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Young Eagles and Boy Scouts...No Two Place Aircraft!

Wow! That was a surprise! The quoted section above is from the "Prohibited Activities" section of the BSA Policy document. The way I read that, flying is a prohibited activity, regardless of the fact that the Aviation Merit Badge requirements include performing two of the following:
a) take a flight in an airplane and report on it,
b) perform a pre-flight inspection of a light airplane, or
c) plan a VFR cross-country using an aeronautical chart (my simplification of the statement).
Right hand, meet left hand... (Let's give those kids instructions to do something that Scouting HQ has determined to be a prohibited activity...)

Two local EAA chapters I work with have been flying entire Boy Scout troops, at the request of the scout leaders. I now realize that those are not only unsanctioned, but prohibited activities, and we should NOT be doing them. As the Young Eagles coordinator for our chapter, I will decline such requests in the future, and instead request that the scout leader have the individual parents contact me to arrange a Young Eagles flight for their kid. We will no longer make those flights as part of an "organized" scouting activity.

Sad times.
 
Wow! That was a surprise! The quoted section above is from the "Prohibited Activities" section of the BSA Policy document. The way I read that, flying is a prohibited activity, regardless of the fact that the Aviation Merit Badge requirements include performing two of the following:
a) take a flight in an airplane and report on it,
b) perform a pre-flight inspection of a light airplane, or
c) plan a VFR cross-country using an aeronautical chart (my simplification of the statement).
Right hand, meet left hand... (Let's give those kids instructions to do something that Scouting HQ has determined to be a prohibited activity...)

Two local EAA chapters I work with have been flying entire Boy Scout troops, at the request of the scout leaders. I now realize that those are not only unsanctioned, but prohibited activities, and we should NOT be doing them. As the Young Eagles coordinator for our chapter, I will decline such requests in the future, and instead request that the scout leader have the individual parents contact me to arrange a Young Eagles flight for their kid. We will no longer make those flights as part of an "organized" scouting activity.

Sad times.

Jim,

No offense, but your reading skills might need some work. What that section prohibits is flights in hang gliders, ultralights, Experimental aircraft, and on an aircraft on a SAR mission.

I don’t see any prohibition from fulfilling the requirements you noted, as long as a certificated standard category plane is used. While owners may believe their Experimental planes to be as safe as certificated planes, I can understand why BSA would preclude them for this purpose.

MTV
 
Jim,

No offense, but your reading skills might need some work. What that section prohibits is flights in hang gliders, ultralights, Experimental aircraft, and on an aircraft on a SAR mission.

I don’t see any prohibition from fulfilling the requirements you noted, as long as a certificated standard category plane is used. While owners may believe their Experimental planes to be as safe as certificated planes, I can understand why BSA would preclude them for this purpose.

MTV
On the other hand, the fact that the Young Eagles program is sponsored by the Experimental Aircraft Association should be a clue that the flights might well be conducted in experimental aircraft...

I personally fly an experimental airplane for Young Eagle flights. The sponsoring organization is an Experimental Aircraft Association chapter. To date, over 50% of the pilots who volunteer to fly these kids are operating experimental aircraft. At our events, the kids beg to get to fly in the cool experimental aircraft. And when I'm not at the check-in desk (because I'm out flying kids myself), I have no control over the assignment of kids to airplanes, and whether those kids were submitted by their parents or by their scout leader (with the "parent" signature on the waiver form). And even for individual flights, the pilot might elect to fly an experimental aircraft without me knowing about that decision.

I know the degree of reticence a large number our chapter members expressed toward sponsoring Young Eagle flights, despite the EAA's liability policy that covers those activities. Knowing that people are already on a hair-trigger to sue the BSA (and anyone involved with BSA activities), I suspect that once people realize this document exists, our own policy will be what I articulated above. MTV, your EAA chapter can do what they want (and maybe all your members fly standard category certificated airplanes), but that is not the case for my chapter. As I said, it's a sad commentary on where the world is today.
 
