Super Cyclone
- Thread starter Supercubrancher
- Start date
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
Eaa's Amateur-Built Aircraft Certification kit will be useful in answering these questions. Also all necessary forms are included. You are the manufacturer and serial number picker.
https://www.eaa.org/shop/product-detail?i=941&pi=926&pr=2583379
https://www.eaa.org/shop/product-detail?i=941&pi=926&pr=2583379
Bearhawk Builder
FRIEND
In the woods
And you can choose the serial number
Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
Stewart great, thanks
Skywagon thanks, and I did get the kit, there is a lot of info in there!
Bearhawk thank you also
snellerh May not look dimpled in the pictures, but yes the skins, ribs, and stringers are dimpled. The hat channels in the tank bay aren’t dimpled because the tank bay skins are .050 and they are countersunk so the channels don’t have to be dimpled. I looked at the two pictures you are referring to and they are both on the back of the heavy skins. I took the pictures to show the shop heads.
Skywagon thanks, and I did get the kit, there is a lot of info in there!
Bearhawk thank you also
snellerh May not look dimpled in the pictures, but yes the skins, ribs, and stringers are dimpled. The hat channels in the tank bay aren’t dimpled because the tank bay skins are .050 and they are countersunk so the channels don’t have to be dimpled. I looked at the two pictures you are referring to and they are both on the back of the heavy skins. I took the pictures to show the shop heads.
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Farmboy
MEMBER
Middlebury, VT
No, Autopilots in Cessnas by and large are bridle cable driven.
Transmitted from my FlightPhone on fingers… [emoji849]
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hotrod180
FRIEND
Port Townsend, WA
A friend i know bought an experimental TruTrak autopilot (don't know which model) several years ago,
hoping to bootleg it into his certified Pacer (which he has yet to do).
But the A/P itself intrigues me...it's a single axis (roll only), which is sometimes referred to as a "wing leveller".
The servo mounts to the control yoke & has a sprocket which engages the chains that come down & connect to the aileron cables.
You couldn't ask for a simpler, cleaner, easier to get at installation--
it would be perfect for a 180/185 or similar.
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
Jim Younkin drew out how to install his autopilot in my Dad's Clipper on a napkin. Saw an early Pacer at Sun & Fun several years ago with a bootleg TruTrak in it.
180Marty
MEMBER
Paullina, Ia
Steve Pierce wrote
Here is a picture of me with Jim and his brother Bill when I spent the winter of 1996/7 learning and helping. My Dad was good friends with their other brother Bob. The Mullicoupe had bungee cords that were like rope wrapped around numerous times and tied off. He was fretting about how to get them tight and said "this is Arkansas so it has to be simple". I actually came up with an idea using a vise grip with some split tubing welded on the jaws. He was skeptical----I said let's try-----when it worked good, he ran to the phone and called Bud Dake. I was technically the pilot one time before he got his medical back.
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Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
Back riveted on the stringers to the outer skin and the intermediate skin that I made and hung them on the bottom of the wing. One of the guys that helps me out on the ranch and helped me rivet on the top skins ran the air gun for riveting on the rest of the wing skins. After bucking some hard to reach rivets in the intermediate skin and not being able to reach a couple rivets, out came the fly cutter and a new inspection hole appeared. Viola, bucking rivets mage easier!
Back riveted on hat channels to the fuel tank bay skin. I used blue tape because that is what I had, works ok but the tape sticks to some of the rivet heads after setting the rivets. Hung the skin onto the wing and bucked more rivets.
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Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
Welded up the fresh air vent for this wing, I tried to bend this tubing in a pipe bender but it is rigid stuff and just broke, so I cut the angles and tig welded the elbows, they attach to the leading edge with screws into nut plates.
Had to drill out the flap and airleron belcranks. The original owner drilled them out and put in brass bushings. However Cessna used a pipe in the belcranks so the bolt through the brackets and the pipe are tight and the belcranks turn on the pipe. Without the pipe the bolt will come loose and where out the brackets. So I drilled them out then bored them until the pipes just fit, much better!
Had to drill out the flap and airleron belcranks. The original owner drilled them out and put in brass bushings. However Cessna used a pipe in the belcranks so the bolt through the brackets and the pipe are tight and the belcranks turn on the pipe. Without the pipe the bolt will come loose and where out the brackets. So I drilled them out then bored them until the pipes just fit, much better!
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Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
The first pic is of the intermediate skin with 3 inspection holes in it instead of 2. Less acrobatics involved to buck rivets.
Then my high tech tools for bucking rivets. Thinking of buying a roller cart for holding rivets and bucking bars and light and mirror at arms length instead of the little stool that isn’t big enough. We used the flush rivet set on the right on this wing and we didn’t get as much distortion at the ribs where we hammered the rivets. I thing this wing looks better.
I am holding the autopilot servo and bracket in the inspection whole where it will go. Thought I had better make sure I could get them in the wing before I riveted the skin on.
The four holes are in the bottom of the wing, and the bolts go through the skin and the bracket into the servo bracket with nut plates on it. The wing bracket is riveted to the airleron spar and the rear main spar and is made of .050. I bent a 90 in the bracket for strength, just bent it on the wrong side, made riveting more difficult and installing the servo tougher. I don’t remember anybody saying this would be easy!
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brown bear
Registered User
emporia ks
I know their high priced but I love my tungsten bucking bars , I have only two , a 1.5 " x 2 x5/8" with a angle end and a 1x5/8x4"
I find myself using these most of the time and all my regular bars only rarely
https://www.yardstore.com/riveting/bucking-bar/tungsten-bucking-bars
Doug
I find myself using these most of the time and all my regular bars only rarely
https://www.yardstore.com/riveting/bucking-bar/tungsten-bucking-bars
Doug
Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
Finished up riveting the right wing, switched wings in the jig. Put the flap in the right wing and the flap has full travel in the flap, tracks. The only negative is the flap doesn’t line up with the rib where the airleron attaches. I think the only way to fix this is to drill all the skins off and realign the top of the flap tracks with the rib where the airleron attaches.
Next thing was to put in the flap gap seal. I aligned it with the flap and then drilled the seal and the skins. Deburred the holes and countersinked the seal and dimpled the lower skin. Put the seal in and riveted.
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The Mullicoupes are my favorite airplane short of Mr. Mulligan. Got the chance to fly Bud’s Mullicoupe, now owned by Mark Holliday a couple years back. Jim had a True Track in his Pacer. He’d pull it out at annual time, and back in after the inspection was done. He helped me a lot when I had my Howard. Loosing Bud when the 110 crashed was a real blow. Then Jim passing away a couple years ago was another great loss to the aviation community.
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
With the flap installed it was on to the airleron. The guys ahead of me had built the airleron flat so I ordered another skin, but the cyclone skin and the Cessna skin corrigations were not exactly the same. So I spliced the outer 13” with the new skin. I built two ribs because with the proper twist the holes didn’t line up any more. Cleaned all the parts and primed and started riveting. I didn’t go look at the first airleron and didn’t put a strength strip in the trailing edge, had quite a time squeezing the rivets in the trailing edge. After several days I realized my mistake, drilled out the rivets and put in the strip and riveted again. The final product looked pretty good. I balanced the first airleron and used 5 1/2 weights in both airlerons. Clecoed onto the wing the airleron balances perfectly. Drilling out rivets seams to be counterproductive , I realize this airplane will not be perfect because it is my first, but I want it as good as I can get!
The fellow I bought the airleron skin from said to use soft rivets in the weights. He was right. Hard rivets expand in the lead and will not shop head for squat no matter if squeezed or bucked. Hard rivets a difficult to drill out of the lead because they are long and the bit will drift into the lead.
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Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
With the airleron clecoed into place I slid the gap seals into the trailing edge of the wing. I aligned the seals as close to the airleron as possible, clamped, drilled, deburred, dimpled the top, countersunk the seals and finally riveted the gap seals to the wing. The above pictures show the gap seals installed.
An additional note on riveting the trailing edge of the airleron I used several squeeze clamps while riveting to keep the skins tight to the strength strip. Managed not to get any pictures.
An additional note on riveting the trailing edge of the airleron I used several squeeze clamps while riveting to keep the skins tight to the strength strip. Managed not to get any pictures.
Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
With with the right wing nearly complete I went to work on the left wing again. I drilled off the tank bay skin and used the digital protractor to align the flap tracks again. I could only get to a half degree of being the same, so I lined up the new skin and went through the process again, drill, debur, countersink, clean, and prime. I also made a new skin for the flap bay because I had drilled the trailing edge for the gap seal and wasn’t confident that the holes would line up again after straightening the rear spar. I definitely didn’t want to drill all rivets out of the rear spar again to fix the flap bay skin, so I made another and riveted a new skin in this position too.
I also made different inspection holes in the tank skin near the leading edge. This made riveting easier because we could now reach clear to the rear spar for bucking those couple rivets just at arms length.
To drill out the rivets I employed the technique of using an undersized bit then breaking the rivets with a punch. This seams to work the best for me as I didn’t mess up but one or two holes.
The backing plate where the airleron pushrod exits the spar did not meet the skin at the trailing edge. So I drill the plate off, made a new one out of the .050 tank skin and riveted back on. Those are the first pull rivets I used and they were bitter sweat. Since then I have drilled off the skin covering the pull rivets to fix a nasty hump and could reach them to buck, but I don’t want to drill out dollar rivets!
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Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
I have a question for the group. I am going to mount the battery in the boot cowl area similar to the Dakota Cub battery mount for super cubs. With the forward cg Cessna’s have anyway moving the battery forward won’t help. I am looking at the EFII fuel injection and he requires a 5 gallon header tank or the return goes to the main tanks. I was thinking of a header tank under the extended baggage area. 5 gallons would be about 40 pounds and 10 gallon be nearly 80. This would help with cg and add to fuel reserves, 10 gallon would be nearly an hour at an easy cruise. Guidance is appreciated!
