Longwinglover
Registered User
Charlotte, NC
Maybe it WAS off the correct thrust line and Wayne has found it (vertically) just as Mark found it (in the yaw axis). 
:lol:
John Scott
:lol: John Scott
Experimental Cubs & Extreme Stol Devices, Flaps,slats,sl
- Thread starter Wayne Mackey
- Start date
Bob Breeden
Registered User
Alaska
Wayne and Doug,
Great to hear that. I thought that it might require a new elevator input with the thrust that much lower than the wing (drag inducer). Sounds like you both have considered the whole equation of Cub design at your drawing boards.
Bob Breeden
www.AlaskaAirpark.com
Great to hear that. I thought that it might require a new elevator input with the thrust that much lower than the wing (drag inducer). Sounds like you both have considered the whole equation of Cub design at your drawing boards.
Bob Breeden
www.AlaskaAirpark.com
mvivion
SPONSOR
Bozeman,MT
Wayne and Kase,
So, do these airplanes require larger control inputs upon application or reduction of power? I would assume that would be the case.
Obviously, different thrust lines work, since all you have to do is look at a Lake to realize that a different thrust line can work, but those airplanes do have some different characteristics with power changes.
The amount you've moved the thrust line is small compared to a Lake, for example, so maybe no big deal.
Very interesting looking machine, and thanks for sharing information on it,
MTV
So, do these airplanes require larger control inputs upon application or reduction of power? I would assume that would be the case.
Obviously, different thrust lines work, since all you have to do is look at a Lake to realize that a different thrust line can work, but those airplanes do have some different characteristics with power changes.
The amount you've moved the thrust line is small compared to a Lake, for example, so maybe no big deal.
Very interesting looking machine, and thanks for sharing information on it,
MTV
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
Thrust
MTV,
There is no pitch up or down with power change on my plane that I
can tell. It's thrust line is where it belongs<pulling> and the little that the eng. was lowered can't be felt.
Beleave the center line of the crankshaft up to the bottom line of the
wing is about the same as a Champion,and all know they are good handling aircraft. My plane feels and flys just like a cub with the thrustline
untill you slow enough to start hanging on the slats. Wayne
MTV,
There is no pitch up or down with power change on my plane that I
can tell. It's thrust line is where it belongs<pulling> and the little that the eng. was lowered can't be felt.
Beleave the center line of the crankshaft up to the bottom line of the
wing is about the same as a Champion,and all know they are good handling aircraft. My plane feels and flys just like a cub with the thrustline
untill you slow enough to start hanging on the slats. Wayne
Steve Pierce
BENEFACTOR
Graham, TX
When we installed Mark's Thrustline Mod on Steve Edward's 135 hp SC he and I both noticed we never touched the trim from take-off to landing doing touch and goes.
Wayne, I take it you made a plug of sorts out of the engine and laid up the cowling over it? I had a friend do this on his Lycoming powered Bucker. He said it was very time consuming but the end result was very nice. Was the whole idea on the cowl for visibility? I figure there is no way to make a stock nosebowl work very well?
Wayne, I take it you made a plug of sorts out of the engine and laid up the cowling over it? I had a friend do this on his Lycoming powered Bucker. He said it was very time consuming but the end result was very nice. Was the whole idea on the cowl for visibility? I figure there is no way to make a stock nosebowl work very well?
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
Cowl
Steve,
The whole thing with the cowl was for visibility, and with the eng. lower
there was no way to go with cub type cowl. Wayne
Steve,
The whole thing with the cowl was for visibility, and with the eng. lower
there was no way to go with cub type cowl. Wayne
bob turner
Registered User
We just got another Cub with the thrustline mod. Owner says that now it needs less trim.
One of the neat things about this particular Cub is that it never needed much in the way of trim - zero flap takeoff to full flap landing, and never think about the trim handle.
Another thing about it is that I have a reasonably full set of data from before the mod. We will get another set - with the usual caveat that there are so many uncontrollable variables in aircraft performance that the best one can hope for is to notice a trend. One variable is that the owner reports 2650 RPM static with a cruise prop - it used to be 2400 at 50 mph in the climb. And even then it was a screamer!
One of the neat things about this particular Cub is that it never needed much in the way of trim - zero flap takeoff to full flap landing, and never think about the trim handle.
Another thing about it is that I have a reasonably full set of data from before the mod. We will get another set - with the usual caveat that there are so many uncontrollable variables in aircraft performance that the best one can hope for is to notice a trend. One variable is that the owner reports 2650 RPM static with a cruise prop - it used to be 2400 at 50 mph in the climb. And even then it was a screamer!
mexcattle1
Registered User
St Jo MO
Maule flaps
Has anyone studied the affects of the maule flaps position of 5deg up above normal settings, on a cub.
On a maule the 5deg position makes the AC cruise faster.
any info on this.
Has anyone studied the affects of the maule flaps position of 5deg up above normal settings, on a cub.
On a maule the 5deg position makes the AC cruise faster.
any info on this.
Dave Calkins
Registered User
Anchorage, Alaska
Aurele, the fuselage is covered and in the booth ready for spray coating build-up.
The wings have another day or two of work before I start gluing fabric.
You guys will know when she's up. I will do my best to get some photos up in the next few days.
DAVE
The wings have another day or two of work before I start gluing fabric.
You guys will know when she's up. I will do my best to get some photos up in the next few days.
DAVE
FixedWing
Registered User
Mars
Re: slats
Wayne,
I am very, very impressed. You have made a beautiful airplane and should be proud.
I'm curious, what engine do you think would have been ideal for this airplane? I would think the ideal would be to be able to take off in the same distance as you can land in. What power do you think it would take to achieve this? Do you think more power would detract in any way? Do you think it might make the plane more of a handful to fly?
You mentioned that you thought a more powerful Supercub would have a better rate of climb. What about angle of climb and performance over a 50 foot obstacle? I can imagine that your plane would climb at a slower speed and therefore have a better angle of climb. Any guess yet at the service ceiling?
Also, in one of your posts you mentioned that it can be more difficult to fly in heavy wind conditions. Can you give more details? Is this a matter of experience and learning new techniques?
I'm also curious about the attitude of the slats. Are they fully closed at cruise? When do they start to open? Are they normally fully open at stall? Do they shut on stall? In fact, do they ever stall? Or do they just mush? Any issues with control authority on the tail?
Thank you!
Stephen
Wayne Mackey said:
Wayne,
I am very, very impressed. You have made a beautiful airplane and should be proud.
I'm curious, what engine do you think would have been ideal for this airplane? I would think the ideal would be to be able to take off in the same distance as you can land in. What power do you think it would take to achieve this? Do you think more power would detract in any way? Do you think it might make the plane more of a handful to fly?
You mentioned that you thought a more powerful Supercub would have a better rate of climb. What about angle of climb and performance over a 50 foot obstacle? I can imagine that your plane would climb at a slower speed and therefore have a better angle of climb. Any guess yet at the service ceiling?
Also, in one of your posts you mentioned that it can be more difficult to fly in heavy wind conditions. Can you give more details? Is this a matter of experience and learning new techniques?
I'm also curious about the attitude of the slats. Are they fully closed at cruise? When do they start to open? Are they normally fully open at stall? Do they shut on stall? In fact, do they ever stall? Or do they just mush? Any issues with control authority on the tail?
Thank you!
Stephen
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
stol
Stephen,
On the engine I am not shore which would be best. Will know more in a week or so. Am installing a 0320 now that is over 200 hp.
As far as takeoff and climb HP has always been the way. Climb with slats
can be very steep to clear something, but feet per min. is not as good as
without slats. If you are plowing than there is just more drag.
As for the wind any aircraft with a stall speed that is close to the wind
speed is going to be a hand full. <185> I have
flown this plane in 28 gusting to 35. In the air not a problem but on the ground not good!
The slats stay fully open up to about 60 mph. At cruise the trailing edge
of the slats are up about 3/4 " They just weathervain to the flow of air.
You can force my plane to stall in 2000 rpm or more climb. At full power
with full flaps, full droop aileron and nose up 45 to 50 degrees it will start
to shudder and than brake over to about level attitude an begin to fly again. As of yet I have not been able to induce a stall in a turn. It will
just mush if to slow and start to side off to the lower wing. Today I flew
it very light and low on fuel to get the engine hot to dump the oil and
begin the engine swap. I was doing 720 degree turns at 2000rpm and 80
degree bank and all the time at 40 to 41mph. The nose was held just
above the horizon.
The only time the tail is short on control is when very light and no power
with flaps and ailerons fully deflected. It than feels nose heavy. Just touch
a little power and it all comes back. Wayne
Stephen,
On the engine I am not shore which would be best. Will know more in a week or so. Am installing a 0320 now that is over 200 hp.
As far as takeoff and climb HP has always been the way. Climb with slats
can be very steep to clear something, but feet per min. is not as good as
without slats. If you are plowing than there is just more drag.
As for the wind any aircraft with a stall speed that is close to the wind
speed is going to be a hand full. <185> I have
flown this plane in 28 gusting to 35. In the air not a problem but on the ground not good!
The slats stay fully open up to about 60 mph. At cruise the trailing edge
of the slats are up about 3/4 " They just weathervain to the flow of air.
You can force my plane to stall in 2000 rpm or more climb. At full power
with full flaps, full droop aileron and nose up 45 to 50 degrees it will start
to shudder and than brake over to about level attitude an begin to fly again. As of yet I have not been able to induce a stall in a turn. It will
just mush if to slow and start to side off to the lower wing. Today I flew
it very light and low on fuel to get the engine hot to dump the oil and
begin the engine swap. I was doing 720 degree turns at 2000rpm and 80
degree bank and all the time at 40 to 41mph. The nose was held just
above the horizon.
The only time the tail is short on control is when very light and no power
with flaps and ailerons fully deflected. It than feels nose heavy. Just touch
a little power and it all comes back. Wayne
FixedWing
Registered User
Mars
Wayne,
The idea of flying at 40-41 MPH in a level 80 degree bank just blows my mind. That is very impressive performance indeed! The handling characteristics you describe are also impressive. It really sounds like you have a machine which can be flown slow all day long in complete safety.
I had no idea that the slats would still be fully open so late or that they would still be slightly open even at cruise. I assume you have experimented with this by changing the pivot point? I also wonder if it would improve the cruise characteristics if the slats could be made to close fully – either through some mechanical means of holding them down or by changing the design of the pivot?
How do you think the slats compare to fixed position slots in performance and flying characteristics?
I will be very excited to hear how the 200 hp changes the performance characteristic of the plane. Sounds to me that it could only improve a fine flying airplane. As you say, ploughing along in slow flight means lots of drag and presumably the higher power will help compensate for that as well as giving you better takeoff and climb-out numbers.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences with us!
Stephen
The idea of flying at 40-41 MPH in a level 80 degree bank just blows my mind. That is very impressive performance indeed! The handling characteristics you describe are also impressive. It really sounds like you have a machine which can be flown slow all day long in complete safety.
I had no idea that the slats would still be fully open so late or that they would still be slightly open even at cruise. I assume you have experimented with this by changing the pivot point? I also wonder if it would improve the cruise characteristics if the slats could be made to close fully – either through some mechanical means of holding them down or by changing the design of the pivot?
How do you think the slats compare to fixed position slots in performance and flying characteristics?
I will be very excited to hear how the 200 hp changes the performance characteristic of the plane. Sounds to me that it could only improve a fine flying airplane. As you say, ploughing along in slow flight means lots of drag and presumably the higher power will help compensate for that as well as giving you better takeoff and climb-out numbers.
Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences with us!
Stephen
12Geezer2
Registered User
Eau Claire, WI
Been trying to think of the right words!!!About a month ago I caught up with Wayne just as he was pushing his plane out of the hanger. A beautiful Montana evening. VERY short take off and a very scenic ride up the Yellowstone river. A VERY short landing at ag-pilots place, another SHORT take off-steep climb out and UNBELIEVABLE TIGHT TURNS. Thanks for the demo Wayne. Looks like you have it pretty well figured out.VERY IMPRESSIVE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!Can I buy a video yet???? geezer Dan
geezer Dan
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
wind
Yes, the wind was a good 10 to 12 mph. Wayne
Yes, the wind was a good 10 to 12 mph. Wayne
Gary Reeves
SPONSOR
Lake Clark National Park, Alaska
Wayne,
as I understood it at the Alaska Airmens Trade Show, your StolQuest wing with the two variable slats, stalls in the middle but the root and tip keep on flying.
Since you have eliminated the problem of a single point slat design with a variable slat with a root and tip section--- how about adding a third variable slat - root - mid - and tip?
A bit more complex, but what you really want is something completely variable over the entire wing through out the flight range. Three slats may be a really interesting configuration.
Gary Reeves
as I understood it at the Alaska Airmens Trade Show, your StolQuest wing with the two variable slats, stalls in the middle but the root and tip keep on flying.
Since you have eliminated the problem of a single point slat design with a variable slat with a root and tip section--- how about adding a third variable slat - root - mid - and tip?
A bit more complex, but what you really want is something completely variable over the entire wing through out the flight range. Three slats may be a really interesting configuration.
Gary Reeves
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
stall
Gary,
Some misunderstanding. The wing when forced to stall will stall the
length of the wing on top of the slat and the aft of the wing full length
with the portion just behind the slat to let go last. The second stick pressure changes or any gain in speed the area behind the slat regains
laminar flow of air. That is what makes the stall so gentle. Wayne
Gary,
Some misunderstanding. The wing when forced to stall will stall the
length of the wing on top of the slat and the aft of the wing full length
with the portion just behind the slat to let go last. The second stick pressure changes or any gain in speed the area behind the slat regains
laminar flow of air. That is what makes the stall so gentle. Wayne
I am looking for more information on lowering the engine from stock for visibility. Does lowering the engine 2-4" affect tail control surfaces at all? I think I read a couple guys have done that and wouldn't mind hearing about it again if someone doesn't mind. Are there any negative side effects other then customizing some cowling? Any safety issues in flight?
Thank you,
Rhett
Thank you,
Rhett
Wayne Mackey
Registered User
Miles City Montana 406 232 1370
lower
Rhett,
As of yet on the pa 18 layout we haven't seen any change good or bad,
except better visibility. Wayne
Rhett,
As of yet on the pa 18 layout we haven't seen any change good or bad,
except better visibility. Wayne
skywagon8a
MEMBER
SE Mass MA6
BC-12 Don't forget that lowering the engine 2-4" will also lower the prop tips 2-4" closer to the ground.
I just finished my second exp pa-12, and while we are talking wing mods here is what i did,it is an extended wing with 8'flaps and 8' ailerons, fences,VG'S and a cuff on the out board 8'. the reason i only put the cuff on the last 8' was to keep the inboard section of the wing stalling first thus there should be little to no tendency to drop a wing in slow flight as the root would stall first.20% of my flying is on skis 80% on floats so the slats wouldn't be a big help to me.Thoughts?
i would post a pic but i still haven't figured out how yet so if someone pm's me i'll send them one to post.
i would post a pic but i still haven't figured out how yet so if someone pm's me i'll send them one to post.
cubdriver2
FRIEND
upstate NY
Cubus Maximus
Registered User
Slotted Bushmaster:
yep alum,it is nice to be able to put your foot through the gear leg especially with big boots on.Many mods on that plane it has an 0360 with 9.5/1 pistons,pmag,sutton exhaust catto 86/38.thrustline mnt ect.the airframe is from BCC done by Jay at Javeron.Cloude G's stamped ribs. i am hoping to do the first flight next week!
Tim
FRIEND
Petersburgh, NY
As long as this thread was brought back to life, Last week I put wickerbills on my 2+2, with no flaps I need all the help I can get. Over the years I'v talked to Dave Calkins and recently, Jim C. and decided to give them a try. I only have an hour and 15 or so landings and it was a little gusty at the time. I do feel a difference when slow and I think it cut my cruise speed some but not much. I put them from the fuselage to the aileron and from the aileron to the wing tip. I don't have any numbers yet but the seat of the pants feel is very noticeable. I used .040 3/4" X 1" with the 3/4 hanging down. Tomorrow the sun is supposed to shine and not much wind so I'll give it a go and try to get some numbers. And some pictures
