Page 1 of 11 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 401

Thread: Experimental Cubs & Extreme Stol Devices, Flaps,slats,sl

  1. #1
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Experimental Cubs & Extreme Stol Devices, Flaps,slats,sl

    I would like to get a thead going for the exper. cubs and such that deals with all the
    products available out there,what has been done, what is being worked on and
    what has been the gained or lost. I build several different mods. and would like to
    see what else is avalible. I'm always interested in new ideas and ways. There is
    always a science and art to the building and flying of this sort.
    Happy days on the drawing board. Wayne

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like
    Yes, let's hear what people are building - don't be shy. There was a posting with some replies last spring where people talked about the Dakota Coyote and its slatted wing (yours, Wayne?) but I cannot find it anymore on this site. Why was it removed?
    It is -10F and we got a foot of snow the last few days. Skis are going on shortly.

    Hans

  3. #3
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Super stol

    Hans, Yes the Dakota Coyote 1 and 2 have my slats and droopy ailerons on them
    and #3 has no slat but has very large flaps with droop ailerons. Jerry Burr has
    photos of some of this and I will try to get them on this thread. Also super long gear
    with the axles moved ahead so we can get on the brakes and not tip up so easy.
    These are on Denny Martel's cub along with the slats. Wayne

  4. #4
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Spoilers on cub

    I'm trying to collect information on spoiler devices on cub type airfoils used both in
    decent and roll. I'm installing them on my own plane and they will be linked with my
    ailerons. looking at placement and size? Sumner Putmon had them on his pa 14
    in the mid 70's and they were very affective. Thanks for any help or idea's.

    Wayne

  5. #5
    T.J.'s Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Alaska
    Posts
    3,211
    Post Thanks / Like
    Wayne:
    Just a thought. Wonder how the speed brakes STCed for Cessnas would work? They are flush until you push button, then they flop up into the airstream just like the ones on the Airliners.

  6. #6

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    1,859
    Post Thanks / Like
    The Taylorcraft L-2 and the glider version of the J-3 (the TG- both had spoilers.
    I have heard of several restored L-2's that still have them and there are only 2 TG-8's still in existance (in glider configuration) that I know of. One has been restored and is in a museum, the other is in bare bones condition owned by Steve Butler of Souix City, IA.
    I have seen Steve's TG-8 and it only has the incomplete remains of the spoiler system still installed.

    John

  7. #7
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Spoilers

    The spoilers on Sumners 14 as I remember were about 4 feet in from the tip and
    hinged up right behind the spar. They were about 4" x 24" and came up in one
    quick movement. The first 1" of up travel made lift, so the quick pass though this
    portion of travel was needed. They would give great desent and when released
    instant recovery. Wayne

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Apr 2002
    Location
    Wardner BC CANADA
    Posts
    30
    Post Thanks / Like

    Spoilers

    The Wagaero 2+2 which is a modified Pa 14 has in their plans the building, placement and rigging of spoilers. Dale

  9. #9
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks Dale, More like this
    I had some pics. a while back showing a yellow SC with full span flaps and spiolers
    just in front of flap. No info though. Wayne

  10. #10
    Cubus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,793
    Post Thanks / Like

    spoilers

    John,

    In the L-2M we got flying again last summer, the spoilers had been removed. I think when they certified them for civilian use the spoilers had to come off.

    MD said that he thought he could get approval to reinstall 'em. The only concern I would have is that the design is 100% reliable. When I want them off - they better work and pronto!

    Brad

  11. #11
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Spoilers

    Thanks Brad, I have the same worrys. The ones I flew with on the pa14 had a sping
    return and i don't know how much tention required. Wayne

  12. #12

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Port Washington, Wisconsin
    Posts
    104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Spoilers

    The Wag-Aero plans show two 16inX3-1/2in spoilers per wing with the spoiler attach brackets 6-1/8in back from the front spar. One each top and bottom chord, linked. They're not too specific about spring tension as the plans say "Return Spring, Standard Hardware Store Item".

  13. #13
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    spoilers

    Thanks Russ, They must be working as an air brake too with the bottom set.
    I have to have mine farther forward to work at spoiling the lift caused by the
    leading edge slat. Do you know if the 2+2 uses them in the roll process like the
    ailerons. Wayne

  14. #14

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Port Washington, Wisconsin
    Posts
    104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Spoilers

    The 2+2 uses the spoilers for slowing and braking not roll assist. A real good example of roll assist spoilerons is the setup Byron Root uses on the Sherpa.

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Aug 2002
    Location
    Oklahoma
    Posts
    174
    Post Thanks / Like
    A friend of mine just bought a set of those strap on slats. Will report on the results when he gets flying with them.

  16. #16

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Charlotte, NC
    Posts
    1,859
    Post Thanks / Like
    Brad,

    The last thing I want to do is make an issue of something that is of little relevence to this thread but...

    The Taylorcraft L-2M owned by my friend Terry Fisher has operating spoilers. Being a pilot for UslessAirways and the uncertanties therein Terry advertised the plane on Barnstormers (posting Dec. 7, 2002 with pictures) and the ad verifies that the plane has operating spoilers.

    John

  17. #17
    SuperCub MD's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2002
    Location
    Collins, Wisconsin
    Posts
    1,346
    Post Thanks / Like
    Wayne, The L2M has spoilers about mid-wing, near the main spar, activated by a level under the left side of the instrument panel. Originally, when the L2M's were decommitioned, the spoilers were deactivated, however I think some have had them reapproved. These were pop up glider style spoilers. You may also want to look at current use gliders. Most, if not all, have some type of spoiler system, you may get some ideas there. The pneumatic speed brakes used on Moonies, and other go-fast stuff may be worth a look also. My big concern with spoilers of anykind is ice and snow freezing them up, rain always gets in. The elements play hell with them, and they can be a real pain in the ass, maintenance wise.

  18. #18
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mark, Thanks for the info. I spent many years in alaska and have respect for the ice
    problem. Worked in the comm. fish boat industry for years with alum. and ice
    and came up with recessed hinges that have nylon bushings. The spoiler will not
    make contact on any surface. Wayne ps. really like your paint on cub.

  19. #19
    Tim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Petersburgh, NY
    Posts
    3,465
    Post Thanks / Like
    Wayne, I have spoilers on my 2+2 and here's my opinon. To use them for decent to land you have to be 10 miles faster than without them being deployed. When you flair to land you are 10 miles an hour faster and use up more runway. I can come down just as fast if I put the plane into a full slip, 10 miles an hour slower with no spoilers. When I flare or stick it on the mains I'm able to stop shorter. I do use them 0nce in a while if I screw up and have to much altitude on final, I just put them on for a few seconds to lose some. The only other use they have is taxeing in the wind, they spoil some lift.

    Tim
    2+2

  20. #20
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Spoilers

    Tim the pa14 I flew in the 70s with the spoilers had the leading edge slats. It didn't
    have a stall, your sink rate would just increase as you went slower. To slow and
    you just lost directoinal controll, left or right. The nose didn't fall off. You would set
    up a power on aproach at about 30 mph. Thats a little nose high. You wouldn't
    change power or attitude to desend, just use the spoilers for drop control. At about
    10 feet from the ground let go of spoilers, pull the nose up, a blast of power in one
    smooth motion and you were on solid. Tim the pa12driver can confirm this. It was
    quite a ride! I have never used spoilers with out slats. Thanks for the in put, it
    sounds like with out the slat you could cause the wing to stall at lower speeds.
    Do you have flaps on the 2+2. Wayne

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like

    Wing comparison.

    Assume that we that we have a 150/160 Cub at 1600lbs, standard flaps & ailerons, no special wingtips.
    We enter the following variables:

    Stock wing

    Stock wing w. VGs

    Wing w. Leading
    Edge Cuff

    Wing + LEC + VGs

    Slotted Dakota wing

    Wing w. full Leading
    Edge Slats

    For each of the wings, what will be:
    a) Power on stall w. flaps, mph
    b) Power off stall
    c) Safe manouvering speed, level flight

    Let's get some numbers! What have we missed out on?


