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PA12 Flight Characteristics Vs. PA18

I notice that 12 owners are a tad grumpier then 18 owners ;-)

Glenn

Ooooo at the risk of hyjacking this thread. As the most consummate identifiable “Crotchety Old Fart” that I’m known to be by folk that know me. I have to take issue with the statement above. It’s been my experience here that that applies to more than just the 12 owners .:boohoo:p
 
Ooooo at the risk of hyjacking this thread. As the most consummate identifiable “Crotchety Old Fart” that I’m known to be by folk that know me. I have to take issue with the statement above. It’s been my experience here that that applies to more than just the 12 owners .:boohoo:p

There is no right side of the bed with Glenn--- that said---when I was thirty I was known as the "angry young man". Glenn is my hero of grumpy old guys.
 
When I was a young A&P I always wondered why all the Old mechanics were so Grumpy, I now know. Grumpy old pilots don't hold a candle to Grumpy Old Mechanics.
 
I became familiar with that term while serving in the U.S. Submarine Service. There the first 'F' stands for "Flying".
 
Again at the risk of side tracking this thread. In my experience, when you combine a crotchety Ol mechanic with a pilots license you have now created a soul that thinks everyone is entitled to their opinion. Practical examples of that have happened to me many times. The most recent was when I stopped at a little field for gas a state over from me. I get out of my weird little bird and was just walking around checking things out when up walks this guy who had an Ag operation. He takes in the view of me and my plane and proceedes to tell me why all the sh*t I have won’t work.
Not knowing me from Adam, this guy dissed on everything bout my little mount. I let him ramble without one interruption from the time he walked up to when he felt he’d bout covered it all. He stood waiting for my response, After I looked at the lady who came out to pump my gas and realized he was someone who had been allowed to much chain to run on , I proceeded to explain DILLIGAFF to him in a very animated way .
Evidently , he understood the definition. He had no other questions or statements after that .:yikez:
 
Again at the risk of side tracking this thread. In my experience, when you combine a crotchety Ol mechanic with a pilots license you have now created a soul that thinks everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Not sure what being a mechanic with a pilot's license has to do with anything but I am entitled to my own opinion regardless. Whether or not I voice my opinion with my inside voice or my outside voice is up to me but in a lot of instances some things are better left unsaid. A lot of people probably think my Super Cub is a POS and that is their opinion and don't GAF unless they want to pay for it.
 
Not aiming nothing Steve . Just expanding on life experience. Not sure of your age, I’m pushing the big 6 oh. And have to remind myself sometimes....smart as I think I am....some just think I’m a smart** .
In my experience, Some of my geriatric Brethren haven’t learned that.
Your tag line from Mr Rogers sums it up well!
 
When I was a young A&P I always wondered why all the Old mechanics were so Grumpy, I now know. Grumpy old pilots don't hold a candle to Grumpy Old Mechanics.

Steve---wait til you hit 70. At that point you can say pretty much anything to anyone and not care. My assessment of Donald trump is not that he is intemperate, thoughtless, senile, or slipping his gears-- he's simply over 70 and he doesn't give a F***k what he says and who he is saying it to. It's an age thing.
 
Steve---wait til you hit 70. At that point you can say pretty much anything to anyone and not care. My assessment of Donald trump is not that he is intemperate, thoughtless, senile, or slipping his gears-- he's simply over 70 and he doesn't give a F***k what he says and who he is saying it to. It's an age thing.

But............ you've had this attitude for the last 50 years?

Glenn
 
They say a -12 with a -360 is nose heavy. yes till you add the weight in the extended baggage and possibly the tail or just a 150-200# passenger in the back seat. OR, Could be fixed with a Cato or Sensenich wood prop, thus loosing about 60-70# out of the plane to have it fly the same. It will go from cruise to landing with no trim adjust as you will need to hold the stick back a little till first notch flaps 75MPH then as you slow and add more flaps you just land it NO trim needed.

Doug
 
They say an -18 with a 360 is nose heavy. The two approved 0-360 installations I know of for a -12 use short mounts to correct the CG. A few exp -18 builders have shortened their mounts to counter added weight from big engines, too.

FWIW, my old short mount 160hp -12 flew better with a passenger or aft cargo load, too.
 
They say a -12 with a -360 is nose heavy. yes till you add the weight in the extended baggage and possibly the tail or just a 150-200# passenger in the back seat. OR, Could be fixed with a Cato or Sensenich wood prop, thus loosing about 60-70# out of the plane to have it fly the same. It will go from cruise to landing with no trim adjust as you will need to hold the stick back a little till first notch flaps 75MPH then as you slow and add more flaps you just land it NO trim needed.

Doug
Your numbers are just a tad optimistic Doug. Going from a Mac/Borer to a Catto on a 360 is going to save about 22 lbs. I wouldn't bother with the Sensenich wood prop. The efficiency isn't all that good.
 
Your numbers are just a tad optimistic Doug. Going from a Mac/Borer to a Catto on a 360 is going to save about 22 lbs. I wouldn't bother with the Sensenich wood prop. The efficiency isn't all that good.[/QUOTE


Yes you are right about numbers, but this is what I find.

Yep 22# off the nose
6# weight in the tail
about 15# in a battery can go to a dry cell battery
about 40# out of the extended baggage
This gets the same EWCG to fly the same

That's the numbers I get with a change in prop.

EWCG is at 13.6 with EW 1310# add the extra weight in the extended baggage and the CG goes back to 15.6 and this really makes a difference in flight characteristics.
AT the EWCG it is nose heavy and will not flair out well add the weight in the extended baggage or a 150# person in the back seat and now flies great.

