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Wubbs
03-23-2018, 11:57 AM
I am in the process of adding a Alternator and Starter on my 1946 P11 Cub, I bought the drop exhaust stacks LH and RH which lowers the muffler to allow for the starter and alternator.
Now I discovered the drop exhaust stack on the right hand side (looking at the front of the cub) is to low and does not allow for the strut , nose cone and cowl to fit :-x
Has anyone had any experience with this?

Thanks

W

bob turner
03-23-2018, 01:50 PM
Stop for just a minute, and consider what you are doing to the resale value. Once that 337 is filed, your aircraft is no longer eligible for grandfather status re: ADS-B. Ever! I just saw a J-3 similarly modified. It had every thing we needed, a good price, and an alternator. The alternator killed the deal.

Our starter equipped J-3s get between 50 and 70 starts on a single battery charge - 12 Ah Odyssey.

That, of course, assumes you consider resale and the US as your market - I have no idea how it works in Canada.

BC12D-4-85
03-23-2018, 02:04 PM
Starter yes - alternator probably not. There's other ways to recharge a battery like solar in summer or a periodic 12V drop cord from a nearby vehicle's charging system. Even a generator supported AC-DC charger before flight. That assumes later minimal electrical demand.

Gary

mvivion
03-23-2018, 02:07 PM
Consider also what this addition is going to do to your empty weight and therefore the useful load. Most of these airplanes have little enough useful load in any case, and any additional weight may well make them a single seat airplane.....if they're not already.

MTV

KevinJ
03-23-2018, 04:03 PM
Consider also what this addition is going to do to your empty weight and therefore the useful load. Most of these airplanes have little enough useful load in any case, and any additional weight may well make them a single seat airplane.....if they're not already.

MTV

Out of curiosity, how much weight would an alt., starter and everything else associated add. (Ballpark)

BC12D-4-85
03-23-2018, 04:08 PM
One stop shop: http://www.bandc.aero/index.aspx Check the weights.

Problem is Piper thought the PA-11 was still a J-3 and didn't do much to change its GW. Kept it on the same TCDS at 1220 wheels and 1350 floats.

Gary

JP
03-23-2018, 05:24 PM
The 90 is simple to start. Flip. Starts. Avionics, if any, can be run off a small rechargeable battery. I run my A-5 and intercom off one. I wouldn't bother to convert.

bob turner
03-23-2018, 06:30 PM
Hey JP - I am 76, and still ok for solo hand start. I can see the day coming when that will not be true. My hangar lease runs until I turn 91, and at that time I shall push the button and head for a country airport somewhere.

Not every pilot is good at solo hand start.

JP
03-23-2018, 08:03 PM
Hey JP - I am 76, and still ok for solo hand start. I can see the day coming when that will not be true. My hangar lease runs until I turn 91, and at that time I shall push the button and head for a country airport somewhere.

Not every pilot is good at solo hand start.Good point. Lightweight starter and lightweight lipo battery for you. A22 into a headset. Just keep flying.

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using SuperCub.Org mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=93960)

BC12D-4-85
03-23-2018, 08:35 PM
The only time I had an issue with hand propping my PA-11 was when air temps fell below freezing or I was on floats drifting from shore in September. Even with a pre-heated engine the sucking in of cold air soon condensed any fuel from the carb or single primer line tapped into the indiction spider.

The partial fix was having a few cylinders primed directly. I already had dual impulse bendix mags, idle fuel set right, and lots of experience. Never added a starter. Too much BS to change the -8 engine parts plus added weight.

Now with a similar but -12 engine in my Taylorcraft I have a B&C starter and 12A alternator. Battery is a sealed Odyssey SBS-J16. All approved and I've never looked back. Or failed to start in the cold.

Gary

cubdriver2
03-23-2018, 08:55 PM
Hey JP - I am 76, and still ok for solