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hawgdrvr
10-06-2020, 09:51 AM
I've been researching landing gear for my May 2021 delivery of a CubCrafters FX-3. As this is a higher gross weight cub than the most prevalent SS model. I'm learning about what landing gear is the best fit for this aircraft at 2000 lbs gw. I asked in another thread about Beringer ALG vs Acme Aero and now I'm looking for opinions on TK1 shock monster vs. Acme Aero in their current generations as both have evolved over the years.

I welcome your opinions and experience to help me decide on the best shock for a FX3 taking into account both cold and hot climates, hard landings, etc.

Thank you.

Edit - haven't had enough coffee! It's OCT now! Ugh. Mods, if you can change the title from SEP 2020 to OCT 2020 I appreciate it.

stewartb
10-06-2020, 11:13 AM
Do some searching and you'll see this has been discussed more than once. Both brands had early growing pains but these days both brands are very reliable and highly respected. I chose TK-1 for shocks and more recently for gear. Acme makes both shocks and gear and I'd be happy with their products as well. Both suspensions are better than what's available to the standard category guys.

hawgdrvr
10-06-2020, 11:15 AM
Do some searching and you'll see this has been discussed more than once. Both brands had early growing pains but these days both brands are very reliable and highly respected. I chose TK-1 for shocks and more recently for gear. Acme makes both shocks and gear and I'd be happy with their products as well as well. Both suspensions are better than what's available to the standard category guys.

I did search and read the threads which were mostly dated. Just seeing where we are with recommendations of late and for heavier cubs.

FYI I used google and typed: site:supercub.org TK1 vs. Acme

stewartb
10-06-2020, 11:34 AM
Both will be far more capable of absorbing big hits than you'll be willing to subject your new plane to. My biggest hits have been from pilot error. When I scrunched my face in anticipation of hard landings and big noises I was treated to the equivalent of jumping into a big pile of pillows. It's really hard to imagine how good these shocks are until you experience them.

Your plane isn't heavy, by the way.

mike mcs repair
10-06-2020, 12:35 PM
2000 lb is pretty standard for Super Cubs.


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

hawgdrvr
10-06-2020, 12:36 PM
I realize I misspoke as I was comparing against LSA's not realizing the SS's were 1865? Learning continues...just trying to determine best shock option for my FX3. Thanks all.

Steve Pierce
10-06-2020, 01:12 PM
I maintain one of the first production FX3s that has 700 plus hours on it and Acme Gen 3 I believe struts. I hoist it up and check pressures at the condition inspection. The early valve cores would leak off but the new steel ones do not. I have had zero issues from a maintenance stand point on the 3-4 I have maintained. Just had a friend buy an EX2 with TK1s but know little about them. I was told the shocks on the TK1s are manufactured by someone else but do not know that for a fact. You could probably call Tony and find out. Met him at the Lone Star STOL contest but that was my only dealing with him. Have talked to Matt and Eric from Acme several times both at events, shows and on the phone. They have always been helpful.I do know that Cub Crafters finally came around and started installing Acme at the factory where it use to go to Tac Aero for the install. The Cub Crafters dealer here in Texas, Mike Sasser swears by the Acmes and installs them on all the airplanes he sells and he is pretty good at putting them through their paces.

Chogf22
10-06-2020, 01:40 PM
But when will they be certified?!?!

🤣


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stewartb
10-06-2020, 02:23 PM
Occasional poster Adam Grenda put a video on Facebook a couple of weeks ago that shows what TK-1s do on rough ground when the pilot's fighting unfavorable winds with a heavy load. Very impressive. Maybe he'll share? Adam?

KevinJ
10-06-2020, 03:23 PM
But when will they be certified?!?!




Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

November.....notice I didn’t say what yr:-P

Mauleguy
10-07-2020, 01:07 PM
I put acme gen 4 on the Javron Cub, amazing how smooth they are in the rough stuff. I also like the slim package they packed the performance into vs the TK1

hawgdrvr
10-07-2020, 01:11 PM
In what I'm finding it's one thing that it's a smooth ride (that's the compression side of the shock) it's another with how the shock holds up under tension (pull) such as a hard landing. I'm finding far too many FX-3's with it's gear spread eagle. I want a landing gear system that will hold up under those unfortunate situations such as a FX3 wind sheer event, someone stalling it slightly high, etc. I realize safety cables are a backup but I'm just seeing too many broken shocks in my research. The TK1's seem heavier duty and may be a safer option for extreme conditions and/or unfortunate and costly circumstance. Educate me if wrong...trying to make an informed decision. Beringer seems to be the strongest configuration of them all but I just don't care much for that look.

Mauleguy
10-07-2020, 01:13 PM
Just saw pictures of TK1 failure in Alaska when I was up last month. Anything can break with enough abuse, safety cables for sure...

stewartb
10-07-2020, 01:18 PM
In what I'm finding it's one thing that it's a smooth ride (that's the compression side of the shock) it's another with how the shock holds up under tension (pull) such as a hard landing. I'm finding far too many FX-3's with it's gear spread eagle. I want a landing gear system that will hold up under those unfortunate situations such as a FX3 wind sheer event, someone stalling it slightly high, etc. I realize safety cables are a backup but I'm just seeing too many broken shocks in my research. The TK1's seem heavier duty and may be a safer option for extreme conditions and/or unfortunate and costly circumstance. Educate me if wrong...trying to make an informed decision. Beringer seems to be the strongest configuration of them all but I just don't care much for that look.

Acme uses an internal spring and gas dampening. Their shock works in extension.

TK-1 uses dual gas shocks on a cleverly designed slider tube. Their shocks work in compression. It isn't intuitive when you look at them.

In the picture the shock on the right is in full extension, the one on the left is neutral.

hawgdrvr
10-07-2020, 01:19 PM
I want to know when forced to extend at high force they will hold up and not separate.

Steve Pierce
10-07-2020, 01:41 PM
Watch the last landing here where the prop hit the ground, no bounce out of the Acmes. My AOSS would have sent me flying again.

https://youtu.be/ighOR6uHy84

mike mcs repair
10-07-2020, 01:46 PM
Just saw pictures of TK1 failure in Alaska when I was up last month. Anything can break with enough abuse, safety cables for sure...


where did it fail? they have an extra 3/8" hole on the inner slide tube, that looked like a weak thing to me....

OLDCROWE
10-07-2020, 01:47 PM
Watch the last landing here where the prop hit the ground, no bounce out of the Acmes. My AOSS would have sent me flying again.

https://youtu.be/ighOR6uHy84
That's IMPRESSIVE!

Mauleguy
10-07-2020, 01:56 PM
slide tube broke at hole from what I remember seeing

KevinJ
10-07-2020, 02:02 PM
The video doesn’t even do it justice. I was on the approach side of the field during her landing. The force at which she hit was significant. There was also a slight rise in the terrain there. I was amazed that not only did the acmes not break but they absorbed the hit. Props to that young woman for also keeping her cool while things were happening fast!

I’m not a fan boy for Acme. I’m a fan boy for stuff that works. Pstol flaps, bushwheels, extended gear, vgs, brake boosters, long props and Acmes work.

Steve Pierce
10-07-2020, 02:06 PM
In what I'm finding it's one thing that it's a smooth ride (that's the compression side of the shock) it's another with how the shock holds up under tension (pull) such as a hard landing. I'm finding far too many FX-3's with it's gear spread eagle. I want a landing gear system that will hold up under those unfortunate situations such as a FX3 wind sheer event, someone stalling it slightly high, etc. I realize safety cables are a backup but I'm just seeing too many broken shocks in my research. The TK1's seem heavier duty and may be a safer option for extreme conditions and/or unfortunate and costly circumstance. Educate me if wrong...trying to make an informed decision. Beringer seems to be the strongest configuration of them all but I just don't care much for that look.
Curious to see these broken shocks. Have seen the early pictures from several years ago but if there are more recent I would like to see them. I am maintaining several and am curious to see what is breaking.

stewartb
10-07-2020, 02:31 PM
And what guys are doing to break them. I see some crazy stuff being done on Acmes and TKs and they continue to amaze.

Kid Durango
10-07-2020, 06:57 PM
Just to be clear - you can still bounce on Acmes! Not saying how I know.........
You still couldn’t pry them off my plane!

RaisedByWolves
10-07-2020, 07:15 PM
Watch the last landing here where the prop hit the ground, no bounce out of the Acmes. My AOSS would have sent me flying again.

https://youtu.be/ighOR6uHy84

Iím open to sponsors. Sure would be nice for someone else to pay the bills.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

KevinJ
10-07-2020, 08:19 PM
I’m open to sponsors. Sure would be nice for someone else to pay the bills.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Hell, Ford. If you and I could figure out how to fly like that girl we’d have no problem finding sponsors:-P

hawgdrvr
10-08-2020, 10:19 AM
Does anyone have a picture of that SS? I'd love to see the result of that incident to learn from it. Also want to know it the Acme's failed on that landing and if she had safety cables that prevented it from being worse.

Steve Pierce
10-08-2020, 10:25 AM
No the Acme's did not fail and no she did not have safety cables. None of the Carbon Cubs I maintain with Acme or the one with TK1 have safety cables. The FX3 I picked up off the runway failed the AOSS and it didn't have a safety cable either but safety cables do nothing for side loads.

Eddie Foy
10-08-2020, 10:38 AM
Only damage was to the prop! I was there also. She stuck it hard and it stayed stuck!


Does anyone have a picture of that SS? I'd love to see the result of that incident to learn from it. Also want to know it the Acme's failed on that landing and if she had safety cables that prevented it from being worse.

hawgdrvr
10-08-2020, 10:39 AM
Great to hear. Thanks for clarifying.

Eddie Foy
10-08-2020, 10:45 AM
51545



Does anyone have a picture of that SS? I'd love to see the result of that incident to learn from it. Also want to know it the Acme's failed on that landing and if she had safety cables that prevented it from being worse.

stewartb
10-08-2020, 10:58 AM
I'm still a safety cable fan. For them to save the plane from a hard hit like that the shock would need to take most of the load before it failed.

I've been told that TKs provide more travel than Acmes. Anyone have numbers on that? Around here a few guys I know increase pressure in their 35s and reduce pressure in their TKs to compensate. Even with some shock sag they still have plenty of travel. And for ops on rough ground some sag is a good thing.

tempdoug
10-08-2020, 11:12 AM
who is this mystery gal? is she married?:lol:

40m
10-08-2020, 11:25 AM
who is this mystery gal? is she married?:lol:

17 years old:oops:

Eddie Foy
10-08-2020, 01:43 PM
Jaden Newman 17


who is this mystery gal? is she married?:lol:

Dan Gervae
10-08-2020, 06:08 PM
Is that a Sport Cub? Or Carbon Cub? I wonder if I would have the strength to let my little girl participate in an event like this? Itís really cool...but Iím an overprotective dad I guess...lol. Back when I was 17 though (before cell phones and GPS) my dad let me take his J3 to go off to who knows where to camp our though...my mom used to freak out because I never really knew where i was going....I always promised to call IF I could hitch hiker to a pay phone....seldom happened. Lol

Oliver
10-08-2020, 09:01 PM
She’s interviewed here
https://youtu.be/L97wd8L1Xb0 (https://youtu.be/L97wd8L1Xb0)

KevinJ
10-08-2020, 10:29 PM
who is this mystery gal? is she married?:lol:

Easy Jerry Lee.....17 will get you 27:oops:

tempdoug
10-08-2020, 10:35 PM
ha, thinking about the son, hes 22. been trying to teach him to stay independant, but maybe not.

Steve Pierce
10-11-2020, 07:28 AM
In what I'm finding it's one thing that it's a smooth ride (that's the compression side of the shock) it's another with how the shock holds up under tension (pull) such as a hard landing. I'm finding far too many FX-3's with it's gear spread eagle. I want a landing gear system that will hold up under those unfortunate situations such as a FX3 wind sheer event, someone stalling it slightly high, etc. I realize safety cables are a backup but I'm just seeing too many broken shocks in my research. The TK1's seem heavier duty and may be a safer option for extreme conditions and/or unfortunate and costly circumstance. Educate me if wrong...trying to make an informed decision. Beringer seems to be the strongest configuration of them all but I just don't care much for that look.
Can you elaborate on these cases of broken shocks you have found in your research?

RaisedByWolves
10-11-2020, 07:57 AM
Can you elaborate on these cases of broken shocks you have found in your research?

Yeah like all the fx3ís that loose directional control fold the shocks up like a pretzel and blame the shock for loosing control. Like you say, you can break an anvil if you try hard enough


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hawgdrvr
10-11-2020, 09:00 AM
In my opinion, and only my opinion, the single biggest failure item in the Cub Crafters lineup is the Acme Aero shock causing the most financial damage and contributor to the most accidents. This is probably why the XCub changed the landing gear design moving away from these shocks. I do have a mechanical engineering background and what stands out to me as two weaknesses in the Acme Aero design is the attach point at the top using the shock casing material as a mounting point instead of a stronger metal such as the TK1's do and the extreme extension of the shock strut causing a very weak point where the strut meets the shock itself if it is subject to any lateral forces. Again, a better design in the TK1. Now it seems that Acme has the better shock design which is why people choose it, again, this is only my opinion. So you either choose for the shock effect or the strength of the entire assembly. Acme with a better shock and TK1 with a better and stronger design using steel at the mounts and shocks in between.

As a pilot we have to know the weaknesses of our airplanes whether it's an aerodynamic issue that needs attention or a structural issue that pilots have to be aware of. If using Acme's know the limits of the shock design and handle accordingly but this requires TRAINING and EDUCATION and I think this may be a contributing factor to some of these items as cub owners like me have little TW experience at entrance and the manuals don't have bold face sections pointing out concerns. I may have several thousands of hours of flying and 30+ years of it but it doesn't qualify me as an experienced TW or cub pilot so it is very important to be aware of and be trained on the weak points to avoid these situations.

A friend of mine compiled the accident data on E/FX's and SS's. SS's have obviously been around a lot longer but the trend is they are nosing over far more often, you'll find a lot of SS's on their back in accidents. I'm not privy to share his data, maybe he will at some point but if interested just go through the NTSB accidents for the CCX and CC11's and see what you determine.

People have confirmation bias swearing by what they use which can cause them to overlook the flaws when compared to others. I have zero experience at this point and am only doing research to make a decision of what goes on my plane as I own neither and want to make the smart choice of what goes on my very expensive cub (FX3). I really want to put TK1's on but there is one report that outlines crosswind handling in a comparison test on the CubCrafters forum by John Hodges I believe that concerns me a little so I will likely go with the Acme's knowing I have to be extremely careful landing them and also I will add safety cables for my build. I still have plenty of time to be more educated on which to choose, I see many of the Flying Cowboys folks including Mark Patey choosing TK1's which is telling. My research continues and my ears are wide open listening to all of you to take it all in and learn from you.

Airplanes have to have robust gear as they obviously take the highest stresses and there are conditions that simply happen that the gear has to handle. A weak component is something that needs careful attention and not an excuse. I believe Acme's are getting certified so that will be interesting to see if their history becomes a problem as they have quite a few accidents on their record which of course blame was placed on the pilot. I hate seeing pilots blame themselves because they stalled from X feet. The drop test by Acme is irrelevant in my opinion, way too low.

My $.02.

40m
10-11-2020, 09:10 AM
Whether it be a Cub or a Colt put an idiot on the stick or trigger and bad things can happen, no point blaming the tool.

hawgdrvr
10-11-2020, 09:14 AM
Here is a recent mishap (non cub) and good job Jonas for sharing. No shocks involved but another stall caused failure so pilot error and a good discussion on this topic. These stalls X feet up seem to happen too much and cause damage. Ouch.

https://youtu.be/e7Pzakaeb1w

aeroaddict
10-11-2020, 09:22 AM
A lot of YouTubers fly what they get for free. And believe it or not, there are other 'real engineers' on this forum. But it has also been my experience that years of working 'in the field' can trump engineering. As you know, that's why 'field failures with cause and failure modes' are so important.

I don't think you can go wrong with either setup. Just keep it straight and avoid the side loads.

I saw the Jonas video last night. Not that it matters but I have met the crew and have seen there planes. My opinion 'pilot error', landing downwind on a short strip, stalled a wing and went in. Fortunately everyone is ok. Not sure any landing gear configuration would have helped.

hawgdrvr
10-11-2020, 09:25 AM
I don't think you can go wrong with either setup. Just keep it straight and avoid the side loads.

Absolutely agree. I emailed my sales guy last night for now I'm staying with the Acme Gen3's. I'm going to do a week of TacAero training in the FX3 in January and they use the Acme Pro's so that will be interesting to experience and that is when I'll be able to make a better informed decision for my plane.

The biggest thing from this thread and others is learning and awareness. I will know to be eyes wide open to ensure that fuselage is lined up properly at touch-down and also go around if something is not right. A lot of learning ahead and thanks all for sharing the knowledge.

RaisedByWolves
10-11-2020, 09:51 AM
So how many of the gen 3 shocks are failing at the top attach point? The problem i see is lack of training. Landing or taking off at too high of a speed and loosing directional control. I bet if you stalled the airplane at 200 ft youíd break the tk shocks. Maybe just maybe with some training youíd have less losses and failures.
We all have bad landings once in awhile and thatís where the shocks help out, along with less wear and tear on the airframe on not so smooth surfaces. You have to take these YouTube ďinfluencesĒ with a grain of salt. All this popularity is going to there heads. Seems like itís totally ok to wreck an airplane when they run out of talent before airspeed as long as they make a video telling everyone how they screwed up


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courierguy
10-11-2020, 09:58 AM
Here is a recent mishap (non cub) and good job Jonas for sharing. No shocks involved but another stall caused failure so pilot error and a good discussion on this topic. These stalls X feet up seem to happen too much and cause damage. Ouch.

https://youtu.be/e7Pzakaeb1w

20 some miles away from me, and I find out about here, from a guy in Virginia! I have not seen the local TV news or the Sunday paper yet, but I'm sure it got plenty of coverage, great.

hawgdrvr
10-11-2020, 11:15 AM
I think the perfect marriage would be Acme shocks in a TK1 assembly. By the way, here is Mark Patey's video and review on the TK1's.

https://youtu.be/mi5k6WOwmX4

stewartb
10-11-2020, 11:32 AM
For a guy with no Cub time and no gas shocks on Cub time you sure think a lot!

Steve Pierce
10-11-2020, 11:41 AM
Having been around to see the evolution of these things I think you have been misguided. The spring gear from Cub Crafters did not evolve out of failed Acmes. The spring gear was engineered into the X Cub for speed like the push rod aileron controls and the multiple fairings that will wear any good Cub mechanic out in short order. Believe me I know I just finished an inspection on one. What has been learned from the spring gear just like any good Cessna pilot knows is the rebound effect. The evolution of the bungee cord, bungees on hydrosorbs, Alpha Omega Shock Systems and now TK1s and Acmes are the result of pilots exploring the edge. You drop a bungee geared Cub in on a short spot and you bounce hard and it gets little rodeo. You drop an Acme or a TK1 in and it absorbs and you stay stuck and in good control. I have picked up more wrecks than I care to think about and have been privy to even more. I have also read a lot of NTSB reports as well. I take them with a grain of salt for good reason. I have flown with some great pilots and we have all either screwed the pooch or dam near did. I think if you learn to fly the airplane you are not gonna break it. Cubs don't just stall. A Cub tells you what it is doing and it has a feel especially when you get it to the edge. You can read, study and research all you want but I think once you start flying the FX3 you will realize what a great flying airplane it is and what it and you can do. Most pilots do not push it to the outer edges of it's limits and that is good because anything can be broken and when you are exploring the edges sometimes you find them. I believe if you are a decent pilot, learn the airplane, it's limits and your own you will not have any issues with whatever shocks you use.

hawgdrvr
10-11-2020, 11:45 AM
Thanks Steve. This is the article I read on it. And I agree there is a drag part of this too as you alluded.

https://bit.ly/2GMkVGh

DENNY
10-11-2020, 12:05 PM
[QUOTE=hawgdrvr;784783]In my opinion, and only my opinion, the single biggest failure item in the Cub Crafters lineup is the Acme Aero shock causing the most financial damage and contribtor to the most accidents. This is probably why the XCub changed the landing gear design moving away from these shocks.



The spring gear will give you about 10 -15 mph(depending on who you talk to) more top end speed. That is most likely the reason for the change.. This extra speed is a big selling point to some. It is not a preferred gear setup for rough off runway work. You are way overthinking this gear thing. The ACME gear is not the issue and has most likely prevented several due to lack of bounce and better control. The weak point causing the most financial damage and contributor to the most accidents is the pilot. The gear was just along for the ride.
DENNY

hawgdrvr
10-11-2020, 12:08 PM
Thanks all. Appreciate the constructive inputs and continued learning. As mentioned, I'm going with the Acme's. Biggest takeaway is nothing replaces proper pilot skills and the decision to go around. I am learning to respect the plane and flying where it is needed most.

Steve Pierce
10-11-2020, 12:23 PM
I read that article when it came out. I was actually told about it right after it happened by one of the other pilots in an FX3 that was with him. Having flown the X Cub I believe it is a nice flying airplane but not for my type of flying. It is not the choice of Cub pilots wanting to explore off airport landing areas for the reasons I posted earlier. Having banged around on about 30 gravel bars in the last few days even my certified AOSS shock struts were adequate and hopefully soon I might decide to trade them in for aset of Acmes once they are certified for the PA18.
51573

51574

flyrite
10-11-2020, 12:58 PM
51575Confucius say....learn to putt with the putter ya got!
Go all over , See some Purty rough stuff ...Redneck + TKís for rebound only works really good! $800.00

KevinJ
10-11-2020, 01:00 PM
51573

51574
That spot looks like a goody!

skukum12
10-11-2020, 01:08 PM
Good ol days:
Damage your plane, cuss, kick and empty the bird. Get word to your one or two best buds and they show up with a trailer and a toolbox. Transport the plane back to any available barn or garage or tarp covered lean to. All drink beer till dawn's early light while formulating a plan. Fix everything with a torch and splices. Mum's the word.

Now:
Call every law/legal entity in the area. Film yourself with a big smile on your face breaking down what you think went wrong. Transport plane back to $500,000+ hanger. Film yourself again, smiling and welcoming yourself to the "club" like it's some sort of honor. Fix everything with insurance and a credit card. Upload to youtube and watch your popularity rise. Repeat.

Joe

wireweinie
10-11-2020, 01:35 PM
Oh come on Joe! It's just money! Think of the braggin' rights, lol.

Web

Oliver
10-11-2020, 03:41 PM
Thanks all. Appreciate the constructive inputs and continued learning. As mentioned, I'm going with the Acme's. Biggest takeaway is nothing replaces proper pilot skills and the decision to go around. I am learning to respect the plane and flying where it is needed most.

”the proper pilot decision to go around”

Just a thought on the decision to go around:

As students, it been pounded into our heads that the go around is what you default to when things don’t look right.
Its a tough habit to unlearn and has resulted in an alarming number of fatalities and bad wrecks in the off airport community, where often a go around is ill advised or impossible.
A low recon pass should tell you all you need to know about conditions on an established strip. If you you fail at an attempted landing and need to go around you’re probably playing beyond you skill level.
Sorry for thread drift
Fly safe.

RoddyM
10-11-2020, 07:19 PM
In my opinion, and only my opinion, the single biggest failure item in the Cub Crafters lineup is the Acme Aero shock causing the most financial damage and contributor to the most accidents. This is probably why the XCub changed the landing gear design moving away from these shocks. I do have a mechanical engineering background and what stands out to me as two weaknesses in the Acme Aero design is the attach point at the top using the shock casing material as a mounting point instead of a stronger metal such as the TK1's do and the extreme extension of the shock strut causing a very weak point where the strut meets the shock itself if it is subject to any lateral forces. Again, a better design in the TK1. Now it seems that Acme has the better shock design which is why people choose it, again, this is only my opinion. So you either choose for the shock effect or the strength of the entire assembly. Acme with a better shock and TK1 with a better and stronger design using steel at the mounts and shocks in between.

As a pilot we have to know the weaknesses of our airplanes whether it's an aerodynamic issue that needs attention or a structural issue that pilots have to be aware of. If using Acme's know the limits of the shock design and handle accordingly but this requires TRAINING and EDUCATION and I think this may be a contributing factor to some of these items as cub owners like me have little TW experience at entrance and the manuals don't have bold face sections pointing out concerns. I may have several thousands of hours of flying and 30+ years of it but it doesn't qualify me as an experienced TW or cub pilot so it is very important to be aware of and be trained on the weak points to avoid these situations.

A friend of mine compiled the accident data on E/FX's and SS's. SS's have obviously been around a lot longer but the trend is they are nosing over far more often, you'll find a lot of SS's on their back in accidents. I'm not privy to share his data, maybe he will at some point but if interested just go through the NTSB accidents for the CCX and CC11's and see what you determine.

People have confirmation bias swearing by what they use which can cause them to overlook the flaws when compared to others. I have zero experience at this point and am only doing research to make a decision of what goes on my plane as I own neither and want to make the smart choice of what goes on my very expensive cub (FX3). I really want to put TK1's on but there is one report that outlines crosswind handling in a comparison test on the CubCrafters forum by John Hodges I believe that concerns me a little so I will likely go with the Acme's knowing I have to be extremely careful landing them and also I will add safety cables for my build. I still have plenty of time to be more educated on which to choose, I see many of the Flying Cowboys folks including Mark Patey choosing TK1's which is telling. My research continues and my ears are wide open listening to all of you to take it all in and learn from you.

Airplanes have to have robust gear as they obviously take the highest stresses and there are conditions that simply happen that the gear has to handle. A weak component is something that needs careful attention and not an excuse. I believe Acme's are getting certified so that will be interesting to see if their history becomes a problem as they have quite a few accidents on their record which of course blame was placed on the pilot. I hate seeing pilots blame themselves because they stalled from X feet. The drop test by Acme is irrelevant in my opinion, way too low.

My $.02.

You are waaaay over thinking this thing. Youíre imagination is taking over. Seriously- you just need some good tw training in a Cub then pile up the hours. Something is missing no one has yet mentioned - cubs are very easy to fly including landings and takeoffs, especially in light wind conditions. Very docile planes.
Worrying about stalling too high should never be a worry. With proper training and currency, stalling too high and breaking the gear is all but inexcusable. And if you do this, and break the gear, itís time for a ground based hobby.

DJ
10-11-2020, 07:59 PM
Cubs have very tough gear already. The modern shocks let us get away with even more. Its likely that CC accidents and incidents would be more frequent and worse with bungees. I think my TK1 incident would have been worse. And Pierce is right a bounce sets up a directional control issue. Search "How to set up a groundloop" by Bill Rusk.

Carbon Cubs have something in common with the "doctor killer" Bonanza. Anything really unsafe about the aircraft? The statistics are showing more about the judgement and proficiency of those buying and flying than about the design.

You are gonna love that FX3 with Acmes.[emoji16] If you want to love it even more, go try a stock Cub with bungees.

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=93960)

hawgdrvr
10-11-2020, 08:09 PM
Cubs have very tough gear already. The modern shocks let us get away with even more. Its likely that CC accidents and incidents would be more frequent and worse with bungees. I think my TK1 incident would have been worse. And Pierce is right a bounce sets up a directional control issue. Search "How to set up a groundloop" by Bill Rusk.

Carbon Cubs have something in common with the "doctor killer" Bonanza. Anything really unsafe about the aircraft? The statistics are showing more about the judgement and proficiency of those buying and flying than about the design.

You are gonna love that FX3 with Acmes.[emoji16] If you want to love it even more, go try a stock Cub with bungees.

Thank you, much appreciated. When buying your first plane and you see a bunch of accidents you too will over analyze. Not ashamed, I'd rather learn and be safe and learn from others.

I have considered, and still am considering holding off on the Acme's so I can fly maybe the first 20 hours of the EAB fly off on bunjees then have TacAero install Acme's so I can appreciate them. My TW endorsement was in a sport cub on bunjees, I'm not sure why my instructor didn't triple the number of landings logged as I'm sure it was three per stop and go :) Having flown the sport cub on bunjees I'm not afraid of them, it was a good learning experience. I'm looking forward to acme's but it won't take away from the landing effort required to do it right.

RVBottomly
10-11-2020, 08:19 PM
51575Confucius say....learn to putt with the putter ya got!
Go all over , See some Purty rough stuff ...Redneck + TK’s for rebound only works really good! $800.00

How long of a stroke are those shocks? I've been kicking around the idea of rebound-only shocks. Those look close to what I've been imagining.

DJ
10-11-2020, 08:23 PM
Yep I did over analyze too. It can be hard to sift through the internet static and get good info.

You are gonna love those Acmes!!!

BTW here is what my version of stupid looks like....not bad design. This impact bent all the bolts in the landing gear system. The safety cables caught it. I doubt you will duplicate this level of dumb but saftey ropes from Airframes are pretty cheap/light insurance off airport.51578

Sent from my SM-G965U1 using SuperCub.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=93960)

thaefeli
10-12-2020, 06:45 AM
I have personally watched two CC (one SS and one fx3) wreck in the back country here. Also observed a CC specific flyin a few years ago where they wrecked three in two days. Not one related in any way to the landing gear (brakes were an issue on two of them). Every one was pilot induced. Tom

courierguy
10-12-2020, 07:33 AM
John Roberts of AvWeld in Idaho made my gear for my S-7S. He claims to be the first to come up with the concept of arranging the shock struts so that the shock works in compression, not tension. Mine uses bungees to take the impact, exactly like an old style Cub gear, but the Fox air adjustable shock controls the rebound. It works great, and I wouldn't change a thing, coming up on 2000 hours since I installed it.

mike mcs repair
10-12-2020, 11:20 AM
...He claims to be the first to come up with the concept of arranging the shock struts so that the shock works in compression, not tension. ... shock controls the rebound. ..

thats the NORMAL supercub Bungie setup that been around for?? 70 years?? just not adjustable...

that every one replaces with better solutions...

Narwhal
10-12-2020, 08:38 PM
Can anyone articulate what is better about the Acme offerings compared with the AOSS that CC offers as a factory option on the FX(on their website form)? Do they put Acmes on FX builds for an additional charge? I have broken a spring gear on a cessna :D on some rocks so I am concerned (luckily the plane was so old, the gear leg must've been rusted in place enough for me to limp home on a sheared bolt after I rejected the landing).

courierguy
10-12-2020, 11:17 PM
thats the NORMAL supercub Bungie setup that been around for?? 70 years?? just not adjustable...

that every one replaces with better solutions...

I may have explained it backasswards, wish I could find the picture I took of the insides. It is not like the stock cub setup, other then the bungees and how they work, there is an extra strut in there that the air shock mounts to. The one thing I know is it works great, it was a $1800.00 upgrade over the bungees only I had before. All nicely faired too.

stewartb
10-12-2020, 11:55 PM
Bungees don't allow any dropout. Why ruin a good gas shock by strangling it with rubber bands?

courierguy
10-13-2020, 08:24 AM
I just fly them, I don't know all the why's and wherefores! But now that I think about it.....I have the reliabilty (??) of the known "technology" of bungees, without their springback/relaunch tendencies. A conservative approach, not trusting the whole shock only thing I guess? 12 years old now, back before the tech of aircraft shocks was advanced as it is now. If I wiped it out tomorrow, I'd go straight Acme or TK's. But either way, I'd have to fair them, they both look pretty draggy.

Steve Pierce
10-13-2020, 08:37 AM
Can anyone articulate what is better about the Acme offerings compared with the AOSS that CC offers as a factory option on the FX(on their website form)? Do they put Acmes on FX builds for an additional charge? I have broken a spring gear on a cessna :D on some rocks so I am concerned (luckily the plane was so old, the gear leg must've been rusted in place enough for me to limp home on a sheared bolt after I rejected the landing).
It is my understanding that the engineers at Cub Crafters have tested and approved the Acmes on the FX series and it is now a factory installed option. There is an opinion piece written by two high time FX pilots who gave PIREPs on flying all the different options. I know burl at AOSS is sitting on several sets that Cub Crafters wanted but have now cancelled. AOSS is simple and is a polymer and really no maintenance. The Acmes need to be checked by hoisting the aircraft with weight off the shock and checked with a good gauge that will not let any pressure out and serviced with nitrogen using that gauge and fill valve.

http://forum.cubcrafters.com/showthread.php/3134-TacAero-suspension-test-Stock-bungees-AOSS-TK1-and-Acme-quot-Black-Ops-quot-Gen3

https://www.supercub.org/forum/showthread.php?53414-Suspension-Test

stewartb
10-13-2020, 09:22 AM
To the unknowing, Acmes and TK1s are best charged to desired gas pressure which no weight on the shocks. It isn't difficult to do it with the plane on the ground but it isn't as accurate. Better said the shocks are less sensitive to changing length with added pressure, but that's easy to deal with. Pressurize, roll the airplane around to normalize the shock
Length, repeat if necessary. If I have 180# of pressure in my shocks and one leaks down to 160# (it's never happened) it would be very easy to recognize. If it did happen I'd send the shocks to TK for servicing. The truth for these shocks is we set em and forget em. They're very low maintenance.

spinner2
10-13-2020, 10:29 AM
I've had bungees, AOSS and Acme's all on the same plane. The OP asked about application on an FX3, my experience with these is on an EX, so very comparable. In my opinion the most noticeable improvement was going from bungees to AOSS. A very big step up. AOSS stay glued to the ground in most situations. The Acme's are better yet but the AOSS are good enough that the difference is not as great.

I would not consider ordering a new FX with bungees. You'll soon switch to one of the better systems and then be trying to sell your bungees at a big discount.

No Experience with TK1's. But I did recently put a T3 tail spring system on and that's a big, big step forward too over the Pawnee spring I had. And I'm a wheel-landing guy 99% of the time.

KevinJ
10-13-2020, 11:32 AM
This thread has been a fun exercise with lots of info hidden within it. I’m not trying to be a smarta$$ but why doesn’t the OP just buy a set of each. Run each model for 25hrs then sell the least favorite one? Yes it’s real money but each system costs roughly 1% of the all in price of the FX3. Big picture, that’s not much. Then, maybe you take a $500 haircut on the 25 hr used shock system you don’t like as well AND you get to be the guy that can actually testify to running both on your cub giving the pros and cons of each

RaisedByWolves
10-13-2020, 11:52 AM
This thread has been a fun exercise with lots of info hidden within it. I’m not trying to be a smarta$$ but why doesn’t the OP just buy a set of each. Run each model for 25hrs then sell the least favorite one? Yes it’s real money but each system costs roughly 1% of the all in price of the FX3. Big picture, that’s not much. Then, maybe you take a $500 haircut on the 25 hr used shock system you don’t like as well AND you get to be the guy that can actually testify to running both on your cub giving the pros and cons of each

You mean run one on each side? Ha Ha. That would give you a side by side experience. The joys of EXP i guess

hawgdrvr
10-13-2020, 01:31 PM
I will have the opportunity to try each, actually 3. I have FX3 training in Jan so I'll experience the Acme Pro's on that plane. As of now I've changed my mind and do not feel comfortable going with Acme's for multiple reasons. I don't think the design is sturdy enough, the history of failures, and the email exchanges I've had with the company inquiring about the FX3 accidents. This morning I googled "acme aero shock failures" and found another incident resulting in $55K in damage to the plane. I don't have all of the details but you can read the thread:

https://bit.ly/2GTt5wA

I've been pleased in my communications with Tony regarding TK1's and have read and viewed many great reviews on the TK1's. I feel more comfortable with this design underneath my $330K airplane. I will order the plane with stock gear (bunjees) and have TK1's installed after delivery therefore allowing me to fly all 3 gear systems at some point in this process.

In post #72 above by Steve Pierce, the 2nd link about 3rd post from the end raises a valid point. Follow the money, those that are doing testing or pushing a product potentially have a financial gain from it. Know who the dealers are when getting recommendations.

Moral is based on what I've seen in the past few weeks and been exposed to from various people and companies, I would never feel at ease with Acme's on my plane. That is my personal feeling and what I choose is something I have to have confidence in. This could change but as of now, it's no go for Acme's for me.

stewartb
10-13-2020, 02:54 PM
That's as good an answer as any and more honest than most. It's your plane. Do what makes you happy. You're living a lot of guys' dream.

I'm a TK-1 fan. Good products. Great support. I can't imagine you'll be disappointed.

Narwhal
10-13-2020, 04:15 PM
I'll probably get laughed at for even asking about this - but an FX3 is a pretty fast cub. I am reading that the AOSS has the ability to wear bungee fairings for a gain of 1-2 mph (at the cost of a few pounds of weight, I guess). Is that even a valid consideration? If you're going to spend the money on a 186 HP motor and constant speed prop, might as well get every last mph. How about fairing for the Acme and TK-1? I'm guessing it wouldn't make sense due to the necessity of servicing the nitrogen charges. Probably silly to ask, but nothing else to think about while I'm in quarantine.

hawgdrvr
10-13-2020, 04:25 PM
I have read talk of fairings over the TK1's. It is added drag for sure. I'm just not sure how much I care about speed. I'd certainly be interested in making it aerodynamic but also protect it from the elements, exhaust, etc. but not if there is risk of something flying off and hitting the tail.

DENNY
10-13-2020, 04:43 PM
If you want speed I would do a fairing in a heartbeat. One reason to get any of this advanced gear is for rough off field work. Rocks/sticks/brush/whatever is going to be a much bigger threat to your tail than a well made fairing. The other reason is to help hide all you bad landing habits. In either case a well made fairing is not an issue with safety.
DENNYT

courierguy
10-13-2020, 05:16 PM
I fair every thing I can, not for speed but less drag. Screw speed, but better range/ less fuel burn, better climb and glide, all result from less drag. Good attributes in a back country plane I'm thinking, and I hate to throw them away in drag I can get rid of. Small amount? Sure, but there nontheless. I also drive the first or second lowest drag car on the planet!

skukum12
10-13-2020, 05:28 PM
FYI, the link to the super stol discussion of shock failure brought up an almost five year old thread. I wouldn't base a decision on such outdated information, especially with a continually evolving product.

RoddyM
10-13-2020, 05:30 PM
[QUOTE=hawgdrvr;784979]I will have the opportunity to try each, actually 3. I have FX3 training in Jan so I'll experience the Acme Pro's on that plane. As of now I've changed my mind and do not feel comfortable going with Acme's for multiple reasons. I don't think the design is sturdy enough, the history of failures, and the email exchanges I've had with the company inquiring about the FX3 accidents. This morning I googled "acme aero shock failures" and found another incident resulting in $55K in damage to the plane. I don't have all of the details but you can read the thread:

https://bit.ly/2GTt5wA

I've been pleased in my communications with Tony regarding TK1's and have read and viewed many great reviews on the TK1's. I feel more comfortable with this design underneath my $330K airplane. I will order the plane with stock gear (bunjees) and have TK1's installed after delivery therefore allowing me to fly all 3 gear systems at some point in this process.

In post #72 above by Steve Pierce, the 2nd link about 3rd post from the end raises a valid point. Follow the money, those that are doing testing or pushing a product potentially have a financial gain from it. Know who the dealers are when getting recommendations.

Moral is based on what I've seen in the past few weeks and been exposed to from various people and companies, I would never feel at ease with Acme's on my plane. That is my personal feeling and what I choose is something I have to have confidence in. This could change but as of now, it's no go for Acme's for me.[/


Hawgdrvr,

It is unfair to ask a manufacturer directly about a product failure they’ve had on a customers plane.
Talk about putting them on the spot- how to answer? Do you expect them to say, “yep our Shocks failed, buy them somewhere else”? Or, because likely there have been no witnesses, or credible ones, do you expect them to say, “yep the pilot didn’t know what he was doing and rammed the plane into a place it should never have been and something had to give”? That could be the case, but, any business person in the small aviation community, is going to be a bit careful on what they say. They may think it, but won’t say it - who wants to make their customer look bad? Even if they did screw up.
I’m not buying your story. Not at all. I know this company and their product well. Your research doesn’t add up. You have a problem with the company and you haven’t even owned a set. Based on google(??). Not cool man.
RoddyM

RaisedByWolves
10-13-2020, 05:43 PM
Better yet, if you already knew the answer then why ask the question?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

tempdoug
10-13-2020, 06:08 PM
I've had bungees, AOSS and Acme's all on the same plane. The OP asked about application on an FX3, my experience with these is on an EX, so very comparable. In my opinion the most noticeable improvement was going from bungees to AOSS. A very big step up. AOSS stay glued to the ground in most situations. The Acme's are better yet but the AOSS are good enough that the difference is not as great.

I would not consider ordering a new FX with bungees. You'll soon switch to one of the better systems and then be trying to sell your bungees at a big discount.

No Experience with TK1's. But I did recently put a T3 tail spring system on and that's a big, big step forward too over the Pawnee spring I had. And I'm a wheel-landing guy 99% of the time.


so what number bungees did you have and whats the empty weight of your plane, every one groups all the bungees into bungees and most dont know the difference.

Steve Pierce
10-13-2020, 06:09 PM
51612
51613
Yep, them Acme's are weak, ask Tony, he'll tell ya. 8)

Steve Pierce
10-13-2020, 06:19 PM
In post #72 above by Steve Pierce, the 2nd link about 3rd post from the end raises a valid point. Follow the money, those that are doing testing or pushing a product potentially have a financial gain from it. Know who the dealers are when getting recommendations.


He is actually a Cub Crafters dealer. there is a reason he recommends the Acme shocks, he believes in them. I am a dealer for Univair, Airframes/Bushwheel, Trig, Uavionix, Electronics International, JPI. I recommend the products I have good service out of both the product and customer service. I can make money on any of them but I also have my own reputation and head aches down the road to deal with if I recommend something that is not up to snuff. You have made up your mind what you want and why but I am not buying accidents from 2015 on a Highlander and the fact that one of the test pilot's happens to sell Acme stuff. If you haven't figured it out yet it is a small world here and most everybody knows one another. Usually no bullshit. I think there is some great information on here on all 4 options and all are fine and have proven themselves. Some are a nice leap in technology that is ever evolving like the extended stroke Gen4 I saw at ArkanSTOL.

As far as streamlining I see it as what ever you mission is. Certainly won't hurt anything. Piper streamlined the bungees and it helps. Acmes will be easier to streamline than TK1 for sure as are the AOSS. It's your airplane, set it up for you and your mission, if someone doesn't like it they can do theirs how they see fit.

hawgdrvr
10-13-2020, 06:37 PM
Let me circle back to the beginning here in why I've asked questions along this line and another thread prior to this, I think it was about Beringer. A friend knowing I have a FX3 on order decided to research FX3 accidents and then SS accidents. There was a common thread to the FX3 accidents, gear failures but yes, it could have been pilot induced. I agree, accidents from years ago are older generation products and hopefully and certainly products have improved since. But the trend in the research drew concern and caused me to make a decision on what I should do with my FX3 hence this thread and the other learning about the landing gear options.

A few questions up, let me put this in another scenario: I'm building an experimental aircraft and I have a few choices in engines. If I learn there are 5 engine failures but in an engine that seems to be highly recommended, you bet I'm going to do research, ask questions, see what the company has to say about the incidents. Are we beyond this? Is it corrected? What was or is the corrective action?

Am I going to make a decision based on what the small community says to use and go blindly with that? Or do my homework and make my best educated decision. It's a heck of a lot of money for a repair so this decision is vital. It may not make everyone happy but we all have to choose. You may like brand X and someone else brand Y. Nothing wrong with discussing and educating in a positive friendly manner.

I've gone through a lot of time and research with the help of many here to vet the options. I made my decision, I'm hoping for the best for myself and others with these choices to avoid financially devastating situations. I also like to see when a company steps up to help when there is a problem, I didn't find much of that in this research other then replacement of failed products.

I'm used to trusting my maintenance unit and crew chief. Now that is all ME. That's scary! Decisions are critical.

By the way, I have an outstanding salesman from CubCrafters and I trust in his recommendations. I believe Acme is the best option of what CubCrafters has to offer. I wish they also offered TK1's but they don't.

mike mcs repair
10-13-2020, 06:54 PM
2 thoughts.

When you ground loop that new plane at 10 hours or flip it it wonít really matter all this research you did.... happens allot with new guys. (Happens with experienced guys to, nothing like repairing a 10 hour old rebuild because of pilot error) Buy good insurance... can you actually get full value insurance??? I had heard max of 250k$ on experimental???

Fairing the Tks was discussed previously by dan default, didnít work well. Not sure if he ever got it figured out??


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org

Steve Pierce
10-13-2020, 07:04 PM
I asked you for the evidence on all these supposed gear failures, I got crickets. Then you link a 2015 thread on a Highlander accident. Sorry but I will look at evidence via Google but I will also do some real world research as you started doing here. Lots of people here running all of the shocks and I haven't heard anyone say one is defective. People tear $hit up, happens a lot. Some take responsibility, some blame. Seen it to much. I will go out and bang on any four of the systems that have been discussed here without even thinking about it. Actually I have no that I think about it. Here is a recent FX3 gear failure with AOSS. Blame the AOSS, nope, I saw the skid marks.

51614

51615

Here is a Super Cub gear failure blamed by the ferry pilot and ferry company owner on the AOSS.
51616

51617

Metallurgy report here doesn't jive with the story the ferry service owner tells. https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=483298&docketID=63759&mkey=100693

I guess I have been around this to long but you haven't convinced me through your research that there is a defective gear/shock system being produced and sold today out of the 4 options. Your airplane and your choice. I just don't buy it myself.

Steve Pierce
10-13-2020, 07:06 PM
Oh, go fly an SS and you will figure out why they flip over, really, really light on the tail.

stewartb
10-13-2020, 07:14 PM
I wonder why so few new guys ask questions here? Or old guys, for that matter.

Eddie Foy
10-13-2020, 07:15 PM
I came out of the Hog too. I did not fly for ten years after the airlines. Owning my own plane is a huge deal. You can't just walk around and fly. I had no tailwheel time. I started with a Pa-18 and now fly a 180. You say you have a mechanical background. I have rebuilt two airplanes. I spent 8 hours in the past two days rewiring my 180 for new fuel sensors. Also fixed a prop leak. I have enjoyed it immensely. I have met a bunchload of friends. Steve will never steer you wrong. Just go with the flow.
Let me circle back to the beginning here in why I've asked questions along this line and another thread prior to this, I think it was about Beringer. A friend knowing I have a FX3 on order decided to research FX3 accidents and then SS accidents. There was a common thread to the FX3 accidents, gear failures but yes, it could have been pilot induced. I agree, accidents from years ago are older generation products and hopefully and certainly products have improved since. But the trend in the research drew concern and caused me to make a decision on what I should do with my FX3 hence this thread and the other learning about the landing gear options.

A few questions up, let me put this in another scenario: I'm building an experimental aircraft and I have a few choices in engines. If I learn there are 5 engine failures but in an engine that seems to be highly recommended, you bet I'm going to do research, ask questions, see what the company has to say about the incidents. Are we beyond this? Is it corrected? What was or is the corrective action?

Am I going to make a decision based on what the small community says to use and go blindly with that? Or do my homework and make my best educated decision. It's a heck of a lot of money for a repair so this decision is vital. It may not make everyone happy but we all have to choose. You may like brand X and someone else brand Y. Nothing wrong with discussing and educating in a positive friendly manner.

I've gone through a lot of time and research with the help of many here to vet the options. I made my decision, I'm hoping for the best for myself and others with these choices to avoid financially devastating situations. I also like to see when a company steps up to help when there is a problem, I didn't find much of that in this research other then replacement of failed products.

I'm used to trusting my maintenance unit and crew chief. Now that is all ME. That's scary! Decisions are critical.

By the way, I have an outstanding salesman from CubCrafters and I trust in his recommendations. I believe Acme is the best option of what CubCrafters has to offer. I wish they also offered TK1's but they don't.

Steve Pierce
10-13-2020, 07:18 PM
I wonder why so few new guys ask questions here? Or old guys, for that matter.
Do you feel like we are picking on people Stewart?

I often wonder why people state things as fact and then when asked for the evidence to back it up other than just because they say we get crickets.

hawgdrvr
10-13-2020, 07:28 PM
Steve, I mentioned earlier in this thread it wasn't my info to share. Sure, I can go grab pictures but you've seen them. The story is all the same "the pilot stalled it X feet up". Wouldn't it be nice if the gear was strong enough for this plane to bounce off these huge balloon tires instead of pancaking? No, carrier landings are not approved. Yes, a lot of people with low time transition to these, things happen. My salesman offered me a FX3 that went back to Yakima as the ferry pilot ground looped it during delivery. Yes, I'm terrified of ground looping too. I had an outstanding instructor in NC that I went to for training. As a former instructor and evaluator myself I know what good training is and this guy did a great job. Highly recommended at South Oaks Aerodrome.

There is no need for attacking anyone. If you can't be kind especially in current times where everyone is so brutal then just don't post. I came here because I'm new to this type of flying and I have to make choices for my first aircraft purchase. I've been accused of over analyzing, so be it, I'll do my homework until I feel happy with my decision. I am VERY happy with my decision to go with TK1's and can't wait to buy them from Tony. I'd buy them today but I have 8 more months to endure in this waiting game.

Eddie, RVing really got me into the mod and fixing myself, as they say in the land of RV's (motorhomes) that if you can't fix it yourself you'll go broke trying. It's been a great experience and I hope to have the same joy with the plane. We'll see how things go. Community is a big part of this as was flying radio controlled planes growing up. Or going to the airport to hang out which was fun back in the 80's, these days airports are ghost towns. I didn't realize shocks were such a cult.

I'll say this again, thanks for those that offered support and information to help me better understand this situation of these accidents and parts involved. I have no second thoughts, my decision is made, I'm happy with it. I know to be extremely careful with landing any tailwheel airplane much less on pavement. I have great respect for how fast this can get out of control. I did get the opportunity to feel the start of a ground loop where my instructor took over, it was good to feel and see what that looks like. Great respect for this type of flying.

Thank you

RaisedByWolves
10-13-2020, 07:33 PM
I have a stupid question. How come there are far more CubCrafters accidents vs pipers or other exp cub type airplanes? Seems to me that the people who can afford them donít for what ever reason get the dual they need.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

mike mcs repair
10-13-2020, 07:35 PM
I asked you for the evidence on all these supposed gear failures, I got crickets. Then you link a 2015 thread on a Highlander accident. Sorry but I will look at evidence via Google but I will also do some real world research as you started doing here. Lots of people here running all of the shocks and I haven't heard anyone say one is defective. People tear $hit up, happens a lot. Some take responsibility, some blame. Seen it to much. I will go out and bang on any four of the systems that have been discussed here without even thinking about it. Actually I have no that I think about it. Here is a recent FX3 gear failure with AOSS. Blame the AOSS, nope, I saw the skid marks.

51614

51615

Here is a Super Cub gear failure blamed by the ferry pilot and ferry company owner on the AOSS.
51616

51617

Metallurgy report here doesn't jive with the story the ferry service owner tells. https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=483298&docketID=63759&mkey=100693

I guess I have been around this to long but you haven't convinced me through your research that there is a defective gear/shock system being produced and sold today out of the 4 options. Your airplane and your choice. I just don't buy it myself.

Wow amazing destruction caused by the PILOT!!(passenger might be better description?)


Sent from my iPhone using SuperCub.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=93960)

Steve Pierce
10-13-2020, 07:37 PM
I guess I start wondering when you tell me about weak gear and all these issues when I work on these things for a living and fly them for fun. I see accidents and like someone posted they are like Bonanza's and Cirrus. You can build a helluva a gear but then they will bust a fuselage or something else. You have gotten some great feedback from some great pilots with a lot of experience a lot of whom I have gotten to fly with. I am sorry you took my comments as a personal attack. It was me trying to relay to you that my experience differs drastically from your research. I say it a lot, you can break an anvil. I am still looking for the defects. If you ask me about issues with said aircraft I could give you several examples, one of which I cussed and repaired today but I am still not seeing these gear issues.

skukum12
10-13-2020, 07:39 PM
I am middle aged, and don't have a problem asking questions here. Better be thought a special ed pilot/owner than go out and prove it. Besides, I find there are generally at least a few guys here that don't know the same things I don't know.

Listen to what these names have to say, in no particular order: Steve Pierce, mcs Mike, MTV, Gordon Mische, Denny, Raised by Wolves. Several others I cannot recall right now.

spinner2
10-13-2020, 07:40 PM
so what number bungees did you have and whats the empty weight of your plane, every one groups all the bungees into bungees and most dont know the difference.

Good question but Iím not sure I remember. 1080s maybe?

My empty Weight at that time on 31s was about 990. Iím a little heavier now with a pod and a couple other changes. 1015 or so.

I also had bungees on my previous -18.

Landing numbers are probably about equal Between bungees and AOSS with a couple thousand in each type. Acmes went on this spring so a lot fewer.

Eddie Foy
10-13-2020, 07:41 PM
When you think you are the best pilot in the world like I am but you have no tailwheel time. Boy will you be humbled. Keep it going straight and you will be good. Stood my Cub on it's nose but have never groundlooped. If 180s don't count and you didn't break anything!



Steve, I mentioned earlier in this thread it wasn't my info to share. Sure, I can go grab pictures but you've seen them. The story is all the same "the pilot stalled it X feet up". Wouldn't it be nice if the gear was strong enough for this plane to bounce off these huge balloon tires instead of pancaking? No, carrier landings are not approved. Yes, a lot of people with low time transition to these, things happen. My salesman offered me a FX3 that went back to Yakima as the ferry pilot ground looped it during delivery. Yes, I'm terrified of ground looping too. I had an outstanding instructor in NC that I went to for training. As a former instructor and evaluator myself I know what good training is and this guy did a great job. Highly recommended at South Oaks Aerodrome.

There is no need for attacking anyone. If you can't be kind especially in current times where everyone is so brutal then just don't post. I came here because I'm new to this type of flying and I have to make choices for my first aircraft purchase. I've been accused of over analyzing, so be it, I'll do my homework until I feel happy with my decision. I am VERY happy with my decision to go with TK1's and can't wait to buy them from Tony. I'd buy them today but I have 8 more months to endure in this waiting game.

Eddie, RVing really got me into the mod and fixing myself, as they say in the land of RV's (motorhomes) that if you can't fix it yourself you'll go broke trying. It's been a great experience and I hope to have the same joy with the plane. We'll see how things go. Community is a big part of this as was flying radio controlled planes growing up. Or going to the airport to hang out which was fun back in the 80's, these days airports are ghost towns. I didn't realize shocks were such a cult.

I'll say this again, thanks for those that offered support and information to help me better understand this situation of these accidents and parts involved. I have no second thoughts, my decision is made, I'm happy with it. I know to be extremely careful with landing any tailwheel airplane much less on pavement. I have great respect for how fast this can get out of control. I did get the opportunity to feel the start of a ground loop where my instructor took over, it was good to feel and see what that looks like. Great respect for this type of flying.

Thank you

mike mcs repair
10-13-2020, 07:43 PM
I asked you for the evidence on all these supposed gear failures, I got crickets. Then you link a 2015 thread on a Highlander accident. Sorry but I will look at evidence via Google but I will also do some real world research as you started doing here. Lots of people here running all of the shocks and I haven't heard anyone say one is defective. People tear $hit up, happens a lot. Some take responsibility, some blame. Seen it to much. I will go out and bang on any four of the systems that have been discussed here without even thinking about it. Actually I have no that I think about it. Here is a recent FX3 gear failure with AOSS. Blame the AOSS, nope, I saw the skid marks.

51614

51615

Here is a Super Cub gear failure blamed by the ferry pilot and ferry company owner on the AOSS.
51616

51617

Metallurgy report here doesn't jive with the story the ferry service owner tells. https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/document.cfm?docID=483298&docketID=63759&mkey=100693

I guess I have been around this to long but you haven't convinced me through your research that there is a defective gear/shock system being produced and sold today out of the 4 options. Your airplane and your choice. I just don't buy it myself.

I canít think of seeing a cabane v destroyed like that from side load like that. Usually it rips the ears off the gear fittings... that was some wild side loading leading up to that one!!!! Definitely pilot error!!!


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Steve Pierce
10-13-2020, 07:50 PM
I can’t think of seeing a cabane v destroyed like that from side load like that. Usually it rips the ears off the gear fittings... that was some wild side loading leading up to that one!!!! Definitely pilot error!!!


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The owner of the ferry company interupted me 3 times after I listene to her story and tried to explain to her what I saw. I finally hung up on her. She blocked me on FB when I sent her the metalurgy report and then texted me not long ago wanting to call me with a rigging question when she got her own Cub flying. I am slowly becoming one of those grumpy old mechanics I learned so much from years ago.

wireweinie
10-13-2020, 07:55 PM
I'm out'a the shop for ONE afternoon. Look what I missed!

Web

mam90
10-13-2020, 08:01 PM
Hawgdrvr, remember it’s just an airplane. Don’t be intimidated by the tail wheel/ground loop stories. I learned in a tailwheel (as did everyone at one time). Respect it, get real instruction from a competent tailwheel instructor, know your limits, fly it from the time you untie it till it’s tied back down. I seriously doubt you’ll stall it from 10 feet or higher. And just for the record, everything I say is just my opinion. As I’ve said on other threads recently, everyone has something to offer (good or bad). Just scroll past what doesn’t work for you. I look forward to hearing how things go for you..... and oh ya, thread drift happens! It’s just like a conversation. Scrolling works for that too!

RaisedByWolves
10-13-2020, 08:08 PM
The owner of the ferry company interupted me 3 times after I listene to her story and tried to explain to her what I saw. I finally hung up on her. She blocked me on FB when I sent her the metalurgy report and then texted me not long ago wanting to call me with a rigging question when she got her own Cub flying. I am slowly becoming one of those grumpy old mechanics I learned so much from years ago.

My favorite Steve pierceism
ďAskholeĒ


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Eddie Foy
10-13-2020, 08:31 PM
What took you so long!

The owner of the ferry company interupted me 3 times after I listene to her story and tried to explain to her what I saw. I finally hung up on her. She blocked me on FB when I sent her the metalurgy report and then texted me not long ago wanting to call me with a rigging question when she got her own Cub flying. I am slowly becoming one of those grumpy old mechanics I learned so much from years ago.

Farmboy
10-13-2020, 08:37 PM
This is a tangent but regarding asking questions....

This forum is the nicest and most informed and experienced group Iíve ever found.

If you post a question or problem, the questions asked are directly related to diagnosing the problem, or providing the best answer.

Other forums, or FB, is full of people replying to hear themselves talk. Unrelated, or ďthis different issue happened to me so Iím sure itís your problem tooĒ. Just stupid responses.

Similar to some GA Forums, I see conflict arisen when a question is posted in the form of ďI think this is better, because the FB propaganda told me soĒ. Itís as if they are asking a question to justify their position or viewpoint. Pretty much like politics at that point.

Case in point. Person knew enough to come look at the SuperCub.Org forum for answers to their question. Yet Finding multiple threads related to the topic, they went to Facebook and posted the question, in multiple forums. As if most pilots following the taildraggers page isnít also following the big tires Stol page. And a million people gave answers, misinformation, unrelated spam, and just essentially confused anyone looking for good honest info. When I asked why they didnít simply ask the question here they said ďthe threads where oldĒ. Lol. I disagree. I donít believe they wanted answer. They wanted justification for their choice.


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KevinJ
10-13-2020, 08:46 PM
My favorite Steve pierceism
“Askhole”


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Followed by MASShole:-P

DJ
10-13-2020, 08:51 PM
I just want to say thank you to Pierce and others for being quick to share real world experience on this forum with those who want to know. Stick around here long enough and its easy to recognize who can most often back up an opinion with data and first hand experience.

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DENNY
10-13-2020, 09:21 PM
I think Benerger gear would be the best if you plan to do a high altitude stall. Go look at the 2019 Valdez video. As far as accidents I don't think the Cub Crafters planes have any huge market share.
DENNY

supercrow
10-14-2020, 04:50 AM
Wow! This has been a good one! I learned to fly in an Aeronca Chief nearly 50 yrs. ago. I didn't know the difference in handling until I flew the Cherokee the first time and drug the tail skid. I soloed the Chief in 8 hrs. and have been at it ever since. Champs, Chiefs, T-Crafts,J-3's, Smith Mini, 180, 140, bird dog, etc, etc.. If a person is truly terrified of ground looping, they should probably just stay in the trikes because the fear will hinder their learning in my opinion. However, in regards to the question, My exp. s.cub is worth something north of $100 thousand. I don't have money: It has taken me 25 yrs to get this much money into it. I don't carry insurance, and if I ding it I am out that's all. I use the TK-1s and like them but would have no qualms whatever in putting any of the mentioned suspensions on my buggy and flying the hell out of it. I can drive a Ford or a Chevy or a Dodge. I don't care as long as it doesn't dollar me to death. I believe these are all great suspensions. Take your pick and have fun with it. These discussions are great, but I think the brand specific mind set is out of line as far as safety in your cub goes. It all about the stick and rudder, and very good pilots who think they can just get into one of these ships and fly away are getting surprised regularly. My opinion agrees with others that these are pilot error incidents.

courierguy
10-14-2020, 07:58 AM
Best demonstration of how to handle a tail dragger I've ever heard: go to your grocery store, load up a cart with canned items or beer, turn it around backwards, fixed wheels in front, swivel wheels behind. Push it fast as possible down an empty aisle and note the lack of automatic straight ahead line tracking UNLESS you keep it going straight within a certain range by numerous small control movements. Compare this action to a normally loaded cart pushed in the normal fashion, that right there is why grocery carts aren't tail draggers. I still practice this in a tight situation, crowded aisles/people in the way, sometimes flipping the cart around backwards gives me more maneuverability, little do the other shoppers realize it is an aviation principle being demonstrated right in front of them, all they see is some yahoo who doesn't know which way the cart is supposed to go. I'm still working on why the Lowes lumber carts are so damned unstable.

tempdoug
10-14-2020, 07:58 AM
so when you pros watch all these landings, what air pressure are they running,is it right or is it off and havent leaked, bungees-what bungees are they running, if not worn out or the wrong ones, hydrosorbs do eventally loose there shock ability also, seems to me aoss would be the consistent ones. just askin? how long before the discs in those start to loose effectiveness? these air shocks if your going to drop it in more air pressure if not dropping it in not so much, how do you know what your situation will be? does 10 lbs pressure make a lot of difference in them? i would think longevity and simpleness should be a big factor also. at 3 grand plus hmmm. everyone seems to think 2 landings how about after 2000 how are they working? people with unlimited cash, are able to keep putting new on others not so much. talk down the road some also. seen bungees and hydrosorbs go for years, no i dont know the number of landings, but still working, with a fair amount of use.

RaisedByWolves
10-14-2020, 08:14 AM
The nice thing about acmes is if the air and oil all leak out, there is still a spring inside that will get you home. They donít leak enough to be un airworthy


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aeroaddict
10-14-2020, 09:51 AM
Wow, 3 pages and counting.

As a newbie to TW's and Cub's I find this site to be a group of very knowledgeable and no BS people (my kind of people). I have learned immensely from this group and they have helped with problems I have had.

And I fly Acmes up from and a T3 in the back (just a comment to keep the thread drift to a minimum).

SJ
10-14-2020, 11:09 AM
...and no BS people (my kind of people). ...

Hang around a while longer, you will find the BS part :-), but largely you are right. Folks also did a pretty good job of keeping things civil in this thread, which I appreciate.

sj (still running bungees.... )

cubdriver2
10-14-2020, 11:09 AM
What ever system you put up front it won't be complete till you add a T3

Glenn

hawgdrvr
10-14-2020, 11:15 AM
What ever system you put up front it won't be complete till you add a T3

Glenn

I am ordering a T3 when I order the TK1's.

And I agree, with my little TW experience so my comments are meaningless, I don't see what's wrong with bungees if the airplane is landed properly (speeds, etc.). I hope to fly my first 20 hours of the EAB fly off on the bungees before installing TK1's and T3 tailwheel so I can appreciate them.

tcraft128
10-14-2020, 11:37 AM
Back to Post 87. I was there, about 150 feet from where that plane had a "maximum extension" and I was part of the group that looked at that plane after. NOT A trace of damage to the undercarriage. (and it did not bounce 1 inch)

I have personally tested both the TK1s and the ACMEs on my cub, and I mean TESTED! and for the record, as of today I have ACMEs on the plane. The TK1s are amazing and are lightyears above anything I could imagine coming from coil springs, and I never had a single issue with durability or failure. The ACMEs are just as capable and in my application about 3lbs a side lighter, that is how I made my choice. YMMV, everyone has an opinion, just ask Dooley!

Farmboy
10-14-2020, 05:02 PM
🤦
Dooley isnít even on here and he gets mentioned. Nooooo, donít ask Dooley!! [emoji849][emoji38]


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sjohnson
10-14-2020, 05:10 PM
I appreciate this thread, and if I ever need to fix my gear, I will likely replace it with the AOSS (certified) system.

Is there a general life limit on hydrosorbs? AFAICT, they were last replaced by the Italians in the 70s (it's an L21B).

Steve Pierce
10-14-2020, 07:44 PM
I check the hydrosorbs when I install new bungees to see if they have any resistance. The idea was the shock was suppose to reduce the rebound.

thaefeli
10-15-2020, 06:36 AM
Local guy bought an early model backcountry cub with TK1's a couple of years ago. I did his Tailwheel endorsement in it. When I signed him off, I told him "don't ever fly a bungee Cub with out flying with me first". The issue was we never had a bounce that he had to decide how to recover from. We made some horrendous arrivals and landings and that airplane just stuck to the ground. Cool!

hawgdrvr
10-15-2020, 06:43 AM
Thread on Facebook about landing gear systems. I noticed Sir Dooley has TK1's on his cub. His dog/copilot must approve. As I'll be flying my labrador copilot, I have to live up to the highest scrutiny!

txpacer
10-15-2020, 07:34 AM
51574

Wow, I'm famous.

I've got Acme shocks, I like them. I don't really think about them so much anymore, until I fly a plane with bungees and think I forgot how to land. Once in a while, I get suckered into following someone on 35s. Then they come in handy.

courierguy
10-15-2020, 09:35 AM
Local guy bought an early model backcountry cub with TK1's a couple of years ago. I did his Tailwheel endorsement in it. When I signed him off, I told him "don't ever fly a bungee Cub with out flying with me first". The issue was we never had a bounce that he had to decide how to recover from. We made some horrendous arrivals and landings and that airplane just stuck to the ground. Cool!

Like people who have only driven AWD vehicles in snow, can't drive a 2WD in snow, don't know all the tricks. Interesting, PIO's on a blown touchdown may be a thing of the past?

SJ
10-15-2020, 10:12 AM
Like people who have only driven AWD vehicles in snow, can't drive a 2WD in snow, don't know all the tricks. Interesting, PIO's on a blown touchdown may be a thing of the past?

I'm working on a version you can repack after every landing. Should make it easier for folks.

51648

behindpropellers
10-15-2020, 10:24 AM
I'm working on a version you can repack after every landing. Should make it easier for folks.

51648

I'm glad Pierce is doing the testing.

Steve Pierce
10-15-2020, 06:48 PM
So a friend I fly with regularly called me today. He lives in Texas and has a place in Idaho where his EX2 has been for a bout a month. Got there and one of his TK1s had leaked and airplane was leaning pretty good. Luckily through our Super Cub network I texted someone who sent me contact to someone on the field with a nitrogen bottle and regulator go get him going. Something else to think about I guess. I had a good talk with Tony who explained how to service them and what to check and how on inspections.
51674

51675

cubdriver2
10-15-2020, 06:59 PM
Like people who have only driven AWD vehicles in snow, can't drive a 2WD in snow, don't know all the tricks. Interesting, PIO's on a blown touchdown may be a thing of the past?

I actually prefer the control I have with 2WD in snow.

Glenn

Narwhal
10-16-2020, 11:32 AM
Any idea how often the nitrogen charge on an Acme or TK1 system would need to be checked/serviced or is that an "it depends" question? AOSS seems relatively maintenance free, even if it doesn't provide the same degree of shock absorption.

RaisedByWolves
10-16-2020, 11:40 AM
Any idea how often the nitrogen charge on an Acme or TK1 system would need to be checked/serviced or is that an "it depends" question? AOSS seems relatively maintenance free, even if it doesn't provide the same degree of shock absorption.

I check the Acme's during annual. Nice thing with the acme is even if the nitrogen leaks out it doesn't deflate like the above pictured carbon cub

stewartb
10-16-2020, 11:51 AM
When you recognize more than your "normal" squat it indicates shock pressure is down. It's never happened to mine. I've played with pressure to find what I like best but once set it's stayed there, even after a year of inactivity.

One thing several TK-1 users are doing, including me, is to reduce shock pressure a little and add some tire inflation pressure. That induces a little squat. All the advantages of the good suspension and shock absorption with easier rolling. I'm pretty sure that's what you're seeing in some of the pictures you see of a well known yellow and gray Carbon Cub. And as already mentioned, having some drop-out is a good thing on rough ground. Otherwise you bunny hop over irregularities.

DENNY
10-16-2020, 12:09 PM
I was wondering why I was seeing that squat in all the pics. I find myself running the bushwheels harder with the AOSS also makes moving the plane a lot easier and takeoff is better.
DENNY

Oliver
10-16-2020, 07:22 PM
Any idea how often the nitrogen charge on an Acme or TK1 system would need to be checked/serviced or is that an "it depends" question? AOSS seems relatively maintenance free, even if it doesn't provide the same degree of shock absorption.

I can’t speak to Acme, no experience with them.

Re TK1’s
Tony asked for my typical flying weight, empty weight, and gear length.
Shipped them with 90 psi (if I recall)
I installed them right out of the box 800 hrs ago and , aside from occasional clean and lube moving parts, haven’t touched them since.

stewartb
10-16-2020, 08:32 PM
Probably more like 160-170-180#. Mine are at about 190# now on the longer gear.

Mine weren't charged when I got them. It surprised me. No problem, just unexpected.

stewartb
10-17-2020, 09:05 AM
Oliver, have you used zip ties on the lower strut shaft to measure your shock travel? It's the gauge for setting shock pressure for the airplane weight and use. I think 4" is the target but I'd have to dig up old texts to verify. If you aren't set up for full travel you give up one of the TK-1 performance advantages.

FWIW, TK also makes a single shock that uses and internal coil spring. https://store.tk1racing.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=237

Serious question for Acme users. How much shock length is determined by gas pressure? Can you release pressure to soften the suspension for light ops and increase pressure to maintain airplane height for heavy ops? I don't know anything about internal spring gas shocks. I know a fair bit about external spring gas shocks, and spring adjustment is how we adjust height with those.

stewartb
10-17-2020, 10:25 PM
Crickets!

Steve Pierce
10-17-2020, 10:56 PM
Crickets!
Kinda what I got when I asked you about your engines that had major metal contamination and everything had to be replaced.

I checked pressure on the early aluminum schrader valves and found no pressure on one. Was riding on the spring. No change it height. When I pressured it up it sure helped the rebound.

stewartb
10-17-2020, 11:05 PM
Seems like I selected the right shock!

As for metal in an engine? I figured you had to be joking.

Oliver
10-18-2020, 01:46 AM
Stewart,
havnt played with pressure on TK1’s. Gear stance is pretty normal when parked at current pressure.
Im running 31’s pretty low for more contact area for braking. Not feeling much rebound at current setting but I see your point. Ill try the zip tie trick, maybe fool around with pressures a bit.
thanks
Doug

Mauleguy
10-18-2020, 09:54 AM
I will answer but I am not an expert by any means. The shocks only have a small adjustment at the heim. If that is not enough you can send the shocks back in and have them lengthened or shortened by changing the rod out. They can also change other things inside the shock to be more custom to your type of landings. So if you don't like how your ride is or the length you can send them in and they will turn them around in about a day according to Matt. I liked the ride right out of the box, zero rebound from what I can tell. I did not like the length so I made my own adjustment to that in my machine shop, still playing with how I want the airplane to sit static. The Javron gear is not the same as Airframes or Atlee Dodge so mine were to long. I bought them from a guy in Alaska who had never installed them on a narrow body cub with I think Atlee gear. If you have a large envelope from light to heavy you may see the gear tucked in more than you like or splayed out but that is only a guess at this point since I have not loaded the airplane to gross weight. Need to play with that and see where the happy medium is for that also. So the answer is no I believe to changing the ride height by airing them up or down but I personally would not want to have to do that anyway PIMA. I love them and for what it is worth the machine work is top notch. I don't like the looks of the monster shock double thing and how it is assembled with the exposed slider. I have only flown them once on Mike Olsens cub and never put them to any test so other then landing in the back country of Idaho at a few spots I have no experience in the off road world. If I did I might think they were the best, lots more choices now then a while back and that is nice. I have the Black Ops Gen 4 and I am a fan at this point and I have landed and hit things with them and been surprised at how smooth they are even with more pressure in the tire then I usually run in my 35" tires. It use to be the tire doing the work now it is the shock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9lMZSNLvfA

stewartb
10-18-2020, 10:11 AM
If only there was a way to adapt either one to my Cessna!

thunderhead85
10-18-2020, 11:54 PM
I will answer but I am not an expert by any means. The shocks only have a small adjustment at the heim. If that is not enough you can send the shocks back in and have them lengthened or shortened by changing the rod out. They can also change other things inside the shock to be more custom to your type of landings. So if you don't like how your ride is or the length you can send them in and they will turn them around in about a day according to Matt. I liked the ride right out of the box, zero rebound from what I can tell. I did not like the length so I made my own adjustment to that in my machine shop, still playing with how I want the airplane to sit static. The Javron gear is not the same as Airframes or Atlee Dodge so mine were to long. I bought them from a guy in Alaska who had never installed them on a narrow body cub with I think Atlee gear. If you have a large envelope from light to heavy you may see the gear tucked in more than you like or splayed out but that is only a guess at this point since I have not loaded the airplane to gross weight. Need to play with that and see where the happy medium is for that also. So the answer is no I believe to changing the ride height by airing them up or down but I personally would not want to have to do that anyway PIMA. I love them and for what it is worth the machine work is top notch. I don't like the looks of the monster shock double thing and how it is assembled with the exposed slider. I have only flown them once on Mike Olsens cub and never put them to any test so other then landing in the back country of Idaho at a few spots I have no experience in the off road world. If I did I might think they were the best, lots more choices now then a while back and that is nice. I have the Black Ops Gen 4 and I am a fan at this point and I have landed and hit things with them and been surprised at how smooth they are even with more pressure in the tire then I usually run in my 35" tires. It use to be the tire doing the work now it is the shock.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9lMZSNLvfA

Mauleguy sounds like you built another Javron cub? How about some details on what you did different than the last one and comparisons? Also whatís different about the Javron gear? Always appreciate your input and real world experience!

Mauleguy
10-19-2020, 12:59 AM
51747
Yes, Narrow body, O-320 with 10-1 pistons, 35" bushwheels, electric system but no starter, 3" extended Javron gear, Baby bushwheel, Fineline seats from Anchorage,
Borer prop pitched 41, Acme gen 4 shocks, Superflight fabric and paint.

Javron gear is built 3" extended but not wider so than stock so it has shorter strut lengths then Airframes and Atlee

Mauleguy
10-19-2020, 01:09 AM
To add a little more detail about the difference between the last one, which was a wide body with extended squared off wings and long double slotted flaps. Hard to compare the two.

Wide body Cub flew slower but was not as sporty, hard to beat the handling of a stock cub wing.
Narrow body feels much lighter in the tail then the wide body cub but it has been a while since I flew a cub and tried to land short. It seems to leap off the ground but landing rolls right now seem long in comparison to Bushwacker where I can almost land with the brakes locked. I also flew Bushwacker almost a 100 hours in September so I was pretty tuned up by the time I got home from Moose hunting.5174851749

Steve Pierce
10-21-2020, 03:18 PM
I have been in Arkansas playing, not flying as much as I would have liked but a good time none the less. In my down time I got to thinking about this adjustability of the shock length. Is the pressure adjustment to change length on the TK1 as the trun buckle is on the AOSS and the Heims joint on the Acme?

stewartb
10-21-2020, 03:32 PM
Primary strut length is determined by the main tube. My first gear took two tries to get it right and the long gear was perfect. All three sets of tubes have two length holes drilled. A bolt near the top of the assembly captures the hole to establish length and an adjustable rod end allows fine tuning. My rod ends are screwed all the way in. I think Tony allows 1/2" of threads to show. You can adjust struts to keep tires vertical with whatever pressure you prefer. Or add/decrease pressure as needed and let them splay a little when soft.

Steve Pierce
10-22-2020, 07:12 AM
Thanks, I see how the system works now and that you are running the tires with a camber angle perpendicular to the ground. At one point I thought y'all were changing that camber angle. Thanks for the pictures.

stewartb
10-22-2020, 09:06 AM
My gear is a little splayed out. I could shorten the tube and extend the rod end to square it up but I'd rather not. A little splay doesn't bother me. If I move toward lowering the shock pressure? Shortening the tube may come into play.

adamgrenda
02-17-2021, 11:52 AM
Here are two pictures of what TK1s allow you to do. I have an experimental cub on 35s thatís 1226 empty weight. Iíve had Tonyís shocks on for 800 hours and the customer service level is top notch. I change adjust pressure about 3 times a year due to changing gear to skis and also adjust for hunting season. I tend to run mine fairly stiff in fear of bottoming out a shock. They are incredible and I believe if you can keep the tail up the shocks will eat up most of the bad stuff. For takeoff I stand on the brake and the tail comes up and never touches. Let the shocks eat I say and you pull the flaps when itís ready to go. I canít figure out a video or I would post the one Stewart references in the first few posts showing the shocks getting a pounding. I still have slightly bent front gear bolts on tires but only a few thousandths and skis well any bolt will bend there with all that force. Love the product and you couldnít pay me to switch. I live in rural Alaska where if I break something there isnít a pile of folks I can call to come get me parts. I trust Tonyís product for this reason alone thatís built like a tank. I also agree with the YouTube pilots statement above and have been saying that for a long time as those experts donít know what they are talking about most times. Iíve also had a student pull power hanging a plane on the prop 12í up off the pavement and it started to roll. I pushed in full power and jammed the stick forward and slammed all the rudder I could and we took a huge hit. We get airborne again and I looked down and saw we still had a gear leg barely. Came back and set it down lightly and drug a brake hard as we were taxiing to the hangar with Tonyís shocks doing their thing.


Also for reference the picture without the hunter I was stuck on 35s. Full power and all the stick movement wouldnít budge the plane. I had to dig out the ground with my boots and hands to build a ramp to crawl out of.


5423754238

Dave Calkins
02-18-2021, 04:09 PM
Adam, what psi is in yer 35’s in the top photo?

Dave Calkins
02-18-2021, 04:10 PM
I could guess more psi than yu woulda wanted?

adamgrenda
02-18-2021, 04:18 PM
I could guess more psi than yu woulda wanted?Somewhere between 5-6 Some guys I know run closer to 8-10 with shocks but I’ve tried it and don’t like it. I feel the tire needs to take some of the hit before the shocks takes over. Granted you need a stiffer tire with shocks to help activate the shock is how I Understand Tony’s explanation. I used to have bungees and was 3-4 a lot and these shocks still put a smile on my face.

Dave Calkins
02-18-2021, 07:06 PM
3-4 psi and that tire woulda rolled over the hole lip??!

Dave Calkins
02-18-2021, 07:07 PM
Tony told me harder tires work better with real suspension on the gear. maybe there is a drawback not having marshmallows at 3-4 psi

Crash, Jr.
02-18-2021, 10:12 PM
I've talked to a couple pilots that raised their tire pressure but dropped it back down because the harder tires didn't grip as well when braking and stopping distances were higher. They work okay on fairly level ground but on uneven ground the softer tire is better able to conform to the surface and get grip.

adamgrenda
02-18-2021, 10:17 PM
3-4 psi and that tire woulda rolled over the hole lip??!


ya I donít think lower tire pressure would of helped much. Pics donít do that hope justice but there were some good ones in that spot. Another reason why I like 35s so when I misjudged something you have a good safety margin. The really impressive thing to me is the takeoff and lift the tail and let go of the brakes and itís incredible to see those shocks take the hits they do and you just stay center in your seat and itís not like a car crash on bungess like I used to have every time.

stewartb
02-18-2021, 10:33 PM
Adam, put your video up. That one's pretty impressive. Not many guys will do that with their planes.

stewartb
02-19-2021, 12:02 AM
Here's Adam. This looks pretty benign because of the suspension!

https://youtu.be/TpvXNPMhVYQ

courierguy
02-19-2021, 09:52 AM
Looks like you faired the shocks.....?

adamgrenda
02-19-2021, 10:38 AM
Looks like you faired the shocks.....?


What do you mean?

stewartb
02-19-2021, 01:10 PM
I like that clip. It illustrates why gear bolts get bent. The deflection and deformation of the tires at takeoff speed is impressive.

courierguy
02-19-2021, 01:12 PM
Looked like aluminum or maybe Lexan in a somewhat airfoil shape around the shocks, hard to see, a guess.

RVBottomly
02-19-2021, 03:31 PM
Wow. Look at how much those wheels are working. That is a better demonstration than most of the promo videos I've seen.

adamgrenda
02-20-2021, 12:23 AM
Looked like aluminum or maybe Lexan in a somewhat airfoil shape around the shocks, hard to see, a guess.I donít have anything covering mine. I keep them lubed up with LPS2 especially the right one as the exhaust gets on it the most.

DENNY
02-20-2021, 02:31 PM
That video shows a lot. People often don't realize that a cub with a working load even with some wind takes a while to get into the air. The drag from the ground roll and rough ground also slows the plane down. The beating the gear/shock/tire absorb is very impressive and keeping the tire in contact with the ground is key when it comes to control. I think Adam was cheating with a back seater lighter than most however.:lol: Great video.
DENNY

adamgrenda
02-20-2021, 02:45 PM
That video shows a lot. People often don't realize that a cub with a working load even with some wind takes a while to get into the air. The drag from the ground roll and rough ground also slows the plane down. The beating the gear/shock/tire absorb is very impressive and keeping the tire in contact with the ground is key when it comes to control. I think Adam was cheating with a back seater lighter than most however.:lol: Great video.
DENNY


Denny it was uphill with a 20kt quartering headwind or take the downhill. First load I took the downhill and it was okay but then the wind picked up. Iím glad people can see a real world example of what a loaded cub looks like. Folks ask me all the time it takes to get off the ground I say 120í empty on pavement and 600-800í with a full load of moose in the nasty stuff. Plan accordingly. Also youíre just jealous my hunting partner is cuter than yours! She is a crack shot too.