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Short Take-Off.

Somewhere on this site we had a discussion about the turbulence caused by the extra 3" of flaps extended INBOARD to the fuselage. 'Nuther 3 inches is what the thread was titled.

Back to the airfoileed, VG'ed, or enlargened tail:

I checked out the airfoiled tailfeather thread and didn't find an answer.

It seems like since we know we want "lift" on the tail in a certain direction (down, of course), we'd design an airfoil cross-section that would work FOR us. Or would we just get along with a stock symetrical "flat plate" of an airfoil, and mask the problems with the "magical" vortex generator??

Piper designing for simplicity, light weight, and low-cost aside, where are we on this issue??

Dave Calkins.
 
Seems to me that someone (hint hint) working with slots and slats could take a look at turning the gap between the horizontal and the elevator into a slot shape that would close at full up and open on the way down . Both the change in angle of attack on the elevator and the coanda effect of the designed slot would at least unstall the elevator.

Gary
 
Ribs

Anybody know anything about the Riblett GAU 613-66" wing that D&E advertises? I e-mailed them to ask for some names of people that have bought them so I could find out how they worked but haven't received an answer.
 
Tails and Tales.

Hi Dave. When I was testing V.G.'s on the wing, it was clear that the wing efficiency was improved to the point that the tail (horizontal/elevator) no longer had the authority to stall the wing. The problem had to be corrected before further testing could proceed. I am currently using a PA-20/22 balanced tail. The fix according to Mr. Dodge, and a requirement on one of his STC's was to install the 6" longer PA-18 tail. I rejected this because of the additional weight and the increased twisting moment on the fuselage. Cost was also a factor. It was only logical that the V.G.'s caused the problem (with the wings) that they should be able to fix the problem (with the tail). I installed them under the horizontal and the problem went away. Later when the wing testing was complete, I revisited the tail and removed all of the V.G.'s that were not necessary, leaving only enough V.G.'s to completely stall the wing for 3 point landings. (with power). The weight of the additional V.G.'s was 1.6 oz. I believe that 95% of the stock engine/wing PA-18's will get along fine with a stock tail if flown using the techniques outlined in the { Landing Short Over A 50 Or 100 ft. Obstacle } thread. I don't believe that power off or ( 0-thrust ) landings have any place in the STOL world. In addition to giving the tail more authority on approach, using power makes it less likely that the engine will falter (fart) when a burst of power is needed for a power flare. For the other 5% or those with modified wings, the large squared tail with V.G.'s is about the limit for a practical application. An all flying tail (stableator ) is probably the best, but it and it's mounts are heavy. The real problem to deal with at high AOA is that the stabilizer acts like a Delta Fin and tends to push the tail up (you can see Delta Fins under the tail of the new Lears) as the elevator is trying to push it down. At some point they just cancell each other out. The easiest way to solve this is to reduce the size of the stabilizer. (( For those that have BLR kits and have installed the plates on the fuselage that effectively INCREASE the size of the stabilizer, please don't ask me for ways to increase the elevator effectiveness. You have created your own problem )). A simple/light method would to add an airfoil to the bottom leading edge of the elevator. A slat if you will. They were used on Polish built Storches. They would be simple to add to the existing structure. The inverted airfoil that some STOL types use, are hard to adapt to the Cub. They have to be both large and light and on a Cub STRONG. The Cub tube and fabric is about as sturdy and simple as you can get. If I had elevator problems, I would probably test the elevator slat first. Wayne is involved in this problem on his STOLMASTER Slat kit. And he will probably have a lot to add to my simple musings.
 
Slated or sloted tail feathers

Gary, Ok i'll take the bait. The slat on the tail has been used with good success. The
problem with it on a cub is draging your tail through the brush. I know we would'nt
this but fact is fact. Still it would be the best and simplest on a cub. Just got told
I have to leave. Will be back with what i a'm doing with this problem
Wayne
 
How difficult would it be to test an inverted airfoil on the stab surface? Say, peel the fabric, and attach a thin rod (maybe 3/16 or so) across the ribs on the bottom side. This would create a slight airfoil shape once the fabric was shruck back on.

mod_stab.gif
 
Slats or ?? tailfeathers

Gary, Remember 95% of the toys i make are installed on Exsperimental aircraft so testing isn't as much touble. I think i have come up with a way to clamp a slat on
18 tailfeathers with out damage to the fabric. We know it works but how much.
I have been using long flaps as well as drooping ailerons. With my slats we can
droop them about 23 degree's and keep fair control. We all know the wind can be
a problem here so i make my system so I can disengage the droop at any time in
flight. Anyhow I have a big pitch control poblem when the plane is in the light weight mode.
With the PA18 tail and the power on no problem, but with the power off keeping
the nose high is prettie tuff. My plan is to make a panal in both stabilizers that
comes up like the elevater. In doing so it will decrease the size of stabilizer and
increase the size of elevater. At high angles of atack or desent the stabilizer
counteracts elevater. This system will be controled by the flaps, more flaps more
up panal. What fun! Wayne

Cubcouper, In the mid 70s we made PA18 tail with an airfoil . We didn't gain enough
to be worth the trouble. Good luck , hope yours is better than ours.
 
I'm building an experimental cub. I'm seriously thinking about a symetrical airfoil on the tail surface, hoping to decrease drag and improve control authority at low speed. I believe closing the gap between the elevator and horizontal stab would also help. Anyone got any ideas for a add on "gap seal" for my bushmaster I'm flying now.

Don
 
How about the clear tape that completely covers the gap between elevator and stab...............I've seen it on aerobatic aircraft. Would it help or hurt on a cub?
 
Elevator gap seal.

The fabric seal between the stabilizer and the elevator does help. It is a pain to maintain, unless it is a stits tape or that sort of thing. The drawback is that it feeds higher elevator forces back through the system and into the stick. Hit a real hard air bump and it will take the stick right out of your hand. It's just another compromise. :) Jerry.
 
Stolmaster,

After I thought about a slot between the horizontal and the elevator, I also realized that it if worked well enough to get the elevator flying, but not the horizontal, you could create a control reversal.

-something like your comment about the elevator and horizontal countering each other at high rates of decent-

I can't quite figure out the location of your slat. My ideas for a tail slat have always been eliminated by the leading edge geometry.

Gary
 
tail slats

Gary, I would biuld a slat the shape of a cub wing with about a 4 or 5" cord and install
it upside down with the flat side up about 4" away from the elevater. The slat would be
about 15% of it's own cord ahead of the elevator hing point. It will have to be notched
around the flying wires. Testing to be safe it would be installed on one side only to see
the affect, and the other side would be unaffected.
stolmaster
 
Blast from the past. A fun tread to revisit, for sure. I know Denny Martel passed away last winter and later in the year I remember his Cub being for sale, as is/where is, with a sick engine in Yakutat. Who ended up with that Cub? Anyone here?
 
The airplane is at KBVS at present. Adding a lot of parts to the sale and will try again. Don't know what she will ask this time. Jerry B.
 
I agree Glenn. cubdrvr sent me a roll of that tape and now I finally get to install it on my own Super Cub. Like old movies, there is lots of good, old stuff on this website.
 
Anybody know why the cambered tail on a Stearman is mounted upside down?

But back to short takeoffs, this little critter could get off shorter than anything I know. Couldn't get the camera far enough away to include his wingtips, but you can get an idea of his size from the man standing on the ladder by his head.
 

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