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Thread: Experimental Cubs & Extreme Stol Devices, Flaps,slats,sl

  1. #121
    Jerry Burr's Avatar
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    To droop or not to droop.

    Just some comments on the droopy ailerons. I have been running them for 21 years now and am always changing things. The big perceived problem with the CC droop kit was the inability to disconnect them when they were not wanted. ie. lots of wind. Wayne has designed a (turn off) so the droop can be disconnected when not wanted in his system. My system has eventually evolved to a percentage adjustment. I adjust the percentage of droop I want to deploy with the flaps. I have not touched it in probably 2 years. Well last week I was landing in the tundra in the windy up north and decided it would be a good time to remove some droop. The result was a totally screwed up final approach and scary landing. I quickly screwed the droop back in and instead limited the application of flaps. The problem was the lack of drag that I have been used to for years. Even 10 to 15 degrees of droop provides a lot of drag to pull against. Just having the flaps down half was like nothing at all. However with the ailerons (in) and half flaps it drops the ails probably 8 degrees. As you all know by drooping (adjusting) the ailerons down 3/8" you get the best trade between drag and aileron response. Well you also know if you drop (adjust) them down 1/2" you have a lot more aileron. Which is what I have with 2 notches of flap. I have 4 notches of flaps and found that with the aileron droop normal and limiting the flaps to 1 or 2 notches and leaving the aileron droop in, I had a heck of a lot more control in the wind. Any way you cut it the long wings are a lot more work in that kind of wind, but if that wind is not the norm I sure love the long wings. Yes Crash, I hear you. Jerry
    Thanks Jonnyo thanked for this post

  2. #122
    StewartB
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    Jerry,

    How does the deck angle compare at a given flap setting with and without the aileron droop?

    Stewart

  3. #123
    Jerry Burr's Avatar
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    Hi Stewart. It's flatter with the ailerons. The pitch down of the ailerons counter the pitch up of the flaps. No trim change necessary with any notch of flaps. Jerry.

  4. #124
    StewartB
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    Jerry,

    Your response raises a new question. If a guy is utilizing a cuff or slats, does the aileron droop work in harmony with those mods or would the drooping ailerons reduce the AOA and prevent the cuff or slats from achieving full effectiveness? I'm thinking in terms of power-on approaches.

    I presume the drooping ailerons would be beneficial for power-off approaches while the cuffs and slats may not be. Is that presumption correct?

    What is the effect of the drooping ailerons on take-off performance? Would you disable your aileron droop for any particular take-off conditions?

    Thanks. As always, I appreciate your comments.

    Stewart

  5. #125
    Jerry Burr's Avatar
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    Hi Stewart. Waynes droopey ailerons are almost as famous as his slats. He always installs both on the Cubs he builds as far as I know. Denny Martel has both plus extended chord ails and flaps. They work fine together. On takeoff they work better with more power. In my situation I can leverage the airplane off the ground but may have to stay in ground effect for a while until speed builds if the temp is near 100 or I exceed 200lb over gross. The speed builds a lot faster in the air than on the ground, so I choose to do it that way. With the Airstreaks on the ground I kind of reach terminal velocity and it just continues to roll. Got to get it up up and away. Jerry.

  6. #126

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    Wayne---I own an Me109 with retractable slats and I used to own an Me-108 with the same. The leading edge of the wing is quite pointed where the slat rests in the retracked posistion. In fact the wing wont fly if you loose a slat. If you want any dimentions or pictures let me know & I will get them to you. The retractable slat was in the early 1930s! An English invention. Palhal

  7. #127

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    drooping ailerons

    Jerry

    Good to hear from you on the site
    I don't get on enough, what have you been up to

    Just a personal comment on Wayne's droopes, I play back and forth with the first 2 settings with different wind situations.
    Continue to be amazed how well they work. LIke Wayne said use it or loose it.
    For a novice I have learned a lot with this airplane
    Are you going to Osh this year
    By chance will you be this way

    Stay in touch

  8. #128
    Jerry Burr's Avatar
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    Hey Coyote. We won't make Osh this year. Johnson Crk probably. Been up in Ak. for 3 weeks, kind of butt sore. Run into several other (outside) Cubbers while up there. Had fun playing with Loni and Kenya Cub. My wife Becky has several fishing trips to guide into the high Cascades this summer yet plus a 60 mile hike with friends. We have to get these fit in before Sept 6 when school starts. Glad to hear you are enjoying the new Cub. Jerry

