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Should I buy a 2nd plane- " fast family hauler"

When I was a couple hundred hour pilot I probably would have been less hesitant - not knowing what I didn't know.
I've been holding my tongue waiting for someone to mention this. A student pilot with dreams is eager to learn. A newly minted Private pilot has a license to learn. When a pilot accrues around 200 hours he begins to think he knows all the answers. By the time he has 600 hours, he knows he has all the answers. When he approaches 1000 hours he is beginning to think he doesn't know it all. After 1000 or so hours he realizes there is still a lot to learn. He then starts to become a safe pilot.

It strikes me that Cardiff is approaching that 200 hour mark. Be careful Cardiff. In the past there have been a lot of "doctor" stories. People who have the funds to buy any airplane they want. They get a new Private license, rush right out and buy a new Bonanza or Malibu or some other high performance airplane to take their family places. The next thing you know, they are mentioned on the evening news, not in a very happy report.

Getting an instrument rating has been mentioned. Yes, this is a very useful learning experience and does give you the authority to fly in the clouds. However, procuring and maintaining proficiency to safely fly in the clouds with the distraction of a wife and kids is another story altogether. It takes a lot of time after getting the ticket to become at ease in the IFR environment. IFR flying particularly solo, is a highly concentrating affair. Outside distractions can spell disaster. Maintaining proficiency to the FAA's standards is only for paperwork requirements. In order to become and to maintain proficiency one must fly within the IFR system a lot. If not, when the chips are down and the weather drops to minimums, well........................ Getting the ticket to be able to keep you out of trouble is more likely to get you into trouble, if you do not "live" within the IFR environment.

If you still wish to get a second airplane for those special trips with family, get one of the many mentioned fixed gear airplanes, with a nose wheel. There are several good ones. With the fixed gear -18 as your primary airplane and a retractable airplane for the secondary airplane ......... well far more experienced pilots than you have neglected to extend the gear. This is particularly more of an issue when jumping from one type to the other.
 
Excellent post Pete. Well said.

Cardif - listen to the advice from skywagon, he has a lifetime of experience, has "been there done that" and is sharing his vast knowledge with you. Heed his advice.

Bill
 
I’m glad internet forums weren’t around when I bought my 180. All I got from my circle of high-time pilot friends was encouragement. Any pilot needs to exercise good judgement in any airplane they fly, every time they fly it. Nose draggers aren’t exempt.

Spring gear isn’t a problem. Regardless of what is said about it it doesn’t bounce airplanes into the air any more that bungees do. Excessive airspeed coupled with a sudden increase in AOA is responsible for that. Control what you’re supposed to control. On days when the conditions aren’t fun I can go in and out of places when my Cub neighbors won’t fly. Don’t underestimate the utility of a stock-winged Skywagon. Sometimes heavier wing loading is a good attribute. Skywagons are wonderful airplanes. So versatile. Very durable. And these days, very valuable. There’s good reason for that. There’s nothing wrong with a nose dragger if that suits your purpose. There’s nothing wrong with a tail dragger if it’s what you prefer. Learn to fly whatever you buy and enjoy the ride.
 

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With all due respect stewartb, how much time did you have in your XP before you moved to your 180? How much time (not hours, but years) have you spent instructing others from all walks of life how to fly a variety of airplanes? Cardiff is a brand new pilot. We (except for Bob Turner) only know him through this forum. We will advise him from a conservative safety conscious perspective based upon decades of witnessing aviation events happening. If we were based at Cardiff's airport and had a close personal understanding of his abilities, then we might be more aggressive in our recommendations with caveats.
 
Me? 200 hours in my XP almost exclusively on floats. Transitioned into a 180 on tires with about 6 hours of Tom Warleigh’s time. Loved every second of it. Highly recommend the same for Cardiff.
 
Thats it!

Its a fun little surf town buried in the metropolis of Southern California.

I have since relocated to Central Oregon but lived there for many many years.

My gold claims were on the Umpqua and off the Rogue - Myrtle Creek/Merlin areas. Matt Mattson gold in any search engine will get you on them and more.

To the point, I've had a re-think - I'm not sure I'd be flying any infant and toddler just yet. They're still developing and the noise would be excruciating. I don't see how to keep them protected.

I have engines running in my brain 24/7 - I'd sure hate for that to happen to them.

I'm probably in the minority here. Good luck.
 
