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Value of paperwork

I had another look at my data plate. It says "Piper" at the top, in a nice stylized lettering, the model, aircraft S/N, and a "Plate" S/N.

It sounds like someone could write a book or three about the evolution of record keeping around aircraft manufacturing. As an owner, and member of the marketplace of aircraft, I'm interested in how the presence or absense of particular paperwork impacts the "value" of a given airplane, but I guess it all just comes down to how much of a check gets written when it's time to shake hands.
 
I've visited with Clyde Smith on this very subject. For all the reasons cited above, there is no correlation between A/C serial number and any of the various part numbers, including the fuselage serial number except for the manufacturing records. Clyde even mentioned that is was common practice for the A/C and fuselage serial numbers to match at the beginning of the production life cycle of a particular model, and then drift apart when an occasional fuselage would be pulled from the assembly line for other purposes (testing, etc.). Sometimes that part would find its way back onto the line, sometimes it would disappear.

From rumors I've heard, getting Piper to give out those original production records is nigh on impossible... but there is another source. For $10, Clyde will look up that data in his personal records and get you the original Piper production serial numbers, as recorded when the factory released the airplane. I've haven't tried this for my PA-18, but I did get the data for my J4 -- even found out the original colors and dealer that the plane was shipped to. Fun stuff if the history matters to you.

Clyde still has no electronic access that I'm aware of... snail mail to Clyde Smith, Jr. PO Box 721, LockHaven PA 17745 works.

Rod
 
I had Clyde send me this info on my L18C. It included original weights at each wheel, original engine w/serial no., original prop w/serial no., manufacturing date, roll out date, fuselage frame serial no., wing serial no.'s, paint scheme, special equipment and remarks. It was interesting to me because my plane had none of the original logs from when it was in the Dutch military.

Steve
 
For Captain Fox.

If you haven't gotten an answer to your post on the 23rd of Sep.,
it's pretty easy to get that new Piper data tag.

I did it for a customer's PA-18 that I finished assembling in June last year.

I called my Principle Maintenance Inspector (PMI) from the Flight Standards District Office (FSDO), who came out to check the small fuselage "tag" welded to the diagonal tube located above the right thigh of the pilot. He wrote a letter stating the registration number ("N" number),the fuselage number, and the a/c serial number. He signed it as an FAA representative.

I sent this letter and a check to Piper, and received a new a/c data plate.

Pretty painless for me as the owner wrote the check for the new plate.

Dave Calkins.
 
Reviving an old thread - would it be odd to you if a Cub that was crashed and rebuilt only had logs from the rebuild and nothing prior? Let's say the books go back 15 years and the serial number goes back 60 years. Ultimately, an airplane is only as good as it's last annual so would something like that scare you off or impact the value?
 
Funny thing, I’m selling a 1947 Stinson project that’s about 75% complete. Have all the logs except the first year and the buyer is balking...... I could understand if it was missing the last year.
 
Wouldn't scare me off - logbooks are only required to be kept for a year - but, you must have total time of airframe, engine, and prop. Not " estimated 3000 hrs" but honest, researched, total time.

That said, logbooks and records are valuable. I am looking at a Cessna 185, and after two weeks we just found the airworthiness directives through 2008, all neatly signed off. It will only take about five hours to ensure that the engine recurrent ADs happen only at disassembly, but had we not found these, engine disassembly would be required, since an overhaul was logged with no reference to ADs.

I sold a Cherokee for $35000 with no logs. Told the buyer if they ever turned up, he could have them for an additional five grand. With logs the thing might have been worth 50.
 
TxAgfisher said:
Reviving an old thread - would it be odd to you if a Cub that was crashed and rebuilt only had logs from the rebuild and nothing prior? Let's say the books go back 15 years and the serial number goes back 60 years. Ultimately, an airplane is only as good as it's last annual so would something like that scare you off or impact the value?
Click to expand...

My first concern would be to make sure the Dataplate is Authentic. You can get all of the records from the FAA to be sure nothing fishy is going on.
 
TxAgfisher said:
Reviving an old thread - would it be odd to you if a Cub that was crashed and rebuilt only had logs from the rebuild and nothing prior? Let's say the books go back 15 years and the serial number goes back 60 years. Ultimately, an airplane is only as good as it's last annual so would something like that scare you off or impact the value?
Click to expand...

Depends on how well documented the rebuild is. I don't get real excited about every oil change etc before a rebuild but I do want documentation of all the mods and major repairs.
 
I remember when I got my Howard, the log book entry for the rebuild went “ This aircraft has been inspected and repaired in accordance to applicable Federal Aviation Regulations, see Work Order 025 for details.” No 337, no other details. It was over 2 years since it was done, so even if the repair station was still open, they had no requirement to keep records. I ended up writing a lot of 337s indicating work done by person or persons unknown but inspected and found to be in conformance.

A lot of the paperwork can be regenerated. If you have to pay someone to do it, it can get expensive. As Bob said, AD compliance is the biggest part. I’ve had customers with a PC-12 that had to pull the prop and send it for overhaul again, since they had it done in Mexico by an agency that wasn’t a US repair station.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I thought repair station keeps records for 7 years.... and the work order is like a 337. (Been a many years since I did that..)????


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
Nope, only 2 years. The repair station I ran would purge the files every 6 months. Prior to purging, we got a violation for something on a WO that was about 6 years old. After that, we only kept records for the minimum amount of time. If it is there, it is fair game for FAA to review. If it’s gone, they can’t hang you on it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
This is fascinating. To do a major alteration you need approved data. Normally that appears on your 337 one way or another, but if an official repair station does it, all you need is a log entry referencing the repair station ID and the work order number.