  9. #129
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    stol

    Hi Guy's,
    Sorry for the late reply, but I went to the New H. flyin in a pick up and than went to
    Alabama to pic up Faifchiald 24 to rebiuld. Just got home sunday evening.
    As for the slats and drooping ailerons they work good. You are able to fly at a
    flatter angle do to the damed up air caused by the flap and aileron makeing a better flow
    through the slat. With the added drag you can use more power giving you more
    lift and better control. As to power off with slats and droopy ailerons it works
    great, you just use your rate of desent as your power sorce. this take some
    practice or you'll be flexing your gear.
    Jerry, glad to hear you and Becky maybe at Johnson Cr. See you there. Wayne
    Thanks Jonnyo thanked for this post

  10. #130
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Here we are in 2007. I linked-in to this thread from the "flap rigged to adjust aileron" thread and I thought I'd make a comment to revive this thread on STOL and High-Lift devices.

    Took delivery yesterday of a set of Waynes' leading edge slats. I was surprised when I unpacked the box at the light weight. This new project they're going on is really getting me excited now.

    I suppose I'll be commenting greater in the next few weeks as covering commences and then as the project wraps up.

    P.S. Mod-12 replica with squared-extended wings, adjustable droopy ails., slats, aileron-coupled spoilers for roll-authority, extended span flaps and ailerons, adjustable wing incidence(up to 4 deg), bigger elevators, bigger fin and rudder, greater pitch-trim range (more jackscrew range).

    P.P.S. 230HP

  11. #131
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins
    Here we are in 2007. I linked-in to this thread from the "flap rigged to adjust aileron" thread and I thought I'd make a comment to revive this thread on STOL and High-Lift devices.

    Took delivery yesterday of a set of Waynes' leading edge slats. I was surprised when I unpacked the box at the light weight. This new project they're going on is really getting me excited now.

    I suppose I'll be commenting greater in the next few weeks as covering commences and then as the project wraps up.

    P.S. Mod-12 replica with squared-extended wings, adjustable droopy ails., slats, aileron-coupled spoilers for roll-authority, extended span flaps and ailerons, adjustable wing incidence(up to 4 deg), bigger elevators, bigger fin and rudder, greater pitch-trim range (more jackscrew range).

    P.P.S. 230HP
    Dave-

    Lets see some pictures!

  12. #132
    Ruidoso Ron's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Calkins
    adjustable wing incidence(up to 4 deg
    How is this accomplished, Dave?

  13. #133

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    This sounds like a cool plane that you guys must have put a lot of work into.
    Thanks for telling us about it,Aurele
    P.S.If not to TOP SECRET would love to see some pics.

  14. #134
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    I'll send photos once they're organized. I'm away to Colorado for the weekend, then back to work having fun on the mod-12.

    Wing-incidence is accomplished by a modified forward spar attach hard point on the wing spar. The standard "fittings" and "filler blocks" have been replaced by a machined set of plates that clamp the wing spar and have holes one below the next to allow several different incidence settings. Obviously ground-adjustable only. The top deck and windshield were "customized" so that the highest-incidence setting doesn't cause a 'gull wing' effect at the wingroot/winshield junction.

    Wayne's slats rock!! they are very light weight....which is a shame.....because I thought I'd be able to save some weight by building a set for myself from carbon-graphite. I might be able to build them stronger or tougher with graphite, but probably not much lighter.

    See you later. DAVE

  15. #135

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    drooping ailerons - How are the cables operated

    Can anyone describe how the drooping aileron system works. Wayne Mackey showed me the one on his personal project but at the time I didn't have the foresight to have him explain how he could tension one cable while slacking another using the one lever. Of course that is an oversimplification but basically it boggles me.
    At the point where I am with my stretched pacer, its probably a good idea to weld in any needed brackets now before painting the fuselage. I guess I could call Wayne but it might be more useful for the group overall to have the explanation preserved here. Thanks.

    Brad

  16. #136
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    I got back from Colorado last night. Man, is it hot in Grand Junction. But beautiful country. I grew up on the Eastern slope of the range, my wife on the Western slope, but we met in Alaska. I could enjoy a second home in GJ.

