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Trent Palmer’s Pilot certificate suspended for going around at an off-airport landing site

Exactly.

There is no minimum altitude requirement in the context of this discussion. There is a proximity minimum.
 
I never lock my hangar, no telling who could access my plane and take it for spin, so to speak, without me knowing about it. The dog ate my logbook.
 
It appears that helicopters are exempt from this rule. So I assume when flying in the fixed wing I will have to stay 500 above the river where boaters might be present.


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Exactly.

There is no minimum altitude requirement in the context of this discussion. There is a proximity minimum.

Ah, but that’s assuming the FAA considers a subdivision with ten acre lots to be a “sparsely populated area”. I’m not sure I’d make that assumption. This is the agency which concluded in one case that a small Boy Scout camp constituted a “congested area” after all.

MTV
 
Thanks for this thread. We were having a discussion based on it over beers this evening.

I shall omit the location, but there is a popular tour available where ATC authorizes an 800' msl altitude over what looks to me like a congested area.

One of my favorite copilots told me his buddy was busted because two people in a rowboat was congested. I wonder how the feds would view about 20 sailboats.

I am often (daily) cleared for an early crosswind. Sometimes that is over some pretty congested stuff - I hope this "necessary" idea is not someday an issue. It is generally safer than a long upwind over very congested shopping areas.
 
Ah, but that’s assuming the FAA considers a subdivision with ten acre lots to be a “sparsely populated area”. I’m not sure I’d make that assumption. This is the agency which concluded in one case that a small Boy Scout camp constituted a “congested area” after all.

MTV

That is an interesting question I have asked in the past, but have never come away with a repeatable answer.

Many years ago during primary training I was instructed the VFR sectional dictated what was dense vs sparsely populated, so I assumed the sectional was the basis of the FAA definition. Since then I seem to remember pilots being violated due to sparse/dense interpretations.

How can a pilot tell (before hand) how the FAA will define a given geographic area when planning a flight?
 
SOOOOOO, as someone who had the opportunity to give his license back to the FAA for 12 weeks all I can say is he is lucky!! Mine could have been for 1/2 a year but because of my good looks gave me less (my story and I am sticking to it). We really need to see the other half of the story!! About 5 weeks ago I was flying down the Skwentna at 1,000 ft when a cub below tree level (flight of two) called on 122.9 and said turning back someone in trouble. I looked down and below me was a cub and 180 on the river. They landed and said a they had a injured snow mobile rider that flagged them down. I stayed above after first call because that is what we do up here and I had the back open for a Medivac. I went down to check on the guy but arm was not broken so he just wanted a ride to Skwentna. Every day planes fly that river below the tree tops. THAT IS THE SKWENTNA RIVER IN ALASKA. People depend on aircraft and the pilots that fly them, if you don't live in that world don't expect people to understand that damm loud noisemaker you just flew over the house. If you want to check out a RC AIRCRAFT STRIP??? might want to use Google earth or the car first. JUST SAYING. Show the video and location. DENNY
 
Never forget, even with Administrative Law (executive department regulations), you still retain your 5th amendment right of not self incriminating. About 90% of FAA enforcement actions that result in penalties are due to self incriminating oneself. As stated above Deny, Deny, Deny! If the tower asks you to contact them when you land, park the plane and go home. Calling the tower is self incrimination. It is very hard to do, but never volunteer information.


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Good thing adsb won’t be used to tattle tale on you either. Oh wait…


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More discussion on "congested area."

http://www.aerolegalservices.com/Ar...vessel, vehicle, or structure (§ 91.119 (c)).

That case involved an aerial applicator spraying near an area of homes.

Trent's case, of course, did not involve a congested area. Nevertheless, I can see the FAA applying the same kind of reasoning for subjection (c): "Over other than congested areas", which has the 500 foot minimum altitude "except over open water or sparsely populated areas."

What exactly is "sparsely populated"? Case by case, no doubt.
 

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Where does a planned go-around on an IFR practice approach fit in to this if it takes you over a house or business?

The people who organize events like the drag races at the High Sierra fly in had better be listening and measuring distances to the judges and audience with a certified laser ruler.

Safety comes first. If you have to do a flyby to check for wildlife, you do it. But...

Dozens of backcountry flying videos could be reviewed by backcountry aviation opponents or FAA investigators and fly-by violations could be fabricated from what is freely available on the internet.

Places like Johnson Creek can be lined with other pilots less than 500 feet from the action, taking videos with their smart phones and sharing the videos on facebook and youtube.

To protect yourself and other pilots, be careful with your youtube and facebook accounts, people. Think before you post. Think about reviewing and deleting some of what you HAVE posted.
 
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Lots of good points made on this thread........most of them meaningless unless we know the exact definition of words. In the event of a reported violation, we get a judge to give us his answer after spending
time and $$$ with a couple attorneys.
Does previous case law apply as FAA cases are not conducted in real courts?
 
Trent was landing or trying to land, on an RC Model Airplane "strip". Wanna bet that reporting neighbor has been frustrated by the RC aircraft activity in past? And, maybe there's a little history between those neighbors? There's almost always more to these stories than appears.

MTV
You are right--that's likely what happened. My comment was a broader observation on human nature.

I am concerned with the rapidly escalating modern trend of people who self empower themselves against others they disagree with. They report them. They Dox them. Etc. I bitched about this trend a few years back when the FAA started getting sent pilot videos, some of which had been on SC.org. And authorities got involved.

I think of my client who just spent 22k clearing his name after being falsely reported to a government agency by a jealous brother. The agency, without any due process or ability to show any proof, simply declared him liable. Only in a real court was he cleared.

Due process is pretty important. Yet you now regularly see opinion pieces in major publications arguing that some people shouldn't be entitled to it at all.

I also think of my client who was marched off at the age of 7 after his late father was turned in for having "modern" art at the house. By their dear friends and neighbors. He has a plate in his head from a Nazi jack boot and a hearing aid in his destroyed ear. Or a college friend marched off to dig his own grave for harboring chickens during the Pol Pot regime. I can still hear him screaming in his sleep down the hall in our dorm.

But it's probably overall nothing to worry about because it always happens to someone else.....



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Lots of good points made on this thread........most of them meaningless unless we know the exact definition of words. In the event of a reported violation, we get a judge to give us his answer after spending
time and $$$ with a couple attorneys.
Does previous case law apply as FAA cases are not conducted in real courts?

I believe NTSB law judges decisions carry no precedent. If appealed to the US Circuit Court, I think that decision does.


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I had a close look on Google Earth and I don't see anywhere I would want to land. On the other hand there is enough room to cut a nice 500 ft runway and add a windsock. According to Trent's video that would seem to make landing there ok with FAA. I look forward to chapter two.

Yeah, too many neighbors, too close, too chopped up. He should have bought a larger chunk of land, sad to say. I've got 40 acres, wish I had 160. Edit: I thought that was Trent's place....but same deal, not so much I couldn't land the RC strip, but I'd back off/not consider it due to too many nearby homes. The number one rule of landing off airport, in my book anyway, is to assume anyone watching is out to "get you." NO people, NO problem.
 
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Yeah, too many neighbors, too close, too chopped up. He should have bought a larger chunk of land, sad to say. I've got 40 acres, wish I had 160. Edit: I thought that was Trent's place....but same deal, not so much I couldn't land the RC strip, but I'd back off/not consider it due to too many nearby homes. The number one rule of landing off airport, in my book anyway, is to assume anyone watching is out to "get you." NO people, NO problem.

Same here. I think I’d want to make friends with the homeowners before landing there. My own personal “straight face” rule would slow me from arguing that this is like back country operations.



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Places like Johnson Creek can be lined with other pilots less than 500 feet from the action, taking videos with their smart phones and sharing the videos on facebook and youtube.

This is something I’ve worried about even before the YouTube explosion.

Low passes at fly-ins always seemed like flirting with regulatory trouble.



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More discussion on "congested area."

http://www.aerolegalservices.com/Ar...vessel, vehicle, or structure (§ 91.119 (c)).

That case involved an aerial applicator spraying near an area of homes.

Trent's case, of course, did not involve a congested area. Nevertheless, I can see the FAA applying the same kind of reasoning for subjection (c): "Over other than congested areas", which has the 500 foot minimum altitude "except over open water or sparsely populated areas."

What exactly is "sparsely populated"? Case by case, no doubt.

This link was very good.

Or, very bad. Basically a pilot will never know what the FAA may deem an area, even if the pilot is an AG pilot and proximity flying is their job.
 
Low passes at fly-ins always seemed like flirting with regulatory trouble.
Why do pilots attending a fly-in seem to think they can show off in a careless and reckless manner in front of a crowd, when ordinarily they wouldn't think of operating in that manner? It almost seems like it is mandatory to exercise poor judgement when in front of a crowd.
 
While setting trusses on a house in a nearby rural area the other day, I affirmed that the guy I was craning for also owned the adjacent big field. A piece of cake to land it, and it was agreed at the end of the job that I'd drop by in a day or so with the bill. But I put it in the mail yesterday instead, due to this thread, partially, but mostly bad weather. Beautiful today, and for the first time I eyeballed it from the air, I could have saved the stamp expense and easily (and legally, best I could tell) landed there, unless powerlines and fence lines are considered "structures?" Seriously.... someone ask the FAA and get back to me. I would have been at least 700' from then, anyway. The approach would have been right from the camera POV, those "structures" on the left side are abandoned shacks not inhabited homes, but I guess they count too? What a can of worms. No RC field on the site.
 

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I wonder if Trent calling himself a "Sky Cowboy" might have something to do with FAA coming down hard on him.
"Cowboy attitude" encompasses at least two of the hazardous pilot attitudes that FAA takes a very dim view of.
 
This link was very good.

Or, very bad. Basically a pilot will never know what the FAA may deem an area, even if the pilot is an AG pilot and proximity flying is their job.

I wonder if there is an exception for Ag Pilots? When I was younger I remember always loving it when a speeding AT-502 would pass less than 100' away from me playing out in the backyard. also loved waking up to the sound of it going back and forth across the corn, but I know some people can be pretty bothered by that.
 
I wonder if there is an exception for Ag Pilots? When I was younger I remember always loving it when a speeding AT-502 would pass less than 100' away from me playing out in the backyard. also loved waking up to the sound of it going back and forth across the corn, but I know some people can be pretty bothered by that.
that was then this is now, today noboby tolerates anyone.
 
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