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Thread: Experimental Cubs & Extreme Stol Devices, Flaps,slats,sl

  1. #81
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    experimental

    Hi David,
    It's good to here about a experimental cub company going after the market. Do you
    have the address or phone # for these peaple. Are they offering any options with
    the kit, such as large flaps, large baggage, or other stol mods. Thanks for your
    imfo and thoughts. Wayne

  2. #82
    PA12driver's Avatar
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    Wayne,

    Steve Tubbs:
    Performance Air
    4919 Aviation Way CALDWELL, ID 83605-8143

    20 455-7400

    Tim

  3. #83
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    exp cub

    Wayne, from what I read in the article you can get just about any mod you want, with several being standard on every kit. Fusalage strakes, vortex gens., 24 gal. tanks, extended bagage, extended flaps(inboard to fusalage) are standard. Wing mods are also available;ext. ailerons, droop tips, etc.! Worth tracking down the latest issue of Northern Pilot, good read.

  4. #84
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    Performance Air cub

    pa12driver, do I see what I think I see on the photo of the PerformanceAir cub (pg. 28,rt. side view). It sure looks as though the tail is twisting enough on take off to wrinkle the fabric just in front of the tail! doesn't look too good what ever is going on there! Whats your take on it ?

  5. #85
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
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    I noticed that too. Hopefully it's just a reflection, but it really does look like wrinkles.

  6. #86
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    exp. cub

    Mark, looking at their fusalage (pg. 27) there doesnt appear to be the weld-in truss or x brace in the tail like Big Lakes or Univairs. With the installation of 180hp wouldnt that present a problem with twist in the tail?

  7. #87

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    delete

  8. #88
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    Flaps

    Looking for info. flaps,
    Would like to hear from anybody that has experance with the to part flaps, like on an
    Otter. Also the slated flap on the Platus Porter. Any info. or thoughts welcome.
    There has been a lot of desighs that worked and some that didn't. I'm allways
    looking for more, thanks. Wayne

  9. #89
    Guest
    Hans, Gurney flaps usually consist of a vertical dam ventral to the trailing edge that has a height ratio of about 2% of the chord. They are pretty well known and work by increasing the circulation, and can increase lift by up to about 20%, but they don't do so on all wings. There is some drag penalty, but it usually isn't substantial. They are sometimes used with high lift S1223 airfoils. Gurney flaps will substantially increase the nose down pitching moment of the airfoil because they substantially increase the static pressure on the aft underside of the wing. On airfoils where they work, they will work with either vg's or drooped leading edges or both. Because they work by increasing the circulation, I'm not sure they will work with leading edge slats. I would speculate that they do. They could probably be safely installed on the trailing edge of flaps, but not on the trailing edge of ailerons because of the increased risk of catastrophic flutter (not to mention erratic aileron forces).
    JimC

  10. #90
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    Flaps

    JimC,
    Sorry been so long, work. I am putting a plane together now for a fellow and we are
    going to use these gurney flaps. It has a Tcraft airfiol on pacer spares and no flaps.
    It has a cub trim system so I don't think will have a shortage of trim control do to the
    pitching moment. Has small eng. and shouldn't weigh over 800 lbs. Rigging the controls
    now and hope to start fabric soon. I will keep you posted on flaps and progress.
    My own plane is starting come together now. The fuse. is welded up and I have the
    twin rudders installed. Starting on the tailfeathers next.
    The 7ac parts that i posted about earlyer are also comeing together. Most of the
    parts and peices we now have so the fun begins. My own and the chump will both
    have the slats. keep it in the air Wayne

  11. #91
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Explain the twin rudders. My mind is picturing two fabric covered rudders via Twin Beech style.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  12. #92
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    Hi Steve,
    the rudders are placed on the top corners,longerons just forward of the tailfeathers.
    they lay out about 12 degrees so they are allways in the slip stream no matter how
    you are plowing through the air. With the slats at slow speeds , below 20 the
    rudder is blanked out with the nose high attitude. You have to use power to keep
    rudder control. Trying to make more of the slow flight posibilitys close to the ground.
    It's not hard to get below 15mph up in the air but want to do this safer at ground
    level. Also layed the rudder posts ahead about 25 degrees so they will be more
    square to the air flow. Have about 50% more fin and 70% more rudder. From a side
    veiw placement some what like F 14 tomcat. Wayne
    Thanks Jonnyo thanked for this post

  13. #93
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Very interesting. Would love to see pictures.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  14. #94
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    pictures

    Steve,
    I don't have a scanner for my comp. and wouldn't now how to use it. I will try to
    get one of my freinds to do it on theres. There are other pics. I think would be of
    interest too. Wayne

  15. #95
    PA12driver's Avatar
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    Hello Wayne!

    Got the new "test" 31" radial tires on the 12 now and really like the improvement in both the wing performance and the tires! The weather finally gave us (a) day of sun so Lonnie and a bunch of us flew today. I got my "temp" mount for the video camera set up today and shot an hour or so! I am going to make a few changes and then try some more! Send all the pictures you want, I will post them and return!

    Keep it slow!

    Tim

  16. #96
    FlipFlop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PA12driver
    Hello Wayne!

    Got the new "test" 31" radial tires on the 12 now and really like the improvement in both the wing performance and the tires! Tim
    Tim, I'm missing something here... The wing performance is mo' better because why, increased AOA?...

  17. #97
    PA12driver's Avatar
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    Cuby,

    Sorry about that? Wayne and I checked the wing Washout while he was here and found it to be excessive, re-rigged it to best performance and safety! Also the added height of the 31's and their lessened rolling resistance made a significant difference. Most impressive is the lack of cupping of the tire, giving much evener braking. (Note) the Bias tires don't do this cupping "badly" unless run at minimal air pressure for soft terrain.

    I am doing comprehensive testing for Bushwheel and will give more detail in a later report.

    Tim

  18. #98
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    In other words they cut him a hell-uva deal because he is so vocal on this site. That Wup is a smart cookie. He knew Tim would like them.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  19. #99
    Guest
    re-rigged it to best performance and safety
    Is this different than whats called for in Piper SM No. 8?

  20. #100
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    tires

    Advertisement is advertisement no matter how you get it! I'm jealous. Wayne

  21. #101

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    Gurneu Flaps.

    Jerry and Jim C,

    Sorry for not responding - have been away. I see that you have the theories of the Gurney flap under control - even started a separate post on the topic. Found some info on the net under : www.aviationtoday.com/reports/rotorwing/

    Love to see your new STOL plane, Wayne!

    Hans



  22. #102
    PA12driver's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve Pierce
    In other words they cut him a hell-uva deal because he is so vocal on this site. That Wup is a smart cookie. He knew Tim would like them.
    It takes a 'seller and a buyer' to make a business work! They do have a great product, are great to work with and I will do all I can for anyone that finds value in what I can offer? I could get vocal about husky's too? perhaps Matt will send me his for testing purposes??? (a come on Matt)

    Tim

  23. #103
    Guest
    re-rigged it to best performance and safety
    If your aircraft is not rigged per Piper Specs you are operating outside the Type Certificate and your Airworthiness Certificate is void.

  24. #104
    Jerry Burr's Avatar
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    No Signature.

    Hi Guest. What a totally brilliant view. I'm sure no one else could have possibly thought of that. Jerry.

  25. #105
    PA12driver's Avatar
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    Am to assume that the "guest" is an expert? What my post was to imply was that the rigging was checked and set "correctly". Trust me with over 100 years of cub experience between Wayne and myself and Jerry the Saftey and performance is within the specifications originated by Piper and the STC suppliers of the the Wing Type/mods that are installed on my "Legal" a/c.

    I would suggest that "Guest", you should register on the site?? and put your credentials in your profile? This could add bit of credibility to your posts?? (just a thought for you to consider)

    Tim

  26. #106
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    Mama

    Be nice Jerry, he mite go home and tell mama.

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    [delete

  28. #108
    PA12driver's Avatar
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    Diggler, I should have known it was you!! I respect your knowlege, especially your ability to "light a fire" and spark a debate!

    As for posting as a 'guest', I have inadvertently done the same, (usually after cleaning out the "temp files and cookies" from my computer, the "form fill in' for username/PW for internet log-in's get deleted evidently? Then you have to log in and and check the ol box again??

    As far as rigging goes, there are a lot of "A/P's and IA's that don't know how to rig a cub, especially when the fuselages have been wrecked, repaird, modified, along with the mods done to wings, flaps, ailerons etc. etc. (I am often lost in it all too!) that is why I rely on guys like Jerry, Wayne, Denny M. and others that have been working the Cub types for eons!

    What a great site we have here for the sharing of info! I for one am pretty conservative when it comes to experimentation (lacking an engineering degree)

    Welcome back as a Member! (obviously being a 'guest is not safe'.

