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Can a Non ELSA plane be flown LSA?

BC12D-4-85 said:
14 CFR part 91.323: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/91.323

Note the specific applications. And while my 1941 Taylorcraft was certified under TCDS A-699 as a normal category CAR 4a airplane, the +15% for Alaska ops doesn't apply.

The check pilot was an FAA employee and CFI. One point of the review was whether or not we could stay in compliance with the legal GW and Alaska's requirements for survival gear (http://dot.alaska.gov/stwdav/akfly.shtml), not if the GW has rubber bookends. Some call it a review - I call it a test.

Gary
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And, if I'm reading it right, it applies ONLY to certificate holders operating under Part 121 or Part 135, (plus the US Department of Interior), but not to regular Joe Pilot... And it sounds like there would be a formal document approving such an increase in GW issued by "the Administrator"...

I'd always heard it applied across the board, so I'm glad the question was asked and glad Gary posted the link to the pertinent section of 14 CFR...
 
JimParker256 said:
And, if I'm reading it right, it applies ONLY to certificate holders operating under Part 121 or Part 135, (plus the US Department of Interior), but not to regular Joe Pilot... And it sounds like there would be a formal document approving such an increase in GW issued by "the Administrator"...

I'd always heard it applied across the board, so I'm glad the question was asked and glad Gary posted the link to the pertinent section of 14 CFR...
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Yes, that supposed 15% over gross thing for Alaska has been a fairy tale for many years.

MTV
 
I flew a C-185 at +10-15% for 20 yrs as required. No damage but they do tend to complain. If the engine quits it's just a quicker elevator to the basement and it pay's the same as when lighter.

Gary
 
I did understand that the AK 15% thing applies only to part 121 & 135 but the SAME aircraft flying part 91 is no less "safe". I do NOT suggest flying over gross. My point is that worry about being 20# over gross with a overweight check pilot(or CFI) in the right seat is silly unless other factors like density altitude or field length, etc. make it problematic.

Also consider the fact that an aircraft well under gross may be just as problematic when these same factors are an issue.

Almost every 2 place Pitts Special is being flown over gross every day, simply a fact that most pilots are too darn Fat now days.....

Oh well

Jack

BTW. My instructor back at APG had warned me that Mr. Reed's love of cheeseburgers would require my being creative when doing the W&B.
 
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I don’t recall when the change came about, but I believe the 15% increase used to apply all airplanes. I know the current limitation to 135 and 121 goes back to 1997 (amendment 91-253) but not sure how much farther back it goes.


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If its EAB then wher is the "gross weight" recorded other than the W&B. I have nothing in writing on any of the paperwork filed on my plane that shows a "gross weight". For that matter, there is no official "gross weight" only a maximum take off weight.
 
akavidflyer said:
If its EAB then wher is the "gross weight" recorded other than the W&B. I have nothing in writing on any of the paperwork filed on my plane that shows a "gross weight". For that matter, there is no official "gross weight" only a maximum take off weight.
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It's recorded by you on your operations limitations when you are doing your flight testing hours.
 
akavidflyer said:
and can be pretty much anything you choose to record.
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That is correct, then that number is it unless you do further testing to be able to declare a different number. I chose 1999# on my Cub because the annual State registration fee goes up with a gross weight above 2000#.
 
akavidflyer said:
and can be pretty much anything you choose to record.
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So, if you recorded that as 1320 or less when the airplane was licensed, you can operate it as LSA. If you licensed it at 1400, it can never be operated as LSA.

Pretty simple. Not what a lot of folks want to hear, but.

MTV
 
I have the CD on my Avid as well as a few other. There is no record on file with the FAA for any weights of any kind.
 
skywagon8a said:
That is because the filled out operations limitations never leave the possession of the airplane's owner.
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that's is kind of my point. Records become lost or destroyed in house fires etc. Mine were lost in a house fire when the previous owner had it. Basically, the weight at which you choose to fly is pretty much up to you and would be very hard to prove otherwise.
 
akavidflyer said:
that's is kind of my point. Records become lost or destroyed in house fires etc. Mine were lost in a house fire when the previous owner had it. Basically, the weight at which you choose to fly is pretty much up to you and would be very hard to prove otherwise.
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For my EAB I was told that the WB is the record.
 
akavidflyer said:
that's is kind of my point. Records become lost or destroyed in house fires etc. Mine were lost in a house fire when the previous owner had it. Basically, the weight at which you choose to fly is pretty much up to you and would be very hard to prove otherwise.
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It is apparent that you are addressing airplanes which are certified as E-AB. When those papers were lost in that house fire, the airplane was no longer airworthy and not allowed to be flown as the papers are required to be on board during flight. They must be replaced AND you will be required to set up the new numbers.
 