Before I'd fly the young I'd seek a physician's advice. Their ears are developing and that can make them sensitive to changes in air pressure, unusual movement, and sounds. No need to develop an avoidance at an early age to flying or riding in a road vehicle for that matter. Some of us may recall that experience from our youth.

Gary
 
My daughter grew up in airplanes, jet boats, and on snowmachines. I wouldn’t change a thing, and I’m pretty sure she’d agree. So many good memories. If you don’t share your adventures with your kids, who will?
 
The Twin Comanche was mentioned, I’m interested in one but am concerned about maintenance and parts availability, any advice is appreciated. I’m multi and IFR rated,
Steve
 
The Twin Comanche was mentioned, I’m interested in one but am concerned about maintenance and parts availability, any advice is appreciated. I’m multi and IFR rated,
Steve
Love that airplane. The later ones had a different airfoil on the stabilizer which made them less touchy on landings. If you want speed, the single engine PA-24B and C models were faster.
 
The Twin Comanche was mentioned, I’m interested in one but am concerned about maintenance and parts availability, any advice is appreciated. I’m multi and IFR rated,
Steve

Parts are available, you just need to look. Like all old airplanes, they require some attention, particularly the gear system. There is a 1000 hour AD that can be costly. I’m up to almost $5k just in parts for that inspection. Takes about 30 hours to do the inspection. If you are looking to buy, best to find one that it was just done. The singles have more ADs than the twins. Just have someone that knows Comanches review the logs to be sure the heavy hitters are done! Insurance on twins can be prohibitive. Kind of like seaplanes. I’m planning on just liability for mine.


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Thanks for the response, I’m aware of the gear and stabilator AD’s , I have a full coverage Ins quote of 4900. Just nervous about parts availability in the future.
 
If your wife is interested in flying, then definitely get something you can use to fly the whole family. We got a 4 place Bearhawk when our kid was born and haven't regretted it. Theoretically it doesn't get in and out as short as the Cubs, but it gets into almost all the fun places in the north east. And it can hauling the family and our camping gear, bikes, or skis. We just took it to Alaska and back for an epic adventure. It wouldn't have been the same for just one person to fly and leave the family behind.

As for headsets and little kids, our baby was less than a month old on his first flight. We bought ear muffs targeted at rock concerts. We never had an issue with him pulling them off or them falling off. Usually he just fell asleep as soon as the motor started. Now he complains if he has to sit in back. He wants to be up front flying.

Emilie

P.S. Give your wife the Cub as a hand me down and everyone will be happy. ;-)
 
Get a Cirrus SR20. Do their free transition training. An older used SR20 (2003 - 2005) is highly safe, fast, capable and economical. The SR22 is more than you need right now. Flying a Cirrus is also a great way to make sure that the few truly judgmental jerks in the aviation world will avoid you. :lol:

The Cub and the Cirrus have different uses. I have both (and a Maule). I fly the SR20 for moderate distances (3-6 hour trips) and the Cub just like you do because it's the funnest plane in the world. The Maule is going to be more and more for backcountry camping as I retire, but that's a whole different story.

There are no better stores of financial value than carefully chosen planes and carefully chosen real estate right now, given the devaluation of other paper investments through inflation.

The wise old men on the forum are correct. At your experience level (no IFR), you are probably not a strong pilot yet. But if you don't actually go flying like THEY did at the beginning, you will never improve. You will find that putting your wife and kids in the plane with you is the best incentive ever to become the best pilot that you can be.
 
Twin Comanches, I had 2 of them and put about 2500 hrs on them. One A model and one B counter rotator. The last one was 170kt which was fast for them. They are faster than the singles by quite a bit. They are maintanence hogs if they were not continually cared for. Get tip tanks. Good ones a great and will fly off on one engine if not real heavy. Won’t carry much ice.

Jim
 
I can't believe no one has mentioned this very old saying before, but here it is.

If it flies, floats, or, ...er...ah.... giggles in bed, it is cheaper to rent.

That's the first alternative. The second one is a partnership. In that case, like a marriage partner, choose wisely.

I am a long time PA-11 owner that will also be in need of a transportation airplane eventually. A Cessna 185 or 195 would be my ideal, but I can't justify the expense when a Cessna 182 in equivalent condition and age is cheaper. I prefer tailwheel airplanes as well, but I don't prefer them tens of thousands of dollars worth. I'm not sure the value is there in any of those airframes when I would only be operating the airplane 100 hours a year or less. A partnership with one or two partners makes ownership in a second airplane much more viable. A tricycle gear airplane opens up more partner prospects and helps reduce the cost of hull insurance. A fixed gear airplane helps in this regard as well as lowering maintenance costs.
 
