search to be done, put out a call to all the local commercial operators. They are the real professionals, they know the country, and they know how to fly.

Furthermore, we wouldn't have to pay huge amounts of money to support expensive aircraft and train low time pilots to conduct task intensive searches.

And, maybe the commercial operators would stop to pick a guy up.

I was in the CAP in the late 60's and had a great time. Not much search and rescue, but lots of time in a Super Cub and Beech T-34.... including hours of spins, loops and rolls..!!

Recent observations of local unit is similar to comments above. They do fly the kids a lot... but their flying ability leaves something to be desired... along with their radio use, etc... but that's just a personal opinion and observation. They seem to mean well... but probably not a good use of tax dollars.

When I lived in Washington I was a volunteer in search and rescue. The first time I ran into CAP was on a search with the cadets marching through the would chopping everything in site with machettes. That was my first impression, and I wasn't impressed. We used to make fun at the fly-in when they'd march along and play cops, but if you think about it, kids could be out doing a lot worse stuff.

Later, when I because a pilot, another instructor told me about CAP and I joined the senior squardron in Portland with a friend. My idea was, being involved in SAR and now a pilot I could combine both. Both of us were CFI's, but in the year I was a member down there I couldn't get any of the basic tests and paperwork done, so we couldn't even ride along as observers. There were 3 or 4 guys who did all the flying, even though there were probably 20 active members. They always said they needed more CFI's, but we couldn't get anywhere. It was almost was like a private flying club like others have said.

In October 2001 I moved to Anchorage and transfered to one of the squadrons here. I was finally able to get the basic training and paperwork done, and as of last weekend, finally got all of the requirements done to ride in the plane as an observer. It only took about 3 years. I'm trying to get checked out in the planes but it's hard to find instructors. They recently said they are going to make it a priority to get me and another CFI who just joined checked out to add to the list of available CFIs. The thing to remember though, is it's all volunteers, and everyone has jobs and/or families. So, I try not to get frustrated. There seems to be a lot of peple who join and end up quitting before too long.

Some people do join just because of the cheap flying, but the reality is, it takes so long to get to the point where you can fly a lot of people don't stick around. For some people, CAP is the only flying they do. There is a long process to get checked out in the planes, but that doesn't mean that everyone will be safe, just like anything else. The squadron here is really strict on safety, and all of the planes are well maintained. As long as I've been a member of the squadron up here, it's been obvious that overall people are members because they love to fly and want to help others. And if there is an oppurtunity to fly at an affordable rate in well maintained planes, take it. There is a lot of paperwork, but most of it is there for a reason. Showing that you've been trained, making sure the planes aren't past they inspection times, etc.

Overall I'd say it's a good thing, but like everything else there are gonna be bad examples. There is a lot of paperwork, and it takes forever to get anywhere, but if you look at it as an opportunity to to use a skill you have to help others, and not as cheap flying or a quick way to build hours, I think it's good.

:-? I was active in the CAP during most of the 1950's and into the early 60's. I was a first class mission pilot. Back then we flew airplanes that were owned and maintained by the Air Force. I flew the L-4, L5, L16, L17, and PA18s. Sometime during that time the Air Force gave the airplanes to the CAP and we had to maintain them. I flew many SAR mission in the North Carolina mountains and we found many downed planes including Air Force planes. I know some folks that are in the CAP now and it's not the same. I just came back from flying my Fairchild F-24R to Kitty Hawk and back (from California) and tried to look up some of the folks that I knew back then. I guess they're all dead now or I've forgotton their names. None of the airports look the same either. Both New Bern and Kinston have towers now and nothing looks the same. The New Bern tower asked me if I was familiar with the airport. I told him that I flew from there about 45 years ago and he commented, "well... the river's still in the same place". I've good memories of the CAP in those days but I don't think it's the same now. ...Clyde

CAP Bozoism...

I was active in Utah wing and was a mission pilot, wing director of communications, and formed a wing and squadron Membership Review Committee.... The problem with CAP is that they can't police their own ranks and get rid of the bozos fast enough. The turnover is huge(except for the bozos, who stay forever, and thus cause the huge turnover...)and training is a huge drain on resources.....the regs call out the establishment of membership review committees, and encourage 'discontinueing' memberships for ANY reason....it just doesn't work, though, due to politics. After a while, everone looks at the effort expended vs. the value recieved, minus the frustration of dealing with the bozos, and leaves. Having said that, I've had some great experiences and met many friends through CAP.

I approached the CAP at Eielson AFB several times about joining. Each time I was basically told that I was not welcome. Talking to people that had been members they said if you were not one of the good ole boys you never got to fly. CAP leaves a sour taste in my mouth. I would not recommend them.

Torch

CAP showed up at my home field this spring. They now base 2 c172s and 2 gliders here. Now what the hell are they gonna do with gliders? I'm trying to conjur up an emergency situation where a glider would come in handy, but I just can't. These bozos just pull out on the runway like they own the place, not even at the end, they don't seem to concerned about existing traffic in the pattern. They just announce on unicom then pull out. Then they gotta spend ten minutes on the runway gettin organized before they take off. If any CAP guys from Chesapeake, VA are reading this, your pissin a lot of guys off.
Ken

I think the gliders are usually used for cadets.

removed

Gunny
My thoughts tended toward 50 lbs of lead ballast in the nose. That should keep em out of my hair for awhile
Ken