    Tim

  29. #109
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    Rigging

    Diggler,
    No disrespect intended, but you mite have asked if the plane was rigged wrong in
    the first place. You could be taken to Anch. on any given day and be shown a few
    dozen PA 12,14,18 and J3s that are not rigged perfectly to the book. I a'm not saying
    this is good just the way it is. I think the FAA is right to bring this up. I have reworked
    a few I couldn't beleave somone would be flying. Sorry for the pun if it bothers
    any one. Wayne

  30. #110
    StewartB
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    Tim,
    If I remember right, the washout on a 12 is 1 1/2" or so. How was yours out of rig? Too much or too little washout, or something else altogether? You have spar-to-spar metal leading edges don't you? How easy was it to reset the washout?
    SB

  31. #111

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    cub kit

    my friend just bought one of the kits that was in northern pilot and it is made of 4130 chromemoly the kit is very impressive and the wings look awesome ,you can get 72 gallons in the wings ,4 tanks that are really neatly installed also it has a long list of mods.ps hey guys make sure you have atlee;s safety cables on your gear top and bottom because i just tested them the other day when landing on rough ice the tabs for the cabane broke out of the frame after i got looking these tabs were cracked about halfway through also I can put you in touch with the people who builds this kit in Canada ,it would really be an advantage buying direct because your U.S. dollar is really strong against our weak Canadian peso,but then again our great fearless leader in ottawa is also weak and gutless. you can call Ray @ 306 449 2452 for more info. thanks for your time

  32. #112
    PA12driver's Avatar
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    SB,

    The factory washout is still 2.5degrees, the confusion exists when a mechanic insists on trying to "level the fuselage". There has been a lot of discussion on this topic in other areas. The fact is I had about 3.2 degrees of Washout! This coupled with the fact that I have extended wings and "hottips" the actual washout to the end of the 'flying surface was much greater then the "manufacture" suggests.

    Yes I do have long leading edges. We leveled the wing then checked the washout. The fuselage is going for a ride (connected to the wing where ever it ends up) after 56 yrs of rebuilding, modifing, etc.

    My plane flys hands free, is very stable in bad air and stall characteristics are predictable! only thing lacking is better weather! (are the bears out yet?? (the four legged ones) not the russian bears with props!

    Tim

  33. #113

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    wayne or jerry or any one else in the how does it do that mode, look at this: www.X-zylo.com, its a less than an once piece of plastic that can possibly be thrown two football fields. I bought one and can only get it to 60-70 yds, arm isnt like it use to be. they claim it produces its own lift and I dont have a clue how maybe a bunch of these could be mounted on the wings?

  34. #114
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    Re: Leading edge

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayne Mackey
    Mark , This is good question . This is something that went through the area of Alaska
    I lived in during the 70's. I have done one of these mods my self and around a few
    others. They look good, but we didn't gain a thing except weight. And labor. On the
    one I did we lost some take off perfomance. I can't say it dosn't work for some, But I
    would spend my time and money somewhere else. A while back there was a picture
    of a C.C. yellow cub on the front of a magazine that showed the top of the plane in
    flight and all the fabric between the ribs was balooned up to the shape they are
    after with the added leading edge. So when you are under a positive load it appears
    to me there isn't any need for this mod. My opinion only by what i have seen.
    Wayne
    Looks like the fabric is balloning up on this cub also.

  35. #115
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Kase, there was some discussion of this being a good reason why the ext. LE skin was doing nothing.

    NIce to see you found a photo of it.

    DAVE

  36. #116

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    Have any of you guys tried tip slots like the spread primaries on a buzzard's wing?
    Likes SpainCub liked this post

  37. #117

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    Steve P, it was good to meet you at Colonial today. Sort of gave me a "it's a small world" feeling.

    Best wishes,
    JimC

  38. #118
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    wings

    Thanks kase'
    I was wondering if this page was ever going to get a hit again. Do you think in
    your cub picture maybe they have leading edges all the way back to the trailing edge.

  39. #119

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    STOL Recipe

    Wayne & Company...

    I'm heading towards building an experimental Producer this winter (with Steve Bryant) and have been doing alot of research on what is the right combination of STOL devices that can be incorporated without dropping cruise much below 100mph. This has been a great thread, glad to see it's active again (need all the help I can get). Additionally, hoping to incorporate STOL components that do not require substantially high nose up attitude as a pacer (currently flying one) has enough visibility problems on its own...here is the current direction...

    1) Keep it LIGHT
    2) Lots of HP, XP360plus, maybe a piston change in spite of shorter of TBO
    3) Tuned exhaust
    3) Standard Piper wing OR Thicker chord wing, spans both about 38'-9"?
    4) Seems like dropping the rear wing fitting is a good thing to get AOA w/out raising the nose?
    5) Extended gear
    6) Would like to incorporate drooping ailerons, is there a resource for drawings of this mod? Is it typically connected to Flaps?

    Any thoughts, additions, deletions all input would be great...
    thx, Josh Pepperd

  40. #120
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Josh, nice to see you show up here again.

    Good comments. I'm sure you already have some answers for them.

    One comment:

    The over-the-nose visibility on the Pacer will be the one "liability" to your project.

    If you can fix that, you might end up with the perfect slow-hauler (lands slow, but will haul alot, even bulky stuff).

    Glad to hear you're near to the road toward what you need for your mission!

    If you want the ultimate for slow, with not much cruise detriment, talk to Wayne about his slats and droop ailerons.

    Cheers, DAVE

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