    Hans


  22. #22
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like
    Hans, We haven't done any formal testing as you call it. The slat does improve the
    stol performance with out question. Some on take off, quite a lot on landing, but the
    biggest gain is in slow speed manouvering safety. The owner of the #2 Dakota
    Cyote told me that he and a freind with med. fuel were flying with gps. at 17 mph.
    in good control. I flew #1 and it was about the same. Loid Wever owner of #2
    said he could be contacted for info. Like all things there is price, the slower you
    fly the more the wind will affect you. You wiil lose a cupple miles in cruise. To
    make full use of these toy's there is a leaning curve. I don't want to go fast but i do love
    to play. I started this a long time ago so i could hunt and fish alone. Wayne

  23. #23

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like
    Thanks for the info, Wayne. I was just trying to get more people going on this but I realize that there are only a handful on this site that fly experimental Cubs. Jerry must have some numbers...... My Bushmaster with a leading edge cuff will fly every bit as slow as the PA-18 that I used to have.
    I am trying to convince a friend of mine that is building an experimental Supercub right now to look into slats. He is putting a Riblett wing on his Cub.

    Whatever happened to the Goddard liftkit (slatkit) for the PA-18?

    Hans

  24. #24
    Jerry Burr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Sedro Woolley, Washington.
    Posts
    700
    Post Thanks / Like

    Goddard.

    Hi Hans. Check the previous post by Cubdriver, dated Jan 27. Jerry.

  25. #25
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Prodject Chump

    I know this isn't a cub but it does have a tail wheel. And i'm shore some will be
    interested. A freind of mine has parts of a 7ac champ and an 0235 lyc. I am helping
    him build an experimental. we have new alum. cub spars for the wings. Moving the
    ailerons all the way to the tip. This way we will have room for a 9 or 10 ft. flap.
    we will put 18 type gear on 8 " longer than standard to gain attitude at three point.
    The elevaters are larger and balanced. And my favorite part it will have slats.
    He has been talking to Lycon about pumping up his 0235 lyc. I will keep you posted
    as it comes along. Fly low fly slow Wayne

  26. #26

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Port Washington, Wisconsin
    Posts
    104
    Post Thanks / Like

    Riblett wing

    Quote Originally Posted by Super 22
    I am trying to convince a friend of mine that is building an experimental Supercub right now to look into slats. He is putting a Riblett wing on his Cub.



    Hans
    I've been trying for some time now to find out how the Riblett GAU613 flies but so far haven't been able to get in touch with anyone who has used it. Which Riblett airfoil is your friend using?

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like
    Russ, my friend is using the wide Riblett GAU613-66" wing on his Cub. He had to move the wing attachment bracket on the fuselage down so the wing would "fit" the airframe. The plane is not flying yet. Another builder that I've heard of here is using a Riblett wing on a Bushmaster.

    Hans

  28. #28
    Cubus Maximus's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    1,793
    Post Thanks / Like

    Dakota Cub Slat

    Wayne,

    Have you been following Dakota Cub's evolution of their slotted wing? They are coming out with a slotted - squared off PA-18 wing. It will have the stock 102 inch aileron pushed out to the end (rather than the cut down one) and extended 90 inch flap to the fuse.

    That REALLY sounds interesting!

    Brad

    I got to fly in the Soldotna based slotted Cub and was impressed. This new one peaks my interest even more (the more aileron the better in a Cub)

  29. #29
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Dakota cub

    Brad, yes i try to keep up on all i can with any of the slot or slat stuff. the last set of
    my slats that i installed went on a set of wings built by Dakota Cub with these big
    flaps and the ailerons out to the tip on an exstended wing. I beleave this was there
    first set and they went on an expermental. Very well built wing. I beleave this is the
    flap system you say they are now putting on there sloted wing. Wayne

  30. #30
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Dakota cub

    Brad, yes i try to keep up on all i can with any of the slot or slat stuff. the last set of
    my slats that i installed went on a set of wings built by Dakota Cub with these big
    flaps and the ailerons out to the tip on an exstended wing. I beleave this was there
    first set and they went on an expermental. Very well built wing. I beleave this is the
    flap system you say they are now putting on there sloted wing. Wayne

  31. #31

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like
    Wayne, I looked at the pictures , #34-37 of the Dakota Coyote on "Supercubs Galore". Your slats "fold", being controlled from the driver's seat? What are the advantages / disadvantages of this design to the fixed slat, see picture #672 (slotwing 310) and the Sumner Puttmon fixed slat? What is the cruise speed penalty with a fixed slat?

    Hans

  32. #32
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Slats

    Hans, The slats don't fold, all they do is hinge up to open from the pivet point and
    weathervain back down to the wing do to forward airpressure at cruise. They
    are free floating on pivet point. Of corse there are stop limitors. The first slats I
    had were copys of Sumner's. They worked fairly well but hurt your cruise about
    8 to 10 mph. I changed the shape and gained 2 or3 mph. Later I made them lie
    down in cruise and gained 2 or 3 more. The big differents between slot and slat
    is with the slat you are gaining wing area, mine about 30 sq ft. Wayne

  33. #33

    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    BC, Canada
    Posts
    43
    Post Thanks / Like
    Wayne, my Bushmaster with a Cub Wing/leading edge cuff does quite well. However, I feel that with your slat system and a spoiler we are flying at 20mph. That spells some safe flying to me. Could your slat system be adopted to a Riblett wing that a friend of mine is building? All of this is of course only applicable to experimental Cubs, I can sense the frustrations from some true Cub drivers, limited by FAA and STCs.

    Fly safe and have fun!

    Hans

  34. #34
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Slats

    Hans, Yes i think the slat will work with any practical airfoil. It is attached to what
    looks like cub aileron hangers that bolt to the spar. A helio has a wing that is not
    that different from ribblet or tailorcraft. Even most of the big jets. It just keeps the
    air laminaled to the wing at lower speeds. The spoilers work well with the slot or
    slat because you don't have to change attitude to desend. The angle of attack is
    where you get the slow speed. My self I am going to link the spoilers with my
    ailerons. They are small because of the big flaps. They will deploy only at the very
    last of the stroke on aileron movment. Only when you need the boost, slow speed
    in the wind. Wayne

  35. #35
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Slow flight

    Peaple'
    Its been kind of quiet here lately so i'm going to bring up a problem in slow flight that
    few is anyone thinks about. When ever we what to show our stuff and demo our
    slow flight capibilitys we pull every thing we can out of our plane to lighten the load.
    On take off this is all good due to accellerating a weight to flight speed. This is not
    allways true for slow flight ones in the air. Many of the striped out planes out there
    are nose heavy when real light. I know this dosn't sound right at first but give it some
    though. take a yard stick and tape a axle to it at the one ft mark and take two
    blocks put on a scales with the axle across. Tape 10 oz. to the short end and 5 oz.
    at the far end. It balances. Now move the axle to the 14" mark. The short end with
    the 10 oz. falls. If you push down on the 5 oz. end look what happens to the scales.
    The weight reading goes up. This is like your plane, if you are using a lot of pressure
    to hold up your nose your wing is like the axle point. You are increasing the wing load.
    Your wing is trying to carry more than needed. If a small amont of weight is in the
    aft bagage but still in CG. it will reduce the wing loading more than enough to make up
    for the weight added in the bagage. The plane will handle better on aproach and
    on the ground you can get on the brakes with out nosing over. Don't worry about
    take off, after you get it parked where you want it you can throw out the rocks.
    Wayne
    Thanks Jonnyo thanked for this post

  36. #36
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Stol

    Is any one out there using vortex generaters with a slat or slot system. would like
    to know what is being tryed in this area. I have used them with good success but
    would like to learn more. Wayne

  37. #37
    Guest
    Just saw an article in Feb. AOPA Pilot magazine on "discontinuous outboard leading edges" Interesting read.

  38. #38
    Jerry Burr's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Sedro Woolley, Washington.
    Posts
    700
    Post Thanks / Like

    AOPA

    Hi Jim. Can you scan it for us? Jerry.

  39. #39
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Slat mod

    Jerry,
    Have a new idea on gen. placement on the slat. If you see Denny in the next few
    day see if he wants to get together to check this out. Do you still have a bunch of
    gen. under the tape. if not I have about a hundred I could get ready. [the large]
    Think it will help the low end and cause them to lay down at a lower cruise speed.
    Should see ya in 10 days. Wayne

    PS. the Allta burned

  40. #40
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
    Posts
    390
    Post Thanks / Like

    Super Cubby

    Looking for imformation. Does any one have a phone number for the Tomson Brothers.
    When they first built there cubby they got some numbers off the 36" tires I had on
    my plane and ordered some for their plane. They came from Dunlap out of Great
    Britten. I lost the info and would like to get the numbers back again. Wayne

Similar Threads

  1. Extreme cropdusting with cubs
    By BritishCubBloke in forum Cafe Supercub
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 02-20-2008, 01:15 PM
  2. Experimental Cubs
    By Seacrane in forum Experimental Cubs
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-28-2007, 05:59 AM

Bookmarks

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •