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Fabric pros and cons.

[h=1]Common Questions about Oratex600® and Oratex6000®[/h] [h=2]General Questions[/h]
Is the fabric proven?
Oratex is currently being used on over 300 flying airplanes, with many more under construction, and the oldest being over ten years and still looking very good. Oratex has been tested extensively in Alaska and has been found to hold up extremely well to the most rugged conditions imaginable.

Is Oratex more expensive than other covering systems?
If you factor in the cost of painting (which is not required with Oratex) the price is about the same as the legacy systems. If you include the cost of a compressor, spray gun and respirator (none of which are necessary with our system) or if you factor in the time you will save, then the cost of covering with Oratex will be significantly less. [Click Here for a more detailed cost comparison.]

Is the fabric certified?
Oratex is certified in Europe and Canada and FAA STCs are now available for many aircraft, including Pipers, some Aeroncas, Stinsons, as well as all Maules and Huskys. We also have field approval for Cessna 120/140s.
 
Oratex is indeed an approved process. The individual that was refunded his money probably installed the "backsislde coated" version on his certified plane. The "backside coated" otx has a layer of color on the inside of the fabric to make it far less translucent. For whatever reason, there has been a holdup in the approval process and someone jumped the gun hoping for approval by the time installation was complete.
 
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The left side is an unused sample of Oratex. The right is from the same piece except shrunk to a frame and leaned up against an out building outside for approximately 1.5 yrs.....I’d want a hangar if I used it.
 

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I think Oratex is a good tough fabric and for some might be the right answer, however. Things to think about. The glue turns brown after a while so if you have ANY that seeps out the edge of the tapes it looks like crap. Simple fix is to spray a topcoat over the job and it will look great. Unless things have changed the only paint you can use according to the STC comes from GEMANY, and the company will not allow the paint to be mixed in the US!! Other paints will work, but if you are certified and want to follow the STC that is a big factor. It is lighter but if you topcoat not so much. Easy to patch. Price is kind of a wash when you consider time and effort saved without painting. No right or wrong just stuff that can come back to bite you if you don't know about it.
DENNY
 
^^^Part of the otx maintenence procedure is to apply the supplied wax not less than once per year. It provides additional UV protection, luster and allows squished bugs to be wiped off.

Otx has a built in UV protection. The factory is confident enough to offer a 10 year guarantee against this type of thing, even parked outside.

KevinJ, do you know if that test piece was ever waxed?
 
Oh, I have been told that when spraying dope you want to be facing DOWNWIND!:lol:
During the early 60s, one of my coworkers was standing on a ladder spraying nitrate on the top of a wing, when he was overpowered by the dope and fell off the ladder. This was inside the shop.
 
Denny is correct. These and other important points are clearly lined out in the "Tips and Tricks" manual supplied with each purchase.

You would not believe the number of folks who disregard the instructions.
 
Can anyone explain what the base fabric of Oratex is, and if it’s affected by UV? I’m not asking about color, but rather the integrity of the actual fabric after spending 10-20 years in the sun. I’ve seen non-topcoated Oratex planes sitting out on a sunny day, and they look like a greenhouse inside- especially the white versions. Maybe this doesn’t affect the fabric at all, but my frame of reference is polyester and cotten, and I know what those would do in short order with that amount of light penetration...
 
^^^Part of the otx maintenence procedure is to apply the supplied wax not less than once per year. It provides additional UV protection, luster and allows squished bugs to be wiped off.

KevinJ, do you know if that test piece was ever waxed?
That I am unsure of but would lean toward no. The sample, from my understanding, was leaned up against an outbuilding catching the sun like the side of a fuselage would.
 
I would suspect no wax either. Regardless, if the OTX was installed on an aircraft, I would be sure to contact Lars at Better Aircraft Fabric and let him know sooner than later. If there is the possibility of a failure, it is always better to be ahead of the game with the manufacturer/retail outfit.
 
An 'upstanding' member here had a red plane fade like that also. Oratex sent two guys to his house with new fabric and recovered the plane for free. There was a batch of red that did fade, maybe the same lot- time sounds similar.

I did not intend this to be an Oratex forum, but easy to see that there is lots of information out there, good and bad, and experiences-good and bad, with all fabrics.

As far as glue, most working planes I am familiar with have enough dust and mud spread all over them a glue spot here and there would probably not be noticed!!

And Stewart- I should have been more clear, spray while TURNING downwind!:p
 
I have seen red totally disappear from a plane down to the silver in just one season's time. This was butyrate dope. The plane had been kept inside prior to this. The sun sucked the pigment right out. Red is the worst with other dark colors also having a similar tendency.
 
Back to Stewart system. I like the fact I can paint it with out health affects. I was wanting the option of using auto fuel so what can be done to mitigate that ? I like the sales pitch for oritec but I’m not convinced of its longevity
 
Back to Stewart system. I like the fact I can paint it with out health affects. I was wanting the option of using auto fuel so what can be done to mitigate that ? I like the sales pitch for oritec but I’m not convinced of its longevity

I see this stated quite often. Have any of you looked at the MSDS? Just because you thin it with water does NOT mean there are no health affects.
 
Not to pick a fight, but what steps are taken to prevent reaction with the full coat? And how about the glue? I’ve seen Alaska (non-ethanol) car gas loosen/soft/lift the Ekobond glue on multiple airplanes.

We seal the fuel tank areas with a brushed through topcoat...from the outside in. If you can do it, shooting the inside of tank bays with topcoat will prevent any problems too, but that's not always an option. It's all in the latest manual revision.
I've seen some car gas that will attack about anything, including the "other" systems' adhesives, and yet other car gas wont. I've seen samples immersed in it for months and no problem. Who knows what they put in there on some blends...I know I saw some additives that are put in unlead when I was hauling fuel, that would eat through a stainless container in a matter of weeks. I'm not sure I want to know what's in that!!
John
 
I recently did a repair using the Ceconite process in an unheated hanger. The instructions said there was no minimum temperature. The repair turned out fine.
 
We seal the fuel tank areas with a brushed through topcoat...from the outside in. If you can do it, shooting the inside of tank bays with topcoat will prevent any problems too, but that's not always an option. It's all in the latest manual revision.
And as soon as it runs under the rear spar to the non-top coated area you can’t access, or over the top of the tank to the glue line along the aft edge of the tank bay, you have issues. Agree that not all auto fuel is created equal- just sharing my experience with AK fuel...
 
This auto fuel issue, we talking about fuel with ethanol or Non ethanol? Or is this to do with other traits of the fuel?
 
And as soon as it runs under the rear spar to the non-top coated area you can’t access, or over the top of the tank to the glue line along the aft edge of the tank bay, you have issues. Agree that not all auto fuel is created equal- just sharing my experience with AK fuel...

Why couldn't you access that? Like I said, from the outside in. It's had reactions from other states too...your fuel up there isn't really special, but there's some things that are blended into auto fuel that are really something! The standard for blending is very open ended. It's also like Jason said, a lot has to do with how long it sets on it. Also like I said, I've seen the same from other systems' adhesives. Every system out there has a drawback, and I've seen more than a few in the last 37 years. I've personally never had a problem with auto fuel and what is now Stewart's, but I've seen a few, but I don't let any system sit there and soak in it, if I can help it. I've never seen a problem from a spill, but have seen reactions from a leak that wasn't detected for a few days. There's literally thousands of aircraft out there covered with it, and very very few problems, but as we all know, bad news travels faster than any good news, and gets repeated forever, so they keep popping up from time to time.
I wish it was impervious to everything! But, I've yet to find anything that is!

Here's an excerpt from the current manual:

Stewart SystemsSection 10Procedure ManualRev. #4 07/01/19______________________________________________________________________Safe for You, Safe for your Airplane, Safe for the World42safe. Where there currently may be an issue is when exposure to auto gas on theinside of the fabric system occurs, especially if exposed for an extended period of time. Auto fuel may soften EkoBond, and possibly loosen a tape or a glue seam. However, once the fuel leak is stopped and the fuel evaporates from the EkoBond, it generally returns to its normal state and is not affected any further from that point on. After exposure, clean thoroughly with EkoClean and inspect for any loose seams or tapesand repair as necessary. Exposure on the inside of the fabric in some cases may also cause delamintation of the EkoBond, EkoFill and therefore EkoPoly from the fabric. There are several techniques that can be used to mitigate this risk. 1)On the inside of fuel tank bays, fuselage low points and areas where fuel lines run, seal the inside of the fabric by painting it with EkoPoly Premium. This can be sprayed if convenient but can also be brushed or rolled. If it is not possible to access the inside of the tank bay, it is acceptable to seal the weave of the bare fabric in that area with EkoPoly Premium from the outside. Clear EkoPoly Premium is the best for that application. Mix it normally as you would for a spray application,but a slightly heavier viscosity may be desired. It will need lightly scuffed before applying EkoFill for good adhesion.2)Make sure that drain grommets are installed in low points that would allow leaked fuel to escape rather than puddle on the fabric. 3)When assembling the aircraft, test the fuel systems for leaks carefully. Run 100LL in the first tank full to check for leaks. 4)In areas near a fuel fill or vent, it is a common practice to mask the filler neck and apply EkoFill and EkoPoly premium and then remove the masking. Doing so will create a cross section that allows spilled fuel to wick into the EkoFill and may cause minor blistering around that edge. Sealing that edge with EkoPoly Premium will eliminate that possibility. Look for any other edges like that which could be exposed inadvertently to auto fuel and seal them.

John
 
This auto fuel issue, we talking about fuel with ethanol or Non ethanol? Or is this to do with other traits of the fuel?

It's on non-ethanol fuel as well. Like I said above, there's stuff in some auto fuel that'll eat anything. For the vast majority of auto fuel, it's a complete non-issue.
John
 
I see this stated quite often. Have any of you looked at the MSDS? Just because you thin it with water does NOT mean there are no health affects.

Yep, any polyurethane is catalyzed with an isocyanide. But, the difference is the amount needed to achieve the affect with a waterborne polyurethane is a fraction of what is needed for a solvent borne polyurethane. The aggressiveness that the isocyanide "searches" for a "moisture host" is greatly reduced also, because there's water in the mixture. You still don't want to drink the catalyst or get it on bare skin, but it's not anywhere nearly as aggressive as a solvent borne. It's attracted to moisture, and guess what....we're mostly moisture!
I was young and bullet proof (and stupid) for a long time, shooting polyurethanes without the proper gear, and landed in the hospital for it. I wouldn't wish that on my worst enemy!! It (for the most part) never leaves your body, so from that point on, if you survive, you're very sensitive to it!! I can taste it for a long time before I can smell it, and am very cautious about being around any paint booth or even a fresh paint job that is still gassing out. The most dangerous point of ANY catalyzed paint is when you pour the catalyst in, as then it's a "free radical" and searching. I can't tell you how many times I've mixed and then went to get suited up or whatever....
John
 
One thing this thread and similar have done is make me aware that I need to keep my air supply on for the full job. For decades I have done my share of mixing without the mask on. When I can I mix outdoors and stand with my back to the breeze. I doubt that I have taken to much in with all the two part I have sprayed in pools and many gallons of Imron and associated coatings over 40 years. I will be spraying again at the other end of the cold season.
 
Hardtailjohn, I’m sorry, I didn’t see the part in your post about from the outside in. I don’t recall that or any mention of auto fuel in the revision of the manual that I used several years ago- as I remember, they recommended top coating the inside of the tank bay, which I did. I didn’t intend this as negative toward Stewart’s- I know they’ve fought their share of negativity- I just thought it worth mentioning when the OP was asking about various systems.
 
The closest I cam to dying was mixing stitts primer on a high countertop by my face. I was maybe 19 or 20. Took a big breath of that and coughed. Then my lungs didn’t want to inhale anymore. Lucky my boss and another guy were there and got me outside. I always wear a mask mixing now [emoji3]


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org
 
Remember the portion absorbed through your eye tissue!

I was on a crew painting the interior of a housing complex in college. We were using oil trim paint and spraying latex for the majority of the walls.

Usually at the end of the day I looked like a speckled duck. We learned to shower in the morning, use conditioner and not rinse it out. It was so hot we tried to wear as little cover gear as possible.

We changed paint brands about 2/3 of the way through. I was doing lots of oil trim work in small places, and since we were behind and I was a broke college student, we were working all the hours we could. I remember that I wore a canister respirator, knowing it was insufficient- but positive pressure systems were not common back then. After a couple days with the new oil paint I had to quit early, (10-12 hours was all), because I started to get a head ache. The third day that week at noon I went down heaving my guts out. I tried to go back inside and paint the next day, made it an hour.

Young and dumb, I did realize I had accumulated lots of toxins in my body, and it was about to have a major issue. I packed my bags and went hunting for two weeks, and still avoid painting fumes and enclosed space.
 
Hardtailjohn, I’m sorry, I didn’t see the part in your post about from the outside in. I don’t recall that or any mention of auto fuel in the revision of the manual that I used several years ago- as I remember, they recommended top coating the inside of the tank bay, which I did. I didn’t intend this as negative toward Stewart’s- I know they’ve fought their share of negativity- I just thought it worth mentioning when the OP was asking about various systems.

Not a problem at all...I didn't see it as that, and all were very valid questions! The reason you didn't see it in that manual was that it wasn't there yet! Andy came up with the idea and I implemented it on some test panels and then wings, to try to figure out the easiest and most effective way to get it done. We've done a bunch of shop time, working on solutions and are still always striving to make it better!!
One thing I'm very thankful for is that the fabric industry has come so far in the last 20 years or so!! I think it really started to improve when Jon Goldenbaum rewrote the Poly Fiber manual. It went from about 15 small type pages to the book that explained it all, and in layman's terms that we could all understand!! That set a benchmark for all the other systems, and it still stands today. When I went to A&P school, our entire fabric course was a day. Basically they told us to take this glue and glue the fabric here and here, then put your iron on the "cotton" setting and iron it. :lol: Looking back, I shudder to think of how much we did "wrong" on that job!! The best part was when the instructor set the iron on the top surface of the Pawnee wing and it melted right through not only the top fabric, but out the bottom!! Yeah, quality instruction, right there! Now we have plenty of weekend courses for every system, great manuals, and the internet resources....a far cry from 37 years ago!!
John
 
I am building a new cub from a kit that came from nick smith. Great guys to work with. I’m also getting some parts from jay at Javron. We are hoping to cover it this winter and was wanting some input on what you all would use for fabric and why. We plan on putting it on floats so it will sit outside all summer and be in the hanger in the winter.

If I were in your shoes, I’m assuming little or no experience with fabric covering, I’d go with Polyfiber system. Simple, time tested and hard to screw up.
if you don’t have experience with urethane, finish it in polytone, durable, easy to spray, not as toxic as two parts, and easy to repair.
Lots of discussion around Stewart’s, if I covered for a living I’d switch and learn Stewart’s system. But for every happy Stewart’s customer there’s someone with less than ideal results, and some horror stories. Very finicky and unforgiving process.

My 2c
 
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