Oops, darn it...

I knew Ron [the pilot i question] a few years ago while he was building time hauling skydivers at our local drop zone in a 182. He had come up to the Finger Lakes area for the summer and left his family behind in Harrisburg while he got that done. Clearly, he had a goal in mind, a desire to pursue a career change, and willingness to work hard and make sacrifices to make that happen.

With a grand total of 5.5 hours of seaplane experience acquired while getting a rating in a J-3 and zero time in a DHC-2, I can't discuss the conditions involved in the accident with any authority. I will say that my career was started 44 years ago by a guy named Veryl Grimm that was willing to take a chance by turning a 19 year old kid loose to cropdust in a 450 Stearman. We all had to start somewhere when we knew very little about what we were doing. In my case, luck had much more to do with success than skill.

Waldo M said:

......that was willing to take a chance by turning a 19 year old kid loose to cropdust in a 450 Stearman. We all had to start somewhere when we knew very little about what we were doing. In my case, luck had much more to do with success than skill.

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When one is 19 years old his reflexes are a lot sharper than a like experienced 50 plus year old. When a 19 year old has fortunate luck a 50+ year old's luck is more likely to be unfortunate under the same circumstances. Not in all cases, but we old duffers aren't as sharp as we used to be in spite of thinking that we are. I too used to be a youngster who was given many chances. That was part of my education which when I think back upon know that youth and luck kept me going. When one is older those youthful experiences have become learned experiences. In this accident it appears that there was a missing gap between youth and senior citizen.

I agree, skywagon, except that I am not deluded into thinking my reaction time is what it was when I was 19. Hopefully, the experience we acquired in our careers helps us avoid situations where we need those lightning fast reactions.

I do not necessarily call it youthful luck, there are those of us that have skill bred into us. It is a "can do" ability that not all have or ever had. There are plenty of young ones that can not and never will be able to do what many of us elders have done and can still do. And yes I am aware and concerned when I think of test flights in a plane I designed and am building when I expect I will be 70 when it first flies. I am not who I was in my 20s and 30s. I still have abilities beyond many and there are those that trump me easily.
To this day I pick and chose who I ride with and there are very few young ones I will chance myself with.

Waldo, I'm not a wordsmith so my message may have been slightly misunderstood. One does not necessarily think nor recognize what the level of his reaction times may be as time marches on. The level of experiences gained over time diffuses the need for the recognition.

I have observed over many years that there have been many pilots who have been very highly qualified "airshow" pilots for many years. Most of them started in these endeavors at a young age and did very well. They continued to do well until one day they did not. The razor became dull and they went west before their time. If you were to think back, I'm certain that you could come up with many of those names. Bevo Howard for one, in his Bucker.

I have helped a couple of people recently find good Super Cubs. Got a call on Friday from one who ground looped it on his trip back with it. On Sunday I found out another one ended up on it's nose. These were both very nice, high end Super Cubs. I feel for both of them. The airplanes can be fixed but something to be aware of. Training and time in type go a long way to getting comfortable and familarity.

PA-22/20-160 said:

I hear a favorite plane of mine that went your way last spring went “over easy”

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Yep, this is happening all to often. We have a lot of fun and others see that and want to participate but don't realize the time and effort spent learning to fly in the environment we fly in. I have bent stuff doing stupid things and payed the price but also learned from it. Hope to spare others the expensive lessons.

Just WOW.

I am actually shocked and ashamed at this group. You all have administered what the problem was, who is to blame, and what should be done to solve it without even having all of the information.

Who here has seen the training records? Anyone? Anyone?

Are you all sure that there was not some mechanical? Anyone?

How many of you know the guy's history in boats? Flown with him? (One actually knew him so I bow to your knowledge).

Yes Mike, an ampig beaver is very nose heavy, but this was a strait float beaver. How many 135 training sessions and checkrides have you attended in the last 5 years? 10 years? How much IOE have you taken or administered? Would a 135 company training and check ride, then IOE be considered a 'good checkout'? How many hours did he get in training?

Yes, there is a pilot shortage. No, the people up here can not afford to pay $15,000/month to have a guy fly a taxi cab from easy places to easy places. Yes, there are a thousand things to look for when landing floats, but just as much on wheels. This was not a punch bowl confined space with no option mission. This is a MEAT BALL run used to get pilots to build time to prepare them for doing difficult places.

Plenty of guys coming from cub world get their face slapped, and for years the Beaver has been the training plane, with training syllabus to include the two or three 'gotcha' points on that aircraft.

In a not so nice way, let me offer this: Shut the heck up! We don't have enough information, and are furthering a headline from a news story that is only part of the picture. Hours hired with was a flashy headline, but nowhere have they discussed training hours.

I am out

aktango58 said:

Just WOW.
. This was not a punch bowl confined space with no option mission. This is a MEAT BALL run used to get pilots to build time

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Which is precisely the point we’ve been making, George. This should not have been a difficult task. The outcome begs the question: Was he properly prepared? And, by the way, the pilot is not to blame in my opinion. In this case, his employer MAY have set him up to fail, and two people lost their lives.

A tragedy any way you cut it.

MTV

mvivion said:

Which is precisely the point we’ve been making, George. This should not have been a difficult task. The outcome begs the question: Was he properly prepared? And, by the way, the pilot is not to blame in my opinion. In this case, his employer MAY have set him up to fail, and two people lost their lives.

A tragedy any way you cut it.

MTV

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I think his point is ,nobody knows what’s going on so all of this postulating the could’ve ,should’ve, would’ve ,does nothing but give ammunition to the uneducated at large. We are our own worst enemy when things like this happen. Every keyboard expert has an opinion and feels that everybody is entitled to it!

My guess is with the facts on experience on floats that has been published, assuming it is accurate, there will be legal action against the operator for negligence on this one. Of course my speculation, but if company training not followed with proper hours in type, floats, etc. there may be tremendous negligence/liability.
Sad whatever the outcome, but most facts outlined so far do not bode well for proper training for that pilot to be carrying passengers.
Not a keyboard expert, only trying to look at what appears to be the facts put out on this one.
And the one 185 upside down with amphibs and wheels sticking up is not hard to understand or explain. Sad but obvious.
John

That’s the cool thing about social media these days is it’s easy to speculate over a screen than face to face.

To a previous posters question “How do you get that float experience/time to get a job”.

1. Be born into a aviation family that has a floatplane.(Flying Mommy and Daddy’s 185 will pay off in spades!)
2. Buy a floatplane, do it yourself.
3. Pencil whip it.......lie.
4. Work for operator that will break you in. Albeit slowly.
or that will let you jump right in.

I know the 4 examples are “No Sh#$ Sherlock” examples. Was just thinking aloud, after all I’m at a keyboard in a far away place.

Ive watched this pilot shortage drive down the required minimums considerably over my career. At my current airline you had to have thousands of twin turboprop PIC over 12,500# and type rating to even be competitive(if not military) in 2001. Now you don’t even need PIC time...........wtf. I would gladly leave my employer to fly floats the rest of my career if any seaplane operator could give me north of $250 an hour, retirement and at least 17 days off a month. Point being these air taxis need to pay pilots wayyyyyy more than the current rates to get and retain experienced pilots. Then again that’s been that way for decades.

Im not going to rehash what’s already been said. But my speculation is..................exactly that, mine. Until more definitive info becomes available.....this tragedy could have been caused by quite a few things.

I was lucky enough when I was young to get my first seaplane job at a Southwest Alaska lodge with very low float and total time. Even with low float “time” I still like to think that my growing up hunting/fishing in the area, driving boats in the area, guiding and working for years for that lodge owner in the area counted as “experience”. As a teen I was lucky enough to have said lodge owner let me fly with him and other pilots. I got on the insurance but could only haul cargo till my time increased. The rest is history.
I reiterate I was lucky to have been exposed to aviation at an early age and bust my ass to get noticed by a few operators who took a chance on a young low time pilot. Over 20,000 hrs later at 48 yrs young I am still very much learning. Though apparently not as sharp as a 19 yr old.

For me this format is a conversation not a conviction. We pilots discuss these things and share experiences...some as an ongoing flight review and some to maybe learn from others without the sad consequences. The final NTSB report might offer resolution, but often that's not clear and the unresolved remains. Take away what's important to you and use it.

Gary

Thank you all for listening to my rant. The comments today are very good to read.

One other thought I had that I want to point out: the US military often hires folks with zero hours and trains them to fly F-16s, FA-18s and C-130s...

Not about hours hired, about training. Maybe that is where we could help with safety, training. Now if we could just get the flight tests to include true MCA and spins...

George,
Those folks have a lot more than zero hours by the time they climb in those F-16s etc.

How do you account for being hired with 5 hours of SES when this is the posted requirement? "500 hours single engine sea preferred" https://taquanair.com/careers/
Does this mean that 500 hours is preferred but 5 will do?

One other thought I had that I want to point out: the US military often hires folks with zero hours and trains them to fly F-16s, FA-18s and C-130s...

Wrong......way wrong.



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skywagon8a said:

George,
Those folks have a lot more than zero hours by the time they climb in those F-16s etc.

How do you account for being hired with 5 hours of SES when this is the posted requirement? "500 hours single engine sea preferred" https://taquanair.com/careers/
Does this mean that 500 hours is preferred but 5 will do?

Click to expand...

Pete,
After reading this post a few times, and trying to see Georges point of view. This whole thing doesnt add up[emoji15] Something is wrong here......nobody puts a 5hr float time pilot in the left seat of a Beaver and cuts them loose. I cant imagine you could get him insured. Even If they pencil whiped his logbook there is no way you could ask him to fly passenger's and feel confident that he
would be able pull it off without problems. This outfit is going to have an awful lot of explaining to do to get this behind them. This is again not so different than last years Beaver accident on McKinley, same format basically:
No time in type. No Alaska time. Way in over their experence levels..........
Darn shame in both cases, good hard working lads trying to live their dream.
Both had the deck stacked against them, before the R985 ever fired.[emoji32]


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Air Force hired me with zero time. With 75 hours total I was flying a supersonic T-38 solo.

Chicken Hawk said:

One other thought I had that I want to point out: the US military often hires folks with zero hours and trains them to fly F-16s, FA-18s and C-130s...

Wrong......way wrong.



Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app

Click to expand...

Eddie Foy said:

Air Force hired me with zero time. With 75 hours total I was flying a supersonic T-38 solo.

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Ah, yes, but who really was concerned about the outcome? 8) :roll:

I mean, there was at least ten behind you, right? And a T-38 isn’t going to make a very large hole, right?

MTV

skywagon8a said:

George,
Those folks have a lot more than zero hours by the time they climb in those F-16s etc.

How do you account for being hired with 5 hours of SES when this is the posted requirement? "500 hours single engine sea preferred" https://taquanair.com/careers/
Does this mean that 500 hours is preferred but 5 will do?

Click to expand...

I have friends that got hired with no float rating, did the rating on a weekend, and one day the boss needed pilots and said 'YOU'. They got trained, learned, checked out.

Notice preferred? You are seeing the sign of the times. Most of the guys my age with experience that got the ATP on a lark have moved to bigger better things. Anyone with any time and ability can go to work for really good wages right now flying turbine. Medivac companies are looking, airlines are looking. ATP, pulse and semi clean clothing seems to get you in some of the freight companies flying 747. Only people left are crazies like me, or those that don't want to work all year around.

I agree, military guys get time built up in training- so do 135 pilots. I would like to know how many training hours he logged.

The one difference between the McKinley crash and this- this was not a difficult destination.

Consider this- that pilot had enough time to be a captain on any of the jets flying around full of passengers. Think about that next time you board on a cattle car cheap jet; not all airlines hire high time cool guys like Bill, Capt. Cub and others on this site.

aktango58 said:

I have friends that got hired with no float rating, did the rating on a weekend, and one day the boss needed pilots and said 'YOU'. They got trained, learned, checked out.

Notice preferred? You are seeing the sign of the times. Most of the guys my age with experience that got the ATP on a lark have moved to bigger better things. Anyone with any time and ability can go to work for really good wages right now flying turbine. Medivac companies are looking, airlines are looking. ATP, pulse and semi clean clothing seems to get you in some of the freight companies flying 747. Only people left are crazies like me, or those that don't want to work all year around.

I agree, military guys get time built up in training- so do 135 pilots. I would like to know how many training hours he logged.

The one difference between the McKinley crash and this- this was not a difficult destination.

Consider this- that pilot had enough time to be a captain on any of the jets flying around full of passengers. Think about that next time you board on a cattle car cheap jet; not all airlines hire high time cool guys like Bill, Capt. Cub and others on this site.

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Now, you’re really reaching George. Not even close.

MTV

Looking like LAB Flying Service has set up shop in Ketchikan. [emoji15]

Almost all of this makes sense, but another aspect is that highly experienced and highly skilled folks mess up too. Sometimes big-time. Another piece is that the highly experienced could have a greater tendency to complacency than a newbie might. Not as a rule, no doubt, but it certainly does happen. Thinking about Ted Stevens' pilot - - -

When I climb into an airliner, I want to see some grey in the crew's hair.

Maybe DHC-2 Beavers on floats are prone to flipping. Is there any forum knowledge that suggests that's a unique concern? I was trained to keep the nose-toes-bows up during check rides with various float aircraft and later reinforced with experience.

Gary

BC12D-4-85 said:

Maybe DHC-2 Beavers on floats are prone to flipping. Is there any forum knowledge that suggests that's a unique concern? I was trained to keep the nose-toes-bows up during check rides with various float aircraft and later reinforced with experience.

Gary

Click to expand...

Gary,

No, Beavers aren't prone to flipping. On 4930 floats, which I assume that plane was on, they're very nice float planes. I've flown them on 4580s, 4930s and just a bit on the big Wip 6000, and none of them have any ugly water handling characteristics like that. They can get your attention taking off in a strong crosswind, as you come up on the step....but, landing, not that big a deal.

But, you're right, you have to land the plane such that the toes of the floats don't contact the water first.

MTV

I have not seen mention here of this one, Might have missed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt3TGD5mXUs#action=share

A bit more here, Forum will not allow me to post again,
kathrynsreport 2019/05/29

CharlieN said:

I have not seen mention here of this one, Might have missed it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yt3TGD5mXUs#action=share

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Another check list case. "This is a Water Landing---The gear is Up." What is that voice in my head set? Push gear warning annunciation to silence noise. Where are the mirrors?

I liked the mirrors on the Lake I flew, and my instructor impressing the need to call out the landing and look at the mirrors.