On the other hand, the fact that the Young Eagles program is sponsored by the Experimental Aircraft Association should be a clue that the flights might well be conducted in experimental aircraft...

I personally fly an experimental airplane for Young Eagle flights. The sponsoring organization is an Experimental Aircraft Association chapter. To date, over 50% of the pilots who volunteer to fly these kids are operating experimental aircraft. At our events, the kids beg to get to fly in the cool experimental aircraft. And when I'm not at the check-in desk (because I'm out flying kids myself), I have no control over the assignment of kids to airplanes, and whether those kids were submitted by their parents or by their scout leader (with the "parent" signature on the waiver form). And even for individual flights, the pilot might elect to fly an experimental aircraft without me knowing about that decision.

I know the degree of reticence a large number our chapter members expressed toward sponsoring Young Eagle flights, despite the EAA's liability policy that covers those activities. Knowing that people are already on a hair-trigger to sue the BSA (and anyone involved with BSA activities), I suspect that once people realize this document exists, our own policy will be what I articulated above. MTV, your EAA chapter can do what they want (and maybe all your members fly standard category certificated airplanes), but that is not the case for my chapter. As I said, it's a sad commentary on where the world is today.

Im not being critical of Experimental aircraft at all.

I simply pointed out that the BSA policy does NOT preclude Scouts from riding in “aircraft”. And, Young Eagles isn’t the only operation that flys kids.

There’s nothing “experimental” about kids getting some flight experience.

MTV
 
There’s nothing “experimental” about kids getting some flight experience.

MTV
Unless they are prone to going nuts under stress and start grabbing the yolk and stomping their feet and other acts that are not a good thing in any moving vehicle.
Our chapter did a flight for "under privileged kids" before I was a member, not long before. It was not a good thing and is the basis why we/I am cautious and selective with "camps". The chapter actually discontinued the YE program after that until it's rebirth in '16 or 17.
 
....the pilot might elect to fly an experimental aircraft without me knowing about that decision......

I'm curious as to what sort of screening is involved re the pilots & airplanes doing YE rides?
Years ago, there was a YE event at my airport--
basically, anyone who wanted to hop rides with the kids was welcome to participate.
I don't recall much going on re checking pilot qualifications (current medical certificate & flight review, pax-carrying currency ),
or re checking the airplane's airworthiness (in annual, etc).
Also some years ago, there was a YE (or YE type) flight at a nearby airport, a plane crashed & killed some people.
I couldn't help but wonder if the two were related, and that accident could have been prevented
 
For me, I pretty well know who and what our pilots are, ability wise. I have turned away a few pilots from another chapter. Part way due to issues with questionable ethics as well one pilot taking the active for departure with another plane coming in above him, It was close and due to the awareness of the inbound pilot's awareness and ability it was a non issue.
But I then realized that chapter pockets all chapter credits in their own pockets. They probably did quite well filling pockets this past summer while EAA was doubling credits.
I do have a pilot who I will not ride with, but he is reliable so I consider this my issue.
FWIW I have pilots who fly 1 to 2 hours to fly my events while not flying any that are at their own airport, and that was before we started supplying free top quality burgers and dogs.
Paperwork, Primarily I go with EAA's requirement for youth protection and EAA member currency, all checked online. Being FAA AC 91.146 pilot hour does not apply to these events I do not look at any pilot or aircraft documents. Yes they need the $100,000 passenger policy but so far I consider the honor system acceptable, but now you have me thinking?
About pilot hours, at our chapter meeting a few days ago one of my top pilots brought up two of his students, one working on the PP and the other half way through his instrument training. Discussion if he being 17 and low hours can fly with us. A month ago he had an outer elevator hinge come apart on the C-150 he was flying whiel up at cruise. He brought it down at a distant airport. My opinion, he can fly with us.
One of the YE related crashes out in the Northwest was a mid air over the airport and another near the airport that would be the one in WA., sad they happened. Over here, at another chapter's event a C172 had and engine out on departure, landed in trees, all were OK. There have been a few others but statistics as 2.2 million youth rides with only a handful of nasty stuff is mighty impressive.
And as for prevention, all accidents can be prevented, yet no one yet knows how. Try and try something will go wrong and that is why we need to discuss them.