Suppose for one second that the aircraft logs are lost. What next? Repair station says "yeah, we only keep those for two years. We will be happy to inspect your alteration."

I am very close to spotting something like that - logs are present, receipts are present, but no log entry. A big deal?

edit: Happiness! I found the entry, with repair station and work order #. This kind of searching is not as simple as it sounds; I missed it the first time through. Better not lose this fragile tattered original log!
 
Last edited:
bob turner said:
This is fascinating. To do a major alteration you need approved data. Normally that appears on your 337 one way or another, but if an official repair station does it, all you need is a log entry referencing the repair station ID and the work order number.

Suppose for one second that the aircraft logs are lost. What next? Repair station says "yeah, we only keep those for two years. We will be happy to inspect your alteration."

I am very close to spotting something like that - logs are present, receipts are present, but no log entry. A big deal?

edit: Happiness! I found the entry, with repair station and work order #. This kind of searching is not as simple as it sounds; I missed it the first time through. Better not lose this fragile tattered original log!
Click to expand...

Bob, not true. A repair station can do a major repair and only reference the work order, but if they do a major alteration they are still required to file a 337. Unfortunately a lot of repair stations (and their FAA inspectors) don’t understand that little nuance in Part 43 Appendix B.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
TxAgfisher said:
.... would it be odd to you if a Cub that was crashed and rebuilt only had logs from the rebuild and nothing prior? Let's say the books go back 15 years and the serial number goes back 60 years.....
Click to expand...

That wouldn't necessarily seem odd.
For example, in 2008 I bought a C150/150TD that had been wrecked up in Alaska in 1997.
The guy I bought it from had a mechanic shop on the Omak WA airport,
& had bought it from the salvage outfit that used to be there at Omak.
I was surprised that the paperwork was complete-- logbooks, 337's, W&B's, etc, all the way back to day one.
I figured that when an airplane is totalled out,
the owner is probably not gonna be too concerned about making sure all the paperwork goes along with what's left of the airplane--
esp if he didn't have insurance.
 
Dave - stunning information. One of my students just got an IA, so figuring he was up to date, I double-checked with him. He and I are equally mis-informed! He said they went into that in depth in the little boot camp class. I will check further.
 
Just for clarity: when referring to a “data plate,” is the reference to the rectangular stamped black plate screwed to some wooden structure in the airplane, the ID plate riveted to the outside of the plane, or the stamped number welded somewhere onto the fuselage?

Doesn't Wagaero sell blank Piper rectangular “data plates” that can be stamped to match by the aircraft owner? And who’s to say that any of the above mentioned “data plates” aren’t original or valid?
 
bob turner said:
Dave - stunning information. One of my students just got an IA, so figuring he was up to date, I double-checked with him. He and I are equally mis-informed! He said they went into that in depth in the little boot camp class. I will check further.
Click to expand...

When you read 43 Appendix B, you will see paragraph (b) says “For major repairs made . . .” And goes on about referencing the work order. It does not reference major alterations in that sub paragraph. Paragraph (a) says each person. Part 1 defines a person as an individual, firm, partnership, corporation, company, association . . . So a Repair Station is a Person as referenced in 43 Appendix B paragraph (a), and is required to complete a 337 for major alterations.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Paul Heinrich said:
Just for clarity: when referring to a “data plate,” is the reference to the rectangular stamped black plate screwed to some wooden structure in the airplane, the ID plate riveted to the outside of the plane, or the stamped number welded somewhere onto the fuselage?

Doesn't Wagaero sell blank Piper rectangular “data plates” that can be stamped to match by the aircraft owner? And who’s to say that any of the above mentioned “data plates” aren’t original or valid?
Click to expand...

When we talk about a “Data Plate” we are referring to the “Identification Plate” referenced in the current 14 CFR 45.11 (a). Of course for all these airplanes built prior to November 1950, we can’t comply with the current 45.11(a) requirements since aluminum isn’t “fireproof”. We would need to comply with the requirement fo an identification plate that were in effect at the time the aircraft was built however.

The plate or other marking back by the tail is the identification data that the ATF required, and is codified in14 CFR 45.11 (e). Totally different requirement. This can be a metal plate, or just painted on and only has to be the aircraft model and serial, no other info at all. Just “PA-18-150” and “18-1234”, or whatever your airplane is.

Now, don’t get me started on who can determine if the data plate is original or valid! I just spent 2 1/2 years on that battle with my PA-16!


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Sold. My experienced mechanic friends agree - a 337 must exist for all major alterations, no matter who does them. One pointed out that there is a check-off block for repair stations.

You have no idea how valuable your contributions are. Thank you.
 
Paul Heinrich said:
Just for clarity: when referring to a “data plate,” is the reference to the rectangular stamped black plate screwed to some wooden structure in the airplane, the ID plate riveted to the outside of the plane, or the stamped number welded somewhere onto the fuselage?

Doesn't Wagaero sell blank Piper rectangular “data plates” that can be stamped to match by the aircraft owner? And who’s to say that any of the above mentioned “data plates” aren’t original or valid?
Click to expand...
Those Piper data plates from Wag Aero do t match the original Piper plates. Couple of threads here on the subject.
 
pak said:
I got into a disscussion with a builder of a homebuilt SC. Our debate was over the value of the paperwork necessary to make his cub certified, books, data plate and the like.....
Click to expand...

My take on this is this references an already-built airplane that the owner/builder now wants to be a certified Piper Cub?
Just buy a data plate & logbooks, rivet the plate on, and voila! it's done.
Don't think it works that way.
Any more so than removing the data plate & tail number from a factory supercub to turn it into an AB experimental.
 
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