    Brad, on the aileron droop, you have it right to think of it as gathering on the 'down' cables, and loosening on the 'up' cables.

    If you intend to do this on your current project, get the wings on it and make sure all the cable runs/pulleys/fairleads, basically the whole system is in place now. Retrofitting it on a finished Pacer or -12 or -14 will not be as easy as the -3/-11/-18. The -3/-11/-18 are a bit easier to retro because of how the cables go out from the joystick torque tube and how the balance cable crosses in front of the pilots forehead; basically, less welding to a finished frame, and no messing with the aileron belcranks in the wing like on a -12.

    On an -18, just think of it as taking up cable on the one above your forehead, and giving cable to the ones running up the struts. Of course, there is the way that it is actuated to think about, but the basics are 'give and take'.

    Talk to Wayne and see if he's cool with giving away the system for free. The one in the mod-12 is very different from Waynes PA-18 system, but the 'give and take' of the cables are obviously the heart of it.

    DAVE

  17. #137
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Interesting discussion. There was a fellow at the Missouri Breaks fly in with a Zenith -7, which normally are equipped with (external) fixed slats. His were removed, and the hangers were out in the breeze.

    When I asked him about the absence of the slats, he noted that a lot of Zenith guys are removing them, and feel that the performance is actually a little better without them.

    Sometimes its' hard to guess what effect these things will have, I guess.

    MTV

  18. #138
    12Geezer2's Avatar
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    About a week ago Mr Mackey gave me a grand tour of his operations and a viewing of his personal experimental. I am anxiously awaiting the video he promises to share with us. If indeed it lives up to expectations many will be impressed. Thank you very much for sharing your time . You are the perfect example of why I enjoy the aviation world so much. Though I am on the "low end" of things you treat me like royalty --thank you Wayne! ---- Wheat Combiner -12Geezer2-Dan

  19. #139

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    Dave and 12Geezer,

    Thanks for the input. I have been a little short sighted in paying attention to the systems I have been around. I probably need to work with Wayne to figure out a system to work with my controls. Im epoxy primering the fuselage so if any bracket is needed later it should be a small issue.
    As for the know how or parts, I am happy to pay for any parts needed from Mr. Mackey if I need to add any. My project is a stretched tri-pacer, with a small twist. I am installing twin sticks even though I have a perfectly good yoke setup. Just personal preference. Running the cables per the tri-pacer setup so nothing runs up the struts. Wayne is such a great guy that I really hate to bother him where I basically have a one-off. He was going to do a stretched pacer project but I think he said he sold it since he had the supercub project close to flyable.
    As for the slats, I am planning on using them. Seems like a nice safety margin. The fuselage should see a coat of epoxy primer in the next week or so then on to the wings. I need to order the brackets from Wayne to install the slats. Hopefully I can do some flying initially without the slats and then see what they do to the slow speed characteristics of the plane after I get used to flying without.
    12Geezer, What did you think of the engine mount on Wayne's personal project. I will be interested to see what the lowered mount does to the flying qualities of the plane. It certainly increased the visibility in an impressive way! I sat in that plane and he lifted the tail and I immediately wanted to push forward on the stick because of the added visibility. What a great guy to have access to. Thanks.

    Brad

  20. #140
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Brad, the specifics of a workable aileron droop system for your Pacer are likely to be "..a one-off..." as you said.

    Any added pulley brackets are relatively simple, but their locations to work with your wings/primary controls/fuselage as a "system", will not be simple to derive unless the wings are on the fuselage and your aileron and flap controls are installed. This is not a "..hurry and install it now/perfect it later..." type of deal. If you need help, seek it.

    As for the guys removing fixed slats from their Zenith STOL aircraft, my assumption would be that they are looking for cruise-flight performance over slow-flight qualities. Mike?

    DAVE

  21. #141
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Dave,

    That was my assumption as well, but the guy I spoke with said that they are actually getting a little better TAKEOFF and LANDING performance without the slats...

    Now, those slats are a fairly different design than what many Super Cubs have, which are really SLOTS, so maybe the design isn't good.

    I found it interesting, in any case. The thing really looked odd with the hangers sticking out from the leading edge...

    That's why they call em "Experimental" I reckon. The guy did tell me this is becoming pretty widespread in the Zenith crowd.

    MTV

  22. #142
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    The Dakota Cub wing has a slot.