Doug
 
One should not forget that the Cruiser CG issue is directly
Related to the fact it is a 3 place certified aircraft. An 18 is not. In Alaska we flew 18's with the guides in the baggage and client In rear seat for years; and it was very hard on the tail, and always turns into a much longer distance to get the tail up, with all that weight that far aft in the 18. Leaving it down was certain to shear off Pawnee springs as fast as you could bolt them on. When I got my first 12 that same load, was MUCH easier to fly; with the other body up under the wing. The Cruiser tail comes up twice as fast as an 18 will, with a 180lb person in the baggage. ( spare me the legal baggage limits). So for us, and that mission: 'hauling 2 guys out in one trip'
The 12's had a huge advantage, in real ruff stuff hauling two passengers in one trip . So we often had to make 2 trips with the 18's , so you wound up using a ton of extra fuel.... Wasting alot of extra time.

As far as aileron response comparisions? there really isnt any. The Cruiser has it all over the 18's. The only one that would argue that; is if they never flew a Cruiser? or was smokin Crack????? :wink:
The CG on an 18 is at an advantage right out of the gate, when hauling one person.
12's will benifit alot more from lightweight starters, alternators, Odessey batterys etc. Catto props and short mounts are big items. But no doubt the correct CG: is always going to be the root of the mystery: when you fly a Cruiser and she lands slower; And gets off better: Than any you have ever flown before? Of course a 1075 lb 12; is a different animal than a 1350lb one too! If your experimental; simply moving your battery back down the fuselage until you get the correct CG, is way ahead of hauling lead around to achieve the same thing???
And as "old Supercrow" has always maintained...." Nothing is as important as a correct CG"
And he has a whole wall full of trophys; for TO contests he has won at Greenville over the last 40 years.
 
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Interesting when the thread ended no one chimed in on the actual merits of a Catto prop on a standard long mount that is always way forward CG when coupled with
A Borer prop? Removing 17/18 lbs out on the end of the crankshaft will certainly change the age old empty CG curse?? One should also keep in mind that lots of times
When folks are expounding the merits of 18 vs 12s they are commonly comparing 1250/1300 lb 12s to 1100lb 18s. A light 12 that is" rigged up the same" as the 18; should be just the difference of the AOI of the two wings
All things equal?? However the old saying "only thing that
Will beat a cub; is another cub" : Will always be true. But when you think your Cub is a hotrod try it against Greg Peppards 12 some day! LoL

E

I agree with TurboBeaver, and can’t stress more the merits of the lightweight Catto prop on the standard long mount with 160hp and balanced tail -12. Night and day flight characteristics removing that weight off the nose. That along with VG’s and Cub Crafters gap seals on the tail make it an absolute joy to fly. Prior to those changes she had the negative’s characteristics many folks identified/mentioned earlier.
Don’t get any better than a light weight well balanced properly rigged cub. Whether it’s a -12 or -18.




Sent from my iPad using SuperCub.Org mobile app
 
There are so many variables---empty weight---rigging----etc---etc. Pilot skills and FEEL for his/her airplane. Have flown a number of Super Cubs that are "supposedly" stock---and seldom find any two that fly the same. Piper had some "variables" in there building process also. Just part of what keeps it all so interesting:???:

That's the response I was looking to find. PA-12s tend to have too much stuff on the panel, and lots of times no flaps, incomparable with a well balanced Cub. I owned an 800lb PA-12-140 on edo 2000s, a 1200 lb PA-18-150 on edo 2000s and a 1000 lb PA18-105 then converted to 150 on wheels all at the same time. All three airplanes had flaps and PA18 tail feathers. Impossible to compare the floats to wheels, but the two on edo's performed almost identically. I like the PA-12 better to do float instruction in because a lot of large Americans want float ratings, the -12 is easier for them to get in and out of, and the panel was arranged so that the airspeed was far left, so I could keep better track of it (although I do find a PA18 easier to feel...maybe simply because I have no other option in the PA-18s I've done training in). The PA-12-S was extremely docile and controllable, everybody loved it and thought it was the easiest plane ever to fly. Being so light definitely was a major contributor to that. It was a little nose heavy, even with the shorter engine mount and 10lbs added in the far aft of the tail, so that if an applicant was over 250 lbs, pushing 300, they would run out of nose up trim (to my 125 in the backseat), and at times I would switch with them an have them fly from the roomier backseat for the added performance. I love them both, but for my own personal flying, I'll take my Cub any day over the Cruiser. I don't know why. It just fits.
 
Doesn't the 135hp 290 weigh essentially the same as a 320? Not busting your chops, I'm just interested. My old-12 was a joy to fly on EDO 2000s.
 
That was the weight of each before floats...it was actually 700+. I couldn't remember how much the floats added compared to wheels (200?). The PA12 was stripped down to bear mins: minimal paint, minimal panel, no interior, no cabin heat, no alternator, etc. The PA12 was one of the few that came from the factory with flaps.
 
Doesn't the 135hp 290 weigh essentially the same as a 320? Not busting your chops, I'm just interested. My old-12 was a joy to fly on EDO 2000s.

The O290D2 weighed less. It was the best power to weight ratio engine Lycoming made. I don't know why they quit it. Old Cub ag-pilots routinely say that was the best performing power on Cubs they sprayed with.
 
That was the weight of each before floats...it was actually 700+. I couldn't remember how much the floats added compared to wheels (200?). The PA12 was stripped down to bear mins: minimal paint, minimal panel, no interior, no cabin heat, no alternator, etc. The PA12 was one of the few that came from the factory with flaps.

From TC A-780
Landing Gear and Floats,
204. Edo 89-2000 floats with water rudder and seaplane fin (Dwg. No. 11030) +183 lbs. (+14.5)


+183 lbs was the added weight. The floats themselves weigh aprox. 266 lbs. That 800 lbs is still difficult to imagine and very hard to believe.
 
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