Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Explain the twin rudders. My mind is picturing two fabric covered rudders via Twin Beech style.
Experimental Cubs & Extreme Stol Devices, Flaps,slats,sl
- Thread starter Wayne Mackey
- Start date
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
Hi Steve,
the rudders are placed on the top corners,longerons just forward of the tailfeathers.
they lay out about 12 degrees so they are allways in the slip stream no matter how
you are plowing through the air. With the slats at slow speeds , below 20 the
rudder is blanked out with the nose high attitude. You have to use power to keep
rudder control. Trying to make more of the slow flight posibilitys close to the ground.
It's not hard to get below 15mph up in the air but want to do this safer at ground
level. Also layed the rudder posts ahead about 25 degrees so they will be more
square to the air flow. Have about 50% more fin and 70% more rudder. From a side
veiw placement some what like F 14 tomcat. Wayne
the rudders are placed on the top corners,longerons just forward of the tailfeathers.
they lay out about 12 degrees so they are allways in the slip stream no matter how
you are plowing through the air. With the slats at slow speeds , below 20 the
rudder is blanked out with the nose high attitude. You have to use power to keep
rudder control. Trying to make more of the slow flight posibilitys close to the ground.
It's not hard to get below 15mph up in the air but want to do this safer at ground
level. Also layed the rudder posts ahead about 25 degrees so they will be more
square to the air flow. Have about 50% more fin and 70% more rudder. From a side
veiw placement some what like F 14 tomcat. Wayne
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Very interesting. Would love to see pictures.
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
pictures
Steve,
I don't have a scanner for my comp. and wouldn't now how to use it. I will try to
get one of my freinds to do it on theres. There are other pics. I think would be of
interest too. Wayne
Steve,
I don't have a scanner for my comp. and wouldn't now how to use it. I will try to
get one of my freinds to do it on theres. There are other pics. I think would be of
interest too. Wayne
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Hello Wayne!
Got the new "test" 31" radial tires on the 12 now and really like the improvement in both the wing performance and the tires! The weather finally gave us (a) day of sun so Lonnie and a bunch of us flew today. I got my "temp" mount for the video camera set up today and shot an hour or so! I am going to make a few changes and then try some more! Send all the pictures you want, I will post them and return!
Keep it slow!
Tim
Got the new "test" 31" radial tires on the 12 now and really like the improvement in both the wing performance and the tires! The weather finally gave us (a) day of sun so Lonnie and a bunch of us flew today. I got my "temp" mount for the video camera set up today and shot an hour or so! I am going to make a few changes and then try some more! Send all the pictures you want, I will post them and return!
Keep it slow!
Tim
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Cuby,
Sorry about that? Wayne and I checked the wing Washout while he was here and found it to be excessive, re-rigged it to best performance and safety! Also the added height of the 31's and their lessened rolling resistance made a significant difference. Most impressive is the lack of cupping of the tire, giving much evener braking. (Note) the Bias tires don't do this cupping "badly" unless run at minimal air pressure for soft terrain.
I am doing comprehensive testing for Bushwheel and will give more detail in a later report.
Tim
Sorry about that? Wayne and I checked the wing Washout while he was here and found it to be excessive, re-rigged it to best performance and safety! Also the added height of the 31's and their lessened rolling resistance made a significant difference. Most impressive is the lack of cupping of the tire, giving much evener braking. (Note) the Bias tires don't do this cupping "badly" unless run at minimal air pressure for soft terrain.
I am doing comprehensive testing for Bushwheel and will give more detail in a later report.
Tim
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
In other words they cut him a hell-uva deal because he is so vocal on this site. That Wup is a smart cookie. He knew Tim would like them.
G
Guest
Is this different than whats called for in Piper SM No. 8?
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
tires
Advertisement is advertisement no matter how you get it! I'm jealous. Wayne
Advertisement is advertisement no matter how you get it! I'm jealous. Wayne
Gurneu Flaps.
Jerry and Jim C,
Sorry for not responding - have been away. I see that you have the theories of the Gurney flap under control - even started a separate post on the topic. Found some info on the net under : www.aviationtoday.com/reports/rotorwing/
Love to see your new STOL plane, Wayne!
Hans
Jerry and Jim C,
Sorry for not responding - have been away. I see that you have the theories of the Gurney flap under control - even started a separate post on the topic. Found some info on the net under : www.aviationtoday.com/reports/rotorwing/
Love to see your new STOL plane, Wayne!
Hans
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Steve Pierce said:
It takes a 'seller and a buyer' to make a business work! They do have a great product, are great to work with and I will do all I can for anyone that finds value in what I can offer? I could get vocal about husky's too? perhaps Matt will send me his for testing purposes??? (a come on Matt)
Tim
G
Guest
If your aircraft is not rigged per Piper Specs you are operating outside the Type Certificate and your Airworthiness Certificate is void.
Jerry Burr
MEMBER
Sedro Woolley, Washington.
No Signature.
Hi Guest. What a totally brilliant view. I'm sure no one else could have possibly thought of that.
Jerry.
Hi Guest. What a totally brilliant view. I'm sure no one else could have possibly thought of that.
Jerry.
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Am to assume that the "guest" is an expert? What my post was to imply was that the rigging was checked and set "correctly". Trust me with over 100 years of cub experience between Wayne and myself and Jerry the Saftey and performance is within the specifications originated by Piper and the STC suppliers of the the Wing Type/mods that are installed on my "Legal" a/c.
I would suggest that "Guest", you should register on the site?? and put your credentials in your profile? This could add bit of credibility to your posts?? (just a thought for you to consider)
Tim
I would suggest that "Guest", you should register on the site?? and put your credentials in your profile? This could add bit of credibility to your posts?? (just a thought for you to consider)
Tim
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
Mama
Be nice Jerry, he mite go home and tell mama.
Be nice Jerry, he mite go home and tell mama.
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
Diggler, I should have known it was you!! I respect your knowlege, especially your ability to "light a fire" and spark a debate!
As for posting as a 'guest', I have inadvertently done the same, (usually after cleaning out the "temp files and cookies" from my computer, the "form fill in' for username/PW for internet log-in's get deleted evidently? Then you have to log in and and check the ol box again??
As far as rigging goes, there are a lot of "A/P's and IA's that don't know how to rig a cub, especially when the fuselages have been wrecked, repaird, modified, along with the mods done to wings, flaps, ailerons etc. etc. (I am often lost in it all too!) that is why I rely on guys like Jerry, Wayne, Denny M. and others that have been working the Cub types for eons!
What a great site we have here for the sharing of info! I for one am pretty conservative when it comes to experimentation (lacking an engineering degree)
Welcome back as a Member! (obviously being a 'guest is not safe'.
Tim
As for posting as a 'guest', I have inadvertently done the same, (usually after cleaning out the "temp files and cookies" from my computer, the "form fill in' for username/PW for internet log-in's get deleted evidently? Then you have to log in and and check the ol box again??
As far as rigging goes, there are a lot of "A/P's and IA's that don't know how to rig a cub, especially when the fuselages have been wrecked, repaird, modified, along with the mods done to wings, flaps, ailerons etc. etc. (I am often lost in it all too!) that is why I rely on guys like Jerry, Wayne, Denny M. and others that have been working the Cub types for eons!
What a great site we have here for the sharing of info! I for one am pretty conservative when it comes to experimentation (lacking an engineering degree)
Welcome back as a Member! (obviously being a 'guest is not safe'.
Tim
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
Rigging
Diggler,
No disrespect intended, but you mite have asked if the plane was rigged wrong in
the first place. You could be taken to Anch. on any given day and be shown a few
dozen PA 12,14,18 and J3s that are not rigged perfectly to the book. I a'm not saying
this is good just the way it is. I think the FAA is right to bring this up. I have reworked
a few I couldn't beleave somone would be flying. Sorry for the pun if it bothers
any one. Wayne
Diggler,
No disrespect intended, but you mite have asked if the plane was rigged wrong in
the first place. You could be taken to Anch. on any given day and be shown a few
dozen PA 12,14,18 and J3s that are not rigged perfectly to the book. I a'm not saying
this is good just the way it is. I think the FAA is right to bring this up. I have reworked
a few I couldn't beleave somone would be flying. Sorry for the pun if it bothers
any one. Wayne
S
StewartB
Tim,
If I remember right, the washout on a 12 is 1 1/2" or so. How was yours out of rig? Too much or too little washout, or something else altogether? You have spar-to-spar metal leading edges don't you? How easy was it to reset the washout?
SB
If I remember right, the washout on a 12 is 1 1/2" or so. How was yours out of rig? Too much or too little washout, or something else altogether? You have spar-to-spar metal leading edges don't you? How easy was it to reset the washout?
SB
Raymond Blerot
Registered User
cub kit
my friend just bought one of the kits that was in northern pilot and it is made of 4130 chromemoly the kit is very impressive and the wings look awesome ,you can get 72 gallons in the wings ,4 tanks that are really neatly installed also it has a long list of mods.ps hey guys make sure you have atlee;s safety cables on your gear top and bottom because i just tested them the other day when landing on rough ice the tabs for the cabane broke out of the frame after i got looking these tabs were cracked about halfway through also I can put you in touch with the people who builds this kit in Canada ,it would really be an advantage buying direct because your U.S. dollar is really strong against our weak Canadian peso,but then again our great fearless leader in ottawa is also weak and gutless. you can call Ray @ 306 449 2452 for more info. thanks for your time
my friend just bought one of the kits that was in northern pilot and it is made of 4130 chromemoly the kit is very impressive and the wings look awesome ,you can get 72 gallons in the wings ,4 tanks that are really neatly installed also it has a long list of mods.ps hey guys make sure you have atlee;s safety cables on your gear top and bottom because i just tested them the other day when landing on rough ice the tabs for the cabane broke out of the frame after i got looking these tabs were cracked about halfway through also I can put you in touch with the people who builds this kit in Canada ,it would really be an advantage buying direct because your U.S. dollar is really strong against our weak Canadian peso,but then again our great fearless leader in ottawa is also weak and gutless. you can call Ray @ 306 449 2452 for more info. thanks for your time
PA12driver
Registered User
Battle Ground, WA
SB,
The factory washout is still 2.5degrees, the confusion exists when a mechanic insists on trying to "level the fuselage". There has been a lot of discussion on this topic in other areas. The fact is I had about 3.2 degrees of Washout! This coupled with the fact that I have extended wings and "hottips" the actual washout to the end of the 'flying surface was much greater then the "manufacture" suggests.
Yes I do have long leading edges. We leveled the wing then checked the washout. The fuselage is going for a ride (connected to the wing where ever it ends up) after 56 yrs of rebuilding, modifing, etc.
My plane flys hands free, is very stable in bad air and stall characteristics are predictable! only thing lacking is better weather! (are the bears out yet?? (the four legged ones) not the russian bears with props!
Tim
The factory washout is still 2.5degrees, the confusion exists when a mechanic insists on trying to "level the fuselage". There has been a lot of discussion on this topic in other areas. The fact is I had about 3.2 degrees of Washout! This coupled with the fact that I have extended wings and "hottips" the actual washout to the end of the 'flying surface was much greater then the "manufacture" suggests.
Yes I do have long leading edges. We leveled the wing then checked the washout. The fuselage is going for a ride (connected to the wing where ever it ends up) after 56 yrs of rebuilding, modifing, etc.