My wife was pregnant with our first when I learned to fly. Doc didn’t quite know how to respond when we asked all the ‘noise’ questions, but did a little homework. I don’t remember when our ears develop, but babies do hear inside mom! Our Doc suggested some type of covering while flying, which worked out to be a thick coat as it was cold. Once our kids were born, we used the silicone plugs that some infants wear while swimming to keep water out of their ears. That worked like ‘muffs’ and never came out inadvertently. It really didn’t matter much, though, because as has been mentioned the kids all went to sleep quickly. We took our kids with us and never had any major issues. We also did some competitive shooting and the same applied for hearing protection whilst shooting. Good luck with your decision.
 
Build some hours, save some money. Get the instrument ticket, not so much for launching into the clouds but the training and the ‘what ifs’




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Great dilemma. I’m in a similar boat. PA-18 and a maule m5, which has been my family hauler around idaho, and I like it a lot. The barn door is great and it flies fast than the cub. Problem is a friend let my wife sit in a bonanza, and now she likes it way more (some friend). I suppose it’s more suitable in the sticks than a Mooney. I’m not a good enough pilot to take the whole fam to challenging soft strips anyway. For me, cub is the local play machine, maule (like Steve) for >100 miles, and the thought of a 160+kt for that 500 mi radius would be sweet. Maybe a club is the way to go…


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Right after I got my private certificate, I joined a flying club with a 172 and Cherokee 180. It was an equity club, meaning you had to "buy in" to the two airplanes. Cheapest flying I have ever done in my life (did almost all my other ratings except multi / MEI in the club planes - which later included an Arrow). It also exposed me early on to the world of maintaining airplanes and had a great group of mentors.

As others have said, a good partnership or club is a great way to share costs. I have been in both. People always say airplane partnerships are bad, but if you carefully define the understandings of the partnership in advance (plenty of examples out there), it can be really great.

sj
 
To the point, I've had a re-think - I'm not sure I'd be flying any infant and toddler just yet. They're still developing and the noise would be excruciating. I don't see how to keep them protected.

I have engines running in my brain 24/7 - I'd sure hate for that to happen to them.

I'm probably in the minority here. Good luck.


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This in a nutshell.
First time you take them down from altitude or have to get home on a hot day, you'll lose a young pilot.
Start out with short early morning flights when they are old enough to enjoy it. then see how they develop
You might have one that really can't handle much traveling in anything.
Then maybe when they (and You) are ready for traveling pick the airplane you can be proficient in and go for it.

Edit.
That does not preclude you from getting one now, and really getting proficient in it for when the time comes that you can do family outings.
But we all know what will happen if you have it.
 
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OP - we all start at like you, dream big! Very few people actually fly enough recreationally to "justify" maintaining two airplanes. If you can do it and accept that both of them are toys and that you are throwing away $50k or whatever a year then go for it.

Agree with the other comments, expecting the family to be ready to pick up and roll with limited time in your desired platform without being IFR probably isn't the best idea.
 
When I was going through a divorce, my youngest was only 2 or 3. She had been flying since she was a month old, so not new to flying. At the time I was working weekends towing gliders. The weekends I had the her, I would strap her in the back of the SuperCub and she would ride back there all day. Some days well over 30 tows. Never bothered her, most days she would nap back there a good part of the day.


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Thanks for all the feedback.

All this chat of 206's got me looking at those. I still like the 185's but a 206 may be the smarter choice I reckon.

Nearly all the 206's I see are "turbo." I know nothing about turbo's. I do know they keep you engine thinking it's sea level up to 17,000 feet.

When would a buyer want to be looking at turbos? When would they want find a naturally aspirated?

Thanks.
 
Stay away from turbo'd engines unless you have a specific need for one. The maintenance costs are considerably higher than naturally aspirated engines and, or maybe because, many operators do not run them correctly. They need clean oil, close monitoring, and correct cool down procedures.

Web
 
Probably going to regret saying this but buy a nice maule and just get by . Kids grow up fast and soon you will be flying a lot of the time with no need for 4 seats. I have gone back and forth on cubs, maules back to cubs, back to maule and now a scout. I too fly in your neck of the woods. NEVER have wanted a ifr ticket with the mountains between my farms . If its that bad I stay on the ground. just my twow cents.
 
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