Buying a Super Cub

My 12 yr old son and I have determined that life would be good with a Super Cub in the family. I previously owned a 7ECA Citabria which was a fun airplane, but a little limited. Tell me, Great Cub Gurus, what to look for in a good Cub for Western Alaska. Is a -125 or -135 desireable? What is the difference between the PA18 and PA18A? Thanks!

Paul,

Welcome aboard. I'm gonna guess that your request for information will result in more comments (some conflicting) about what you really need in a SuperCub than you will be able to digest in one sitting. We are definately an opinionated lot.

Being somewhat of a rookie myself, (I've only had my Cub for a little over a year) I'll offer what I think is a good set up. I'm sure others will chime in with additional suggestions. First things I'd look for is heavy gear, safety cables, and a Borer prop. Long range fuel tanks might also be something you'd want to consider in the bush.

The October/November 2001 issue of Northern Pilot magazine had a pretty good article on SuperCub safety mods. Some of the suggestions in it were from frequent contributors to this forum. Their web site is www.northernpilot.com

You'll find lots of discussion in previous posts about the advantages of light Cubs with minimal equipment vs average weight cubs with more HP. You might want to look through some of the older discussion threads to get an idea of what might work for you.

I think that whatever cub you end up with will result in a significant increase in the number of smiles per mile. Good luck! Oh by the way, a PA-18A is the agricultural model of a SuperCub with a few features like a flat top deck and the potential for increased gross weight capability. Many have been rebuilt such that they are almost indistinguishable from a standard PA 18. There are other diferences which I'm not entirely sure of (the last one I flew was over 20 years ago) .

Anyway -- regardless of the model, go for it you'll never regret having a Cub.

I think you shouldn't pay too much attention to the mods, unless you really think you're going to need them, and pay a lot of attention to any deferred maintenance. Overall, installing modifications is a lot cheaper than fixing problems. For me, buying a plane that someone else had spent a lot of time doing a stock restoration on was a good choice. My plane has had all it's nooks and crannies looked into by someone who while not an IA, was an interested owner, and available for me to eyeball. I bought my plane (for a not cheap price) as much because of the owner, as the specifications.

I'm going slow on the mods. I don't get to fly a lot, and I'm not interested in dropping my plane into little places, as much as just flying around and gaining wing time. I don't need big tires, not yet. Same goes for a climb prop for that matter, I'm just not taking the plane where it's needed right now, and I'm not in a hurry to go there either. Not that I wouldn't mind having any of that stuff, it's just not what I need.

So, make sure you buy a well inspected airplane, and don't get too hooked up on things you can add later. You can save a lot of money taking over someone elses dream, but make sure it fits your mission. My mission is to have an affordable safe and fun plane that I can learn with, the bush plane stuff is just gravy.

18 vs 18a

the 18 a is the ag model,it has a flat top deck(behind rear window).a lot of them are converted to regular 18s by building up the top of the fuselage.i have 2 18a models.there is alot of differing opinions,but most people think the a model will reduce stall speed by a couple miles an hour. i really dont know for sure,all cubs feel different. i know mine is the best feeling slow flight machine ive ever flown.an old time cub pilot,whos owned over fifteen supercubs agrees with me.he said after flying mine,that it was more responsive at 40 mph indicated that any of the ones hes flown were at 60 mph.everyone will argue,but if you get an a model i suggest to leave it like it was,its not as pretty,but at slow speed its beautiful. :evilbat:

A well-maintained Cub!!!

Don't buy any "pretty" junk. If you don't know how to tell, hire someone who does. That someone will be a guy who maintains good Cubs, that have a 100% dispatch rate.

Since your 12 year-old will probably be learning to fly and building time in this Cub, a 125/135HP Cub is fine. He'll save money on fuel, build more time because the a/c will be slower than a higher HP Cub, and learn the tricks to making a lower-powered a/c perform.

Fly the a/c before you buy it. If you don't know how a good Cub should fly, hire someone who does, and ask their opinion.

Buy something light. A fair number for a 150HP Cub is between 1100 and 1150 pounds. A lower HP version should come in under 1100. Otherwise, you'll be dismayed when you fly a light Cub and see what you missed by buying a pig.

Most of all, get a thorough inspection before purchasing. If you decide on an a/c, you will need a guy to spend at least a day on inspecting that prospective new purchase. If you have a guy do anything less than a thorough, read "annual" type inspection, you don't know what you are about to purchase. There's not much worse in life than buying an a/c, then spending a bunch of money for "unknown" defects, due to a bad pre-purchase inspection.

Don't make an "emotional" decision. Be business-like and make sure you're willing to walk away from a plane if the deal isn't perfect.

Good Luck. Be Careful. Welcome to SuperCub.ORG. Have FUN.

Dave Calkins.

Paul:
Good advice above. The pre-buy on the ship is critical. Just as important is the A/P who does it knows cubs and preferably flys one. Also, the paperwork needs the same attention to what is there -- and not there. Money paid for ship and paper inspection comes back in multiples in savings, safety and resale. As for mods and ag models, you will get a lot of differing opinions. I suggest you look at what cubs have the best resale value (not asking price, resale value) when sold. The actual sale price in the market will help you separate out the theory of various mods as to their performance reflected by what cub drivers seek. When you do that research, I think you will find the most sought after ships are closer to stock with mods limited to proven items like 160 hp, big tires, cables, bore prop and VGs.

Paul, You are correct. A life without a Super Cub is not much of a life.

The biggest things are, what do you want to spend?, and what will you be useing the plane for?

Without knowing these things, I wouldn't advise much other than getting to know the Super Cub owners in your area. Preferrable some who use their plane the way you want to. (They may look a little rough, smell bad, and be a loud opininated bunch, but when you get to know them, they are really not that bad).

Look over the planes that are used in your area, and see how they are equipped, and what they can do. Educate yourself as much as you can to what different models/mods are used for, and buy with your head, rather than your heart.

Thanks for the replies. We are going to use the bird for hunting, fishing, chasing the Iditarod, and occasional trips into the road system (we are 400 miles off the highway system). I know that eventually a fuel/cargo pod will be a good addition with the distances I fly, as anyone who flies in the bush knows, you can hardly have too much fuel.

I am looking at spending in the 30-45k range. I know that 160-180hp would be optimal, but I'm looking at a '51 model with the O-290 in it. It has a mid time engine, but has flown only about 20 hrs a yr for the last 10 years. Opinions?

Check oil consumption and blow-by. O-290s are notourious for excessive blow-by.

Steve

Thanks Steve. I'm going to fly the Spam can up to look at the Super Cub Saturday. I'm not an A&P, but is there anything that I should look for that would be not too difficult to see, stuff that should scare me off?

Here is the $2 dollar question: What is a Cub worth? I know what guys are asking in Trade-a-plane, but is that close to actual sale price? This bird is probably a year or two from needing fabric (paint is in poor cond), old King Nav/Com, everything pretty original inside. It does have droop tips and 26" bushwheels. Give me some unbiased opinions!!

30K would be too much. You are looking at least another 50K to rebuild with the useful mods, re-engine and recover. There is no way a cub that old can't need a complete rebuild. You would be better off with an engine that was run 20 hours a month than one ran 20 hours a year. I also assume this airplane has set outside most or all of the last 10 years and that's hard on it. Also get a A&P you trust to do a through inspection.

Maybe Bethel has changed from the last time I was there but SC parts and service might be a little hard to come by.

0-290

I'd stay away fom any Cub that had an 0-290 in it. The parts for rebuild have gone throught the roof. Most guys at rebuild are junking them and going to the 0-320. I don't think Lycoming will even take it as a "unlike core" for exchange. A new 0-320 outright is around $25K. I can also tell you that a 1951 Cub at rebuild time will mostly go in the dumpster if you're picky at all about the end result. This sounds like a sows ear. Crash

Hate to say this! Most good cubs don't come from AK, unless you buy one from a distress sale! If they are purchased you can expect to pay top dollar! The good ones usually don't get advertised, and then it goes downhill from there! I say this but I have also purchased 1/2 dozen from Alaska! Sounds confusing, it is! All of the above advise is good advise! Bethel is hard as hell on anything, including cubs! My suggestion is look outside the state first! Especially if you are not planning to put alot of mods on a plane! Most planes that operate in Alaska are left outside, most planes in the lower 48 are stored in a hanger! That in itself is worth a whoooooooooooole lot on any rag and tube plane!

I put an ad on ever site on the internet I could find and in 3 weeks I had over 50 replies from sellers for "the best cub for XXX $$$".

Bottom line How much do you want to spend, how long do you intend to keep it, and what are you using it for, ALL FACTORS ARE RELATED.

Also lastly, don't be afraid to make and offer! Cubs seldom sell for what they are advertised for!

Good luck, and welcome to the Best cub site on the net!

Tim

Paul:

Ouch! on the 20 hours a year for the last 10.

Ouch! on the "...year or two from new fabric..".

You're gonna spend $10K minimum on fabric, more likely $16K or more, and that's without fixing anything under the fabric.

You're engine build will cost you $10K minimum to rebuild, and will still be an 0-290. That's a RReeaaaallly optimistic $10K, if you can come up with parts.

Add that $20K minimum, $36K or more realistically, to the $30K to $45K and you've spent..... Minimum...$50K..... Realistically $70K.

Sure..you can move the numbers around abit, but you're looking at the cost of a servicable PA-18-150.

I'd run from this a/c. It's no rare bird worthy of restoring as the last of it's breed.

Spend your money wisely, and don't make any emotional decisions when buying an a/c, Cub, or otherwise.

Dave Calkins.

Thanks for all the info. I plan on keeping this plane for a long time, so I do want to get the right one. I am in the aircraft parts biz (I work for a 135 op with 21 planes), so I get the right deal on parts, but I would rather spend the money on mods, not basic stuff that should have been airworthy in the first place. But if the price is right?

I'm 6'3" and 235, and always carry too much stuff. A good 150 is probably what I ought to look for, and flying the Alcan would be a kick too.

Man, the sun is shining, the river is freezing up, ought to be out flyin'!

Paul, Check the primary structures, fuselage tubing, wing spars/ribs, for corrosion and damage. I'd have to assume the fabric is not cotton? Remember, paint don't make it fly.

If the primary structures are good, (If you see a lot of rust, bent tubes, splices, walk away), and you can get it for under 30, that is nearing salvage price for a Super Cub. If the O290 checks out, and you think you can fly it for a few years while you save your penneys, a O320 conversion will be about 20K, recover/rebuild another 15to20k.

So... If you can get the plane for about 25 and it is flyable for a few years, then you spend 20 on the O320 conversion, and a while later spend 20 on the rebuild, you have 65K spent on a freshly rebuilt PA18-150, which is not out of line.

Of course, it is safer to spend the 65 now and buy a good PA18-150, but IF the primary structures are good, you may be able to spread the cost out over time, and eventually build the exact plane you want. Good luck.

I've armed myself with the inspection form out of rant and raves, looks like a great tool.

Gross weight question-is the 125 limited to 1500# gross? Is there a way to increase that to 1750 without going to a O-320 installation? I would really prefer buying a basic Cub and having a good time with my son upgrading things to have our "dream" PA-18.

You can upgrade to 1750 gw per stc 292al. Need hydrasorbs, pa18-150 cabane V, and 3 tubes welded in by your battery box.

Sounds to me like you?re looking for a family heirloom/life long project. Don?t feel bad, I was too. Given that, listen to the advice that you?re getting on this site. I agree with the guys about passing on this one and look for one with a solid foundation, unless I?m reading you wrong and you can get it for a really good price. From what I've heard from the guys that have 'been there and done that', a project can take you years longer and 10?s of thousands of dollars more to complete then you expected. I myself looked at many a plane before deciding on the plane that I bought. It was signed off as airworthy, but after many hours of inspection, it turns out that it was anything but. As an employee of a 135 operation you should know what I mean! What you see up front and what you see underneath are two different things. Know what you want and take your best stab at what you?re getting. I was willing to take on some known defects, and knew that there would be surprises alone the way too, but I wanted to fly (soon), so I wasn?t willing to take on a project. Hey, just for the fun of it, ask the seller if he?s willing to repair any defects that your Inspector finds? Then you?ll appreciate why the good ones are valued so high.

Beware of "bargains".

I just finished my SC project. My problem was that the airplane was originally built for the army in 1951. When they finished with it it was auctioned to a buyer in Mexico who converted it to an AG sprayer. When they had wrecked it so many times that it could no longer be repaired a scrap dealer in Houston acquired it and sold it to a non-pilot who thought it might be fun to learn to fly in a Cub. He paid $35K for it. Poor guy knew nothing about airplanes, had no prebuy inspection and got screwed. I got involved when he offered me a partnership if I would do the work if he bought the parts. It took almost 4 years and I literlly bought a new airplane one piece at a time. If either of us had realized what we were getting into we may have gone to CC and bought a new one. New fuselage, new wings, tail feathers, control surfaces, rebuild the O-320, new prop, and some (but not all) of the available mods. Bottom line about $90k in parts alone (I did all the labor).

Little did I know that it would be almost as much work to do the paperwork with the feds as it was to build the airplane. When I got ready to do the paperwork I found that military airplanes do not get an Airworthiness Certificates or Data Tags both of which are required to be a legal airplane. It took 4 months of wrangling with piper for the Data Tag and the FISDO for the Airworthiness Certificate but I finally got it done.

Moral to the story: The first item you need to purchase is a Data Tag and log books. If you have those you are perfectly legal to assemble an airplane around them as long as all the parts are PMAed or STCed. Get you friendly neighborhood IA to sign off the books and go flying.

Would I do it again? Maybe. I have a beautiful airplane that is built to my specifications. It is virtually brand new and I am intimate with every nut, bolt and screw. If you start now you may be ready to fly it by the time your son is old enough to get his license.

Cubs

I have said it before and I will say it again. " You can never build it cheaper then just going out and buying it the way you want it". Even if a guy rebuilt a Super Cub 5 years ago, to do the same job today would cost 20 - 30% more, parts have gone up that much. Guys ask me this all the time and I just tell them to save their money and buy a good late 70's or newer PA-18 as stock as they can find it. Slap on a set of 29-30" tires with HD gear with a Borer prop and go have a blast. That's all you really need on a Super Cub. Crash

Amen! Crash and Bob.

Those cheap ''deals" are NEVER what they seem.

Cavy, you usually get me to laugh with your posts.

I'd love to watch the response to the second to last sentence in your last post. That would be a laugh.

Paul, if you haven't heard it before, Never make an emotional decision when buying an a/c. I just had to write that again, I'm not sure what comes over people when they are buying airplanes, but I've seen some REALLY STUPID deals get made. I think guys are daydreaming about some future great flying day as they reach for the checkbook.

Dave Calkins.

Old Proverbs: "when someone gets something for nothing, someone gets nothing for something"

When its "almost to good to be possible, it most likely is" I

The search has begun. Looks like the weather is going to be good, so tomorrow eve I'll fly the 100 miles up river to take a better look at this plane. I like the idea of asking the current owner to fix anything we find wrong, yeah right! I'll bring my digital cam to capture the facial expressions.
I am one who likes to modify for personal wants/needs, but I am not into spending the next ?? years wishing I was flying it. My son is ready to go now!
There are quit a few cubs in Bethel, I need to go bum a ride in one to see what a good one feels like.

Thanks, Paul

Paul, This came out in Trade-A-Plane today. Sounds good and its in AK.

Piper Super Cub
PA18-150 (L21B), 1953, TT-3500, SMOH-700. 30'' Tundra tires, 8:50's, Atlee skis. New panel w/all new or OH instruments. Carb air temp, EGT/ CHT, ext. baggage, underseat storage, lw battery under seat, tail strobe, lifetime struts, all AD's. Excellent logs. '86 fabric in good condition. Covers: wing, tail, engine prop & spinner, wrap around cabin by Kennon. Well loved-- looking for a Maule (wife +2kids). $49,500. AK/(907)770-4263. http://tappix.com/620220

Good luck. I hate looking for an airplane.

Steve

Thanks Steve, that plane is in Anchorage, I should be getting in there in the next few weeks. Sounds like a good one to check out. Paul

Sounds like something worth looking at.

I feel sorry for the guy selling it... He's looking for a Maule to put his wife and kids in.

Dave Calkins.

Ow! That was pretty harsh Dave! Funny though! :lol:

Boy, as the new owner of a 150, reading this thread makes me REALLY anxious! I hope I got a fair deal on my machine. I think I did, but time will tell.

BCB