My plane flys hands free, is very stable in bad air and stall characteristics are predictable! only thing lacking is better weather! (are the bears out yet?? (the four legged ones) not the russian bears with props!
Tim
wayne or jerry or any one else in the how does it do that mode, look at this: www.X-zylo.com, its a less than an once piece of plastic that can possibly be thrown two football fields. I bought one and can only get it to 60-70 yds, arm isnt like it use to be. they claim it produces its own lift and I dont have a clue how maybe a bunch of these could be mounted on the wings?
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Kase, there was some discussion of this being a good reason why the ext. LE skin was doing nothing.
NIce to see you found a photo of it.
DAVE
NIce to see you found a photo of it.
DAVE
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
wings
Thanks kase'
I was wondering if this page was ever going to get a hit again. Do you think in
your cub picture maybe they have leading edges all the way back to the trailing edge.
Thanks kase'
I was wondering if this page was ever going to get a hit again. Do you think in
your cub picture maybe they have leading edges all the way back to the trailing edge.
CaptAmerica
Registered User
Anchorage AK
STOL Recipe
Wayne & Company...
I'm heading towards building an experimental Producer this winter (with Steve Bryant) and have been doing alot of research on what is the right combination of STOL devices that can be incorporated without dropping cruise much below 100mph. This has been a great thread, glad to see it's active again (need all the help I can get). Additionally, hoping to incorporate STOL components that do not require substantially high nose up attitude as a pacer (currently flying one) has enough visibility problems on its own...here is the current direction...
1) Keep it LIGHT
2) Lots of HP, XP360plus, maybe a piston change in spite of shorter of TBO
3) Tuned exhaust
3) Standard Piper wing OR Thicker chord wing, spans both about 38'-9"?
4) Seems like dropping the rear wing fitting is a good thing to get AOA w/out raising the nose?
5) Extended gear
6) Would like to incorporate drooping ailerons, is there a resource for drawings of this mod? Is it typically connected to Flaps?
Any thoughts, additions, deletions all input would be great...
thx, Josh Pepperd
Wayne & Company...
I'm heading towards building an experimental Producer this winter (with Steve Bryant) and have been doing alot of research on what is the right combination of STOL devices that can be incorporated without dropping cruise much below 100mph. This has been a great thread, glad to see it's active again (need all the help I can get). Additionally, hoping to incorporate STOL components that do not require substantially high nose up attitude as a pacer (currently flying one) has enough visibility problems on its own...here is the current direction...
1) Keep it LIGHT
2) Lots of HP, XP360plus, maybe a piston change in spite of shorter of TBO
3) Tuned exhaust
3) Standard Piper wing OR Thicker chord wing, spans both about 38'-9"?
4) Seems like dropping the rear wing fitting is a good thing to get AOA w/out raising the nose?
5) Extended gear
6) Would like to incorporate drooping ailerons, is there a resource for drawings of this mod? Is it typically connected to Flaps?
Any thoughts, additions, deletions all input would be great...
thx, Josh Pepperd
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Josh, nice to see you show up here again.
Good comments. I'm sure you already have some answers for them.
One comment:
The over-the-nose visibility on the Pacer will be the one "liability" to your project.
If you can fix that, you might end up with the perfect slow-hauler (lands slow, but will haul alot, even bulky stuff).
Glad to hear you're near to the road toward what you need for your mission!
If you want the ultimate for slow, with not much cruise detriment, talk to Wayne about his slats and droop ailerons.
Cheers, DAVE
Good comments. I'm sure you already have some answers for them.
One comment:
The over-the-nose visibility on the Pacer will be the one "liability" to your project.
If you can fix that, you might end up with the perfect slow-hauler (lands slow, but will haul alot, even bulky stuff).
Glad to hear you're near to the road toward what you need for your mission!
If you want the ultimate for slow, with not much cruise detriment, talk to Wayne about his slats and droop ailerons.
Cheers, DAVE