    Wayne Mackey has a moving SLAT.

    The ZenithSTOL designs have a fixed SLAT. The slat increases wing area as well as helps keep flow attached at high angles of attack. Removal of the slat for slow-flight performance GAIN seems counterintuitive.

    'spose I'll go search for some discussion in the Zenith world.

    DMC

  23. #143
    Dave Calkins's Avatar
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    Here is a story from a guy who is selling VG's to be installed after removing the slats from the Zenith-type STOL a/c.

    The way he talks about slow flight and '..dragging it in at high AOA with power..' makes me wonder a bit. Also, he's selling something:

    http://www.stolspeed.com/content.php?id=5

    As far as slow-flight, the slats come into their own at very high AOA, but that doesn't have to mean simply "dragging it in with a bunch of power".

    Thanks for the headsup Mike.

    DAVE

  24. #144
    12Geezer2's Avatar
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    Brad(PA-18Project) So as not to offend anyone it's 12geezer2. I believe 12 geezer is a physics instructor and would certainly have a much higher educated opinion of the mods being discussed. Waynes aircraft is certainly one of the most interesting I've ever seen. I did not sit in it but can see that his over the nose view is much improved over the standard engine location. I have several hundred hours in a standard 1952 pa-18 with no electrics and 150 hp. It does everything I ever wanted to do in a cub. I admire those folks who are more capable of flying close to the edge and have the know how to make the mods work. Wayne is a true craftsman and I'd sure like to fly his handywork--12geezer2-Dan

  25. #145
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Dave,

    Yes, I failed to mention that this fellow said that the folks who are removing the slats from their Zenith wings are also installing VG's.

    As you say, not exactly intuitive, but the fellow I visited with seemed to think that his Zenith was actually doing better without the slat, and with the VG's than before, and this guy has quite a bit of experience with his airplane.

    Go figure.

    MTV
    Likes pfm liked this post

  26. #146
    Jerry Burr's Avatar
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    Slat / VG

    Hi. I read the site mentioned above about the Z701. The Z slat was never designed for high speed cruise. I don't know how much testing Z did on the slat placement but it must of worked ok for their purpose. Their placement is not similar to most others. The fellow that removed his slat and is now making and selling V.G.'s for the 701 doesn't understand how his product functions as shown by the placement on his wing. But they are no doubt better than nothing. Wayne's slats were designed to close for cruise flight in recognition of the drag problems of fixed slats. In contrast to this 701 report Wayne's slats work extremely well in conjunction with V.G.'s. It in effect it supercharges the V.G.'s. Jerry B.

  27. #147
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    slats

    My experimental cub is now flying and i'm happy with the performance.
    It has a stock 0-320 and a 82 41 prop. It is right at 1100 lbs. empty.
    I biult 6" exstended gear and has 31" bush wheels. Has 8' flaps and ailerons with a 17" cord. At 2450 it looks like 90 mph.
    As for performance there is a lot more than just a short takeoff or landing. As for me the best part of this type of slat is the slow speed
    handling and control you have. Rather then a stall and spin entry it
    only sinks when pushed to the limit. I myself would not have a bush
    plane without them. But that is only me.
    There are pro's and con's to all air craft including this one.
    It is harder to deal with in heavey winds. But so is a cub compaired with
    a c-185. A 20mph wind is have that of a cub stall speed. It's above mine
    so you can see the possible problems.
    The slats are foward of the wing about 7" so fueling is more difficult.
    Standard wing covers don't fit.
    The bushings on the slat hinges may need replacing every 3 or 4 years
    and that takes about $20 and 1 hrs. time.
    They are not hard to fly but takes some time to learn how to get the
    most out of them.
    Angle of attack is much greater at touch down so visibility has to be delt
    with. You don't pull the nose up until the last few feet before touchdown.
    I won't get into what they can really do to much as for all the na sa'ers
    will get carryed away with all thoughts, and I don't want a rant and rave here.

    Ps. A hot 160 /180 cub will match this plane on takeoff, climb,and cruise
    but as for slow speed manuevering and landing no contest. Pics. and Vid.
    are coming.
    I want thank all family and friends for there help and support though this
    last two years. They were long and hard. Wayne
    Thanks Jonnyo thanked for this post

  28. #148
    AkPA/18's Avatar
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    Congrats Wayne!!---looking fwd to the vid and pics.

    Mark
    http://thrustline.com/

    Takeoffs are optional--Landings are mandatory

  29. #149
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    Thanks

    Thanks Mark,
    I've got 6 hrs on it now and everything is going ok. Only 19 more to go and I can leave my test area. Wayne

  30. #150
    Bill Rusk's Avatar
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    Wayne

    Congrats. I like your train of thought. I'm sure it will be a great plane.

    Bill

  31. #151
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Congrads Wayne. Can't wait to hear more and see the pics and video.
    Steve Pierce

    Everybody is ignorant, only on different subjects.
    Will Rogers

  32. #152
    mvivion's Avatar
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    Wayne,

    We're all looking forward to pictures.

    MTV

  33. #153
    S2D's Avatar
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    Flew Wayne's airplane this morning. Probably the most comfortable "unfamiliar" airplane I've ever flown. Right off the ground you could tell it was a real solid flying A/C. This was flaps up. Deploying Flaps and Ailerons while working it hard will take quite a bit of getting used to.
    Nice Job Wayne.
    I may be wrong but that probably won't stop me from arguing about it.

  34. #154
    kase's Avatar
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    Photo of waynes airplane by larry mayer.


  35. #155
    behindpropellers's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kase
    Photo of waynes airplane by larry mayer.

    You guys get to have all of the fun!!

    Tim

  36. #156
    Steve Pierce's Avatar
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    Details please. Ya'll are killing me.
    Steve Pierce

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    Will Rogers

  37. #157

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    This reminds me of an old aircraft that was out at Merrill Field about 30 years ago. It was a t-cart with a raised top deck. Same type of slats. My neighbor Lonnie Temple flew it and said it was the most stable airplane he had been in. One quirk it had, was it had Hillman Minx car tires and brakes. Congratulations it is a fine looking cub.

  38. #158
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    slats

    Jay,
    I biult that plane when I still lived in AK. That was my first slated
    plane and a test bed for several other projects. I had aT cart fuse to
    start with. I raised topdeck for visibility, installed cub type gear and 36"
    tires. The Hillman spindles, brakes and wheels were the right size for the
    tires. The brakes were a joke! The wings were off the wall in design
    with 80" cord. The slat were simular in shape but fixed in place, not
    nearly as affective. It was a good plane and lots of fun. Wayne


    PS. Was sorry to hear Lonnie pasted on, Freinds of our family 50 years.

  39. #159

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    I read a lot more than post, but I should probably chime in...Wayne did a good portion of work on my aircraft which now has 100hrs of time...good time - mostly off field, high altitude (above 9,000msl). We added slats, changed flight controls, lengthened the fuselage & wings, radically changed the landing gear, and made other small changes to what used to be a Maule MX7. From day one I was paranoid and questioned every design change, but stuck with him. I have to say I'm VERY VERY happy with his work. Finding a craftsman who is willing to go outside the box in the airplane world is very difficult - Wayne is the man! If anyone has any hesitation, or questions about Wayne's work or mods, please PM or email me...gameyer@comcast.net.

    For 3 years, I watched Wayne put his own plane on the back burner, so he could work on my aircraft & others. Thanks again, Wayne - and congratulations!

    Geoff

  40. #160
    Wayne Mackey's Avatar
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    Details

    Some details Steve,
    Have about 20 hrs. on the plane now and am pleased with it so far.
    The fuseluge is much like a cub but 4" wider at the dash and 2 3/4
    wider at the rear door post. The door was built/placed farther forward
    and makes it better to swing your feet in and out. More important with age
    Wings attached at greater angle. The engine is installed about 3" lower on
    the frame with a 0 thustline. That is important with the slow speed handling. The cowl is fiberglass and molded tight down on top of the eng.
    So the line of sight over the nose is about 5" better than a cub. On 6"gear, 31 BushWheels I can see the ground 45 feet in front over the nose. I used cub type ribs and spar matieral. The flaps and ailerons are
    both 8 feet long and have a 17 1/8" cord. The flaps drop about 55 De.
    and the ailerons droop about 24 De. You can select to droop or not the
    ailerons. Am sending pics on CD to Steve so he can post them. I'm less
    than usless on a pc. Wayne

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  2. Experimental Cubs
    By Seacrane in forum Experimental Cubs
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 09-28-2007, 05:59 AM

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