Supercubrancher
PATRON
NE
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
185s are nose heavy when lightly loaded. The battery is placed aft of the cabin for good reason. The folks in Alaska move batteries forward because they find a need to keep them warm in the winter and always carry survival gear for ballast. Overall performance is better when the CG is kept towards the rear. That is a whole other discussion itself.
Cessna uses a header tank mounted low between the firewall and the control column for the fuel injection positive feed during low fuel steep climb situations and for the fuel return. The fuel injection return can easily be plumbed into the forward fuel line from the right tank in the upper right door post. This is the way it was done on the turbo charged STC in my 185 with Cessna's connection to the header tank capped off.
While you could install a 10 gallon tank under the extended baggage, depending upon using that fuel for extra cruise time seems as though you could be setting yourself up for a fuel starvation issue should you need a go around while low on fuel. At minimum if this is done, there ought to be an electric pump mounted next to that tank in order to guarantee a positive fuel pressure to the engine during low fuel situations. Just thinking about the negative possibilities gives me bad feelings. When low on fuel in the wing tanks, you would not need the nose very high for the 10 gallon tank not to feed the engine.
5 gallon header? Since when does EFII use a fuel return? No accumulator should be required unless you use Continental injection. I’d call Airflow Performance and have a chat.
The battery on the firewall doesn’t change CG enough to worry about. My big engine 180J has had an Odyssey on the firewall for almost 25 years. Do I carry a tool bag in back? Yes, but that’s about 10# and that’s all I carry regularly. Well, that and a day pack. No problem. Easily within the envelope. And, it has nothing to do with keeping the battery warm. Odysseys work really well in the cold and most of us use direct conductive preheat so the battery stays cold. It’s about less total weight and short battery cables. And to that, why aren’t you planning on an EarthX? Great batteries!
PS- Thank you so much for sharing your build. I have great respect for your commitment and hope that plane rocks your world when you get to fly it.
The battery on the firewall doesn’t change CG enough to worry about. My big engine 180J has had an Odyssey on the firewall for almost 25 years. Do I carry a tool bag in back? Yes, but that’s about 10# and that’s all I carry regularly. Well, that and a day pack. No problem. Easily within the envelope. And, it has nothing to do with keeping the battery warm. Odysseys work really well in the cold and most of us use direct conductive preheat so the battery stays cold. It’s about less total weight and short battery cables. And to that, why aren’t you planning on an EarthX? Great batteries!
PS- Thank you so much for sharing your build. I have great respect for your commitment and hope that plane rocks your world when you get to fly it.
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I am a carb guy so maybe my questions will help. Will this fuel injection system keep the prop turning on gravity alone? The reason I ask is if so the higher the fuel the better!! So you have to figure out what is the high point at high AOA/banking and yanking/slips. I would say none of that is in the extended baggage. Now if the pilot cooler is TOTALLY DEPENDENT on a fuel pump then I would just put it back in the wing from a weight savings/simplicity standpoint. If it will run on gravity than I would say a high tank on the firewall is best. Now to the CG standpoint. Consider the mission and how many times you are going to need or want to be flying with only front seats one pilot and a totally empty interior? No BEER/food/back seats/tools/oil/water/backpack/sleeping bag/shovel/axe/tie down ropes/anchors/ect. When you run out of stuff to stick in the back of the plane you still have a stabilizer to fix things. Now might be a bit more drag, if that bothers you add a case of beer and by the time it is gone you will be happy. Notice I said Beer not a case of oil, If you need to carry extra weight a case of beer or better yet the hard stuff will fix soooo many problems on the road. Do build the fuel system so an add on tank is easy. DENNY
No FI system I know can operate on gravity.
The header tank comment got me to read the EFII manual. 5 gallon capacity is to manage heat. I didn’t know EFII required a fuel return. That scratches my interest in adding it to my engine. I guess a guy needs to balance performance features with installation requirements. That said I’d suggest a conversation with Airflow Performance about mechanical FI
would be worthwhile.
https://flyefii.com/media/System32-Installation-Manual-rev-6-19.pdf
SDS systems also require a return line. Their system uses main tanks to feed a surge tank that supplies the EFI. Interesting reading.
http://www.sdsefi.com/em5manv28.pdf
The header tank comment got me to read the EFII manual. 5 gallon capacity is to manage heat. I didn’t know EFII required a fuel return. That scratches my interest in adding it to my engine. I guess a guy needs to balance performance features with installation requirements. That said I’d suggest a conversation with Airflow Performance about mechanical FI
would be worthwhile.
https://flyefii.com/media/System32-Installation-Manual-rev-6-19.pdf
SDS systems also require a return line. Their system uses main tanks to feed a surge tank that supplies the EFI. Interesting reading.
http://www.sdsefi.com/em5manv28.pdf
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skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
It is basically a purge line which minimizes the possibility of vapor build up in the system. Vapor in the system creates difficulty in starting due to the intermittent fuel/air flow at the nozzles. The slow turning engine can not maintain operation.