On the subject of LSA. If a person buys an LSA, and they are unlicensed can they get a ferry permit to operate the aircraft above gross so they can have a CFI onboard plus full fuel to get the aircraft home? Maybe Joe Norris knows.
 
ndill said:
On the subject of LSA. If a person buys an LSA, and they are unlicensed can they get a ferry permit to operate the aircraft above gross so they can have a CFI onboard plus full fuel to get the aircraft home? Maybe Joe Norris knows.
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No provisions for ferry permits over published gross unless it is for ferry tanks and fuel, not people.


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I work with DAR's(2) every day it seems. It is correct that you have to certify at 1320 or less for operate LSA, if it is a home built/Kit plane it will always be E-LSA. If you want to increase the W&B down the road you can. A carbon Cub EX1 or EX2 will have a GW of 1865 but will not be LSA it will be EAB. You can up GW post certification but you can not decrease it.
 
To clarify, once it's operated over 1320 it can never go back and be LSA compliant.

Which to me is the about the dumbest rule I can think of. I ask, why not? There are otherwise LSA compliant airplanes like the 11AC converted to 85 horse by STC at 1325# that will be forever not LSA compliant. It makes absolutely no sense not to be able to simply knock 5# off the gross and go your way......

I joined this forum back when I started flying a friend's J5A-75 which is a 3-place airplane at 1450 gross. Anyone who has flown a 75 horse J5 at 1450# gross even a few degrees above a standard day would probably agree with me that it would be a much better airplane 2-place at 1320#.....

But making sense is an oxymoron to the FAA mentality!

Oh well,

Jack


Also. 40m is correct. you must have the current W&B in the airplane to operate and it will reflect the gross weight. The data plate also has the gross weight. Many if not most E-AB's licensed in the past 10 years will have the initial W&B as part of the FAA records. (I know my DAR sent all that stuff to the MIDO guy)

Most older E-AB have very sparse and/or incorrect records on file so making something LSA compliant is..........let's say not always impossible. OTOH I suspect the feds would assume an older E-AB was originally operated at the original design gross weight.
 
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justme said:
I work with DAR's(2) every day it seems. It is correct that you have to certify at 1320 or less for operate LSA, if it is a home built/Kit plane it will always be E-LSA. If you want to increase the W&B down the road you can. A carbon Cub EX1 or EX2 will have a GW of 1865 but will not be LSA it will be EAB. You can up GW post certification but you can not decrease it.
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Can you tell what is involved in increasing the gross wt.. I am interested in doing that. My aircraft already more than meets the physical requirements for 2000lb. gross but was certified at 1750 22 yrs. ago. Thanks for any info. Reid.
 
supercrow said:
Can you tell what is involved in increasing the gross wt.. I am interested in doing that. My aircraft already more than meets the physical requirements for 2000lb. gross but was certified at 1750 22 yrs. ago. Thanks for any info. Reid.
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I believe that it means a visit with your friendly DAR or FSDO inspector. Reentering Phase 1 testing for a limited period of time. Performing certain tests at the new higher gross weight, making the entries on the revised operating limitations form and then back to normal using the new gross.
 
supercrow said:
Can you tell what is involved in increasing the gross wt.. I am interested in doing that. My aircraft already more than meets the physical requirements for 2000lb. gross but was certified at 1750 22 yrs. ago. Thanks for any info. Reid.
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Skywagon is correct.
 
dgapilot said:
No provisions for ferry permits over published gross unless it is for ferry tanks and fuel, not people.


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Thanks for the reply I always wondered how that worked I knew that you could carry crew only on a ferry permit but I didn't know what the overweight part applied to.
 
n40ff said:
To clarify, once it's operated over 1320 it can never go back and be LSA compliant.

Which to me is the about the dumbest rule I can think of. I ask, why not?
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The reasoning at the time was that the FAA wanted to avoid a rash of applications for revised airworthiness certificates from people with airplanes that were just outside the limit. This reaction was triggered by the Cessna 120/140 association's application for an STC to lower the gross weight of their airplanes to comply with the LSA limitations. If the 120/140 association would have waited until after the rule was finalized and in the regulations, we may not have had that limitation. But they made the STC application before the rule was finalized, and the FAA decided that they didn't want to open the door for an avalanche of similar applications. Thus, the rule was written as we know it today.

n40ff said:
The data plate also has the gross weight.
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There is no requirement for the gross weight to be recorded on the data plate. Yes, there are some data plates that have a place for the gross weight, but it is not required by regulation and I always recommend that it NOT be put on the data plate. As has been explained elsewhere in this thread, it is legal and possible to change the gross weight of an aircraft, so it is not advisable to put the gross weight on the data plate. The only three items that are legally required on an experimental aircraft data plate are builder name, aircraft model, and aircraft serial number. No other data is required or recommended.
 
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