And mind you, I am no king of these events, I only want to see smiles.
 
Two place airplanes are approved for Scout rides.

I had offered to give rides in my super cub but was turned down because the Boy Scouts of America has developed a policy to protect their youth which prohibits Young Eagle flights in two place aircraft.

Randy

I am not an expert on the BSA policies nor do I think that they are all good or beneficial but I am unable to find any policies that state a Scout cannot ride in a two place airplane.
 
Wow! That was a surprise! The quoted section above is from the "Prohibited Activities" section of the BSA Policy document. The way I read that, flying is a prohibited activity, regardless of the fact that the Aviation Merit Badge requirements include performing two of the following:
a) take a flight in an airplane and report on it,
b) perform a pre-flight inspection of a light airplane, or
c) plan a VFR cross-country using an aeronautical chart (my simplification of the statement).
Right hand, meet left hand... (Let's give those kids instructions to do something that Scouting HQ has determined to be a prohibited activity...)

Two local EAA chapters I work with have been flying entire Boy Scout troops, at the request of the scout leaders. I now realize that those are not only unsanctioned, but prohibited activities, and we should NOT be doing them. As the Young Eagles coordinator for our chapter, I will decline such requests in the future, and instead request that the scout leader have the individual parents contact me to arrange a Young Eagles flight for their kid. We will no longer make those flights as part of an "organized" scouting activity.

Sad times.

The part of the Aviation Merit Badge requirements you quoted is incomplete. Here is the portion that you are commenting on:

2. Do TWO of the following:
  • Take a flight in an aircraft , with your parent's permission. Record the date, place, type of aircraft, and duration of flight, and report on your impressions of the flight.
  • Under supervision, perform a preflight inspection of a light airplane.
  • Obtain and learn how to read an aeronautical chart. Measure a true course on the chart. Correct it for magnetic variation, compass deviation, and wind drift to determine a compass heading.
  • Using one of many flight simulator software packages available for computers. "fly" the course and heading you established in requirement 2c or another course you have plotted.
  • Explain the purposes and functions of the various instruments found in a typical single-engine aircraft: attitude indicator, heading indicator, altimeter, airspeed indicator, turn and bank indicator, vertical speed indicator, compass, navigation (GPS and VOR) and communication radios, tachometer, oil pressure gauge, and oil temperature gauge.
  • Create an original poster of an aircraft instrument panel. Include and identify the instruments and radios discussed in requirement 2e.


I would prefer a Scout had an airplane ride any day possible because that gives the best example of what aviation is. But they can complete the merit badge with other options.

EAA can give Young Eagle rides to anyone including Scouts because you are operating under the auspices and guidance of the EAA. It is up to the Scout leaders to comply with the policies of the BSA so they, not you, bear that responsibility. I personally don't agree with the ban on experimental airplanes in the BSA policy but I don't get to make the policy and can understand why BSA states it as MTV explained previously. I think that Young Eagles is a fantastic program with a great track record and a positive, proactive outreach for EAA and General Aviation to reach the public.
 
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I am not an expert on the BSA policies nor do I think that they are all good or beneficial but I am unable to find any policies that state a Scout cannot ride in a two place airplane.

I recall that the policy is that no scout can be alone with any adult; ergo one pilot and one scout becomes problematic with that policy.

Lots of great programs out there for all kinds of things. They do great in a small scale, grow, become big enough that they need accountants and legal advice, then someone doesn't like something or one person does something they shouldn't, and the program becomes either mired in legal battles or mired in policy to the point it is hard to complete the mission.

To all of you out there that volunteer time, energy, money, airplane rides and such: THANK YOU!

At some point one must accept risk to live.
 
A rant,
Granted my short time in the BS was a long time back and was not a fit for me.
This is my 40th year in EAA. I have been involved in 5 chapters and President of the current one for 5 years. I currently am a member of 2 chapters at this time.
When I came to this chapter in March 5.5 years back to look it over it seemed pretty good, full room of people. Next meeting I handed in my check to join and soon realized there were a handful of people. Over that summer I came to realize that even the current Pres was not even an EAA member. This chapter was simply a local social club. Some one from out of the region had just introduced the YE program which was well received.
As we were coming on winter I decided my time there was done, I am a hands on builder and there was no interest in airplanes here. My last meeting, November if I recall talk about elections came up, and a minute later I was president. WTF? here I was, now the leader of the worst chapter in the East.
I have made the YE program grow, never really liked it, it was being run for numbers. Move the "kids" through. just get them in a plane and send them on. Ignore their parents, they take up time.
Now all that has changed, I do not ignore the parents, they are the most important part of a youths experience and forming their lives. No one else can or should be controlling a youths future. Well in good families at least.
So for me, the YE program I now run the parents get respect and are treated well. We spend as much time as we can with each. They all have a chance to ride with their child. So many think this YE program is for the child, yah, but without the parents on board they will not truly support or guide their own children's future. I am not running this program with the belief that I am making Airline Pilots. I run this program to expand young minds to what is out there. I try to form the forward thinking that this does not come easy and they need to plan and work for their future no matter what path they choose. And this path needs the understanding and support of their parents.

The BS flight program as with other week long camps separate the youth from the family. This is great for the parents that "need a break". A well run family does not "need a break".

We now have parents that have joined the chapter and are the most helpful members we have. We are coming up on the return of our annual "Leaf Peeper fly in breakfast" In the past it was where do we buy the cheapest product. Going into this one I emphasized I want the best food on the tables. It is the new to us Young Eagles parents that are taking the ball and running. They appreciate the quality first matters that I strive for.

I think with direction and effort involving the full family in the YE events will benefit the youth to a far greater extent than the way the Scouts or other camps run their program. Last thing I would ever want is taking my child somewhere not knowing if they are truly safe with the people running the operation. My YE parents are now part of the operation, and heck they get their share of flight time allowing them to appreciate what their child's excitement "or" fear is about.
My current YE program caters to Home Schooling families, next year this will reach out to the Catholic schools. Our new active parents are using regular state schools. We have been flying these youth and a few others all along during the shutdown.
Our list of other families from regular school systems are not responding to event invites, sad for their children who are loosing out.
 
Many years ago My employer had a a cutback furloughing and demoting some pilots. I was to be reassigned to New York on reserve. That didn't sit well with me so I took a leave of absence and spent a few months giving seaplane lessons and passenger hops with my 7GCB. During that time many neighborhood kids came by to hang around. A few years later a man stopped in, introduced himself and thanked me for taking his son for an airplane ride. I had no recollection of giving this particular ride. Apparently that ride had made such an impression that his son was now a back seater in some sort of spy plane for the military. This had nothing to do with the YE program and may even have preceded it, and nothing to do with the BS. But I will say it had all to do with kids hanging out around airplanes at the "local" and with the Dad coming to me with thanks, made me feel very good about helping to form just one person's future.
 
These rides have allot of power for forming the future and sure are nothing created by EAA. As we all know these stories date back to the early days of flight and I expect most of us have had one.
My first ride in a plane, my father who had been a B-25 pilot with 99 weather recon missions out of the Azores had quit flying after the war to raise a family. Late '50s rented a 182 on Nantucket. Being the youngest two my sister and I were in a jump seat back in the baggage. Can not say that flight over the Cape inspired me.
Much later when I had learned to weld, being 14-15 I got the task to replace rusty aft sections on a Vagabond, trade for rides, the rides had yet to start. Rode my bicycle cross town to the airport, 4B9, the owner, Charlie Duesenberg, was sitting out front, bored. We sat talking. After time he perked up, asked if I wanted to go up for a ride, sure. He stopped inside, came out with two leather caps and tossed me one. Short while later I found myself hanging from my belts in his Stearman. He did many maneuvers, we were up quite awhile.
Now that ride and given the task, my first task on an airplane was to fit and replace tubes on a PA15 when I was a young runt. They left an impression.
Today, the analytical mind in me still questions, how long can the Stearman remain inverted? Probably was only seconds but it left it's mark.
 
IMHO a key aspect of the YE program is not just allowing the kids to experience aviation,
but also good PR for aviation in general.
So the next time someone flies over their house, instead of bitching about the noise
maybe the parents will say "hey, I think that's the guy who gave little Johnny a ride last weekend".
 
I think I was an assistant scout master for about 10 years. Four of my sons went through the program start to finish. They all decided to do it on there own. It was not my decision, but they got support. They are better men now because of it. I see no opportunity today for the youth leadership experience they had. Helicopter parenting is so rampant some colleges have to tell parents "Its time time go home." Parents are doing everything for kids....Boys dont even organize a game of baseball in the neighborhood anymore. That Eagle project...the boy dreams it up, or partners with an organization, then casts a vision, gets permits, organizes sometime hundreds of hours and numerous work days.....and gets the job done. It was a good program.

But times change. and people get hurt, and sick men with deranged minds are involved and people sue.
 
Sometimes I wonder just how many young men were actually victimized,
and how many others are just piling on hoping to dig into some deep pockets.
"Free money" is a powerful motivation for some people,
as attorneys setting up class-action lawsuits know.
 
Sometimes I wonder just how many young men were actually victimized,
and how many others are just piling on hoping to dig into some deep pockets.
"Free money" is a powerful motivation for some people,
as attorneys setting up class-action lawsuits know.


I wondered the same thing for a long time. Then my world and belief in my elders was shattered when it became public, starting with a gentleman taking his own life and leaving a 'tell all' video of what happened to him by the local Boy Scout Leader/Superintendent/Principal. The same Superintendent/Principal I had in grade school and had great respect for.

When the news stories started to come out, I was still skeptical, so I asked around to some others I knew and was shocked to learn how many people actually knew about it.

The worst was some of the youth had told their parents, but due to the power over jobs, the predator was allowed to continue- even with their own children!

I know we are an aviation forum, but we have some of the best individuals humanity has to offer on here. Maybe we can help by supporting policy that prevents our youth be victimized.

From our local paper, one of many articles as the story came out:

https://www.chilkatvalleynews.com/s...s-allege-sexual-abuse-by-karl-ward/11690.html
 
Sometimes I wonder just how many young men were actually victimized,
and how many others are just piling on hoping to dig into some deep pockets.
"Free money" is a powerful motivation for some people,
as attorneys setting up class-action lawsuits know.
A good friend of mine who has now gone west was a retired judge. He was tasked after his retirement with helping to distribute the funds from the Catholic priest scandals to the victims. He told me there were several instances of people getting financial awards which he knew were not abused but because of the arraignments he still had to hand out the money.
 
I'm curious as to what sort of screening is involved re the pilots & airplanes doing YE rides?
Years ago, there was a YE event at my airport--
basically, anyone who wanted to hop rides with the kids was welcome to participate.
I don't recall much going on re checking pilot qualifications (current medical certificate & flight review, pax-carrying currency ),
or re checking the airplane's airworthiness (in annual, etc).
Also some years ago, there was a YE (or YE type) flight at a nearby airport, a plane crashed & killed some people.
I couldn't help but wonder if the two were related, and that accident could have been prevented
The EAA runs the Young Eagles program, and their requirements are pretty basic: valid PPL or higher, current for carrying passengers, has completed the Youth Protection Program training course online course and passed the EAA background check. The aircraft used for the flight must be airworthy under FAA rules, and insured (with specific minimums). There are also some restrictions on weather (VFR only) and location (takeoff and land from the same airport, with no intermediate stops). Any EAA member pilot can make Young Eagle flights if they meet those rules.

Chapter "events" on the other hand, must meet those same EAA guidelines for the pilots, but there are more "rules" about having two people who have completed the YPP available at all times, and a few other niceties. If you meet those rules, you can apply for an EAA insurance policy that offers a million dollars of liability coverage to the pilots and the EAA chapter.

Our particular chapter has more stringent rules, based on some experiences they had some years ago. We don't fly 8-9 year old kids at our events – the kids have to be at least 10. We require our pilots to have at least 250 hours as PIC before they fly with us. We have each pilot complete a "pilot's attestation" form where we articulate ALL of the requirements, and the pilot signs stating that the pilot and airplane involved meed those standards. We do allow one parent to fly with the child, provided there is a seat available in the plane, and the pilot agrees. But I would say 99% of our YE fly without their parents.

We do also offer "Eagle Flights" (another EAA program) to those adults who are interested in flying. Many YE parents do sign up to take those flights, and we do try to accommodate them outside of our "events".

I have not personally flown with any of our YE pilots, but we do have 3-4 CFIs in the chapter who have flown with most of them, and I've asked them if any of the pilots raised "red flags" with them. So far, none have done so. Our current chapter president is a younger guy with about 150 hours PIC. He can't fly at our events (chapter rules), but he does fly Young Eagles outside our events, and I'm happy to have him.
 
A good friend of mine who has now gone west was a retired judge. He was tasked after his retirement with helping to distribute the funds from the Catholic priest scandals to the victims. He told me there were several instances of people getting financial awards which he knew were not abused but because of the arraignments he still had to hand out the money.
I wonder how in the world he would claim he knew those people were not abused... He may have believed that to be the case. He may have even strongly believed that to be the case. But unless he was there every time that abusive pedophile was with that boy, he has absolutely no way of actually knowing anything...

I say this from the perspective of a 65 year old who was sexually assaulted by my father's best friend when I was a young teenager. My father did not believe me when I told him that the friend had molested me. He said I must have misunderstood... The fact that his friend had given me a good-paying job when I needed one carried more weight than my descriptions of the sexual assault that took place. My victimizer was not only one of his best friends, but was a deacon in his church, a veritable "pillar of the community" and a "role model" as a self-made businessman.

I on the other hand, was a naive teenager who grew up overseas with my missionary parents. I quickly realized that if my own father didn't believe me, the likelihood that anyone else would believe me was remote, at best. So I just quit the job (which my father convinced himself for years was because it was too boring) and moved on with my life. My statements were ignored and he continued to abuse others for years – until one of his own sons reported him the the authorities for abusing HIS son.

Somehow I managed to suppress those memories for 40+ years until someone else described a similar incident in their life, and it all came flooding back. Now every time some claims they "know" what happened to some poor abused kid I get pissed off all over again.

Were there possibly some people who took advantage of the church or the BSA for financial reasons? There certainly may have been a few of those. But there were plenty of real victims, and plenty of people in both organizations that helped cover it up. Trust me, very few people who come forward with this kind of story do so "for fun"... The stigma placed on the victims is pretty heavy.
 
I wonder how in the world he would claim he knew those people were not abused... He may have believed that to be the case. He may have even strongly believed that to be the case. But unless he was there every time that abusive pedophile was with that boy, he has absolutely no way of actually knowing anything...
That was a few years ago when we had that discussion, so I am unable to remember the details and my friend is no longer available to ask. He was a very smart and experienced judge who had an excellent intuition of the people brought before him. There was something in this particular case which didn't match his smell test. Something which prompted him to relate the circumstances to me over dinner one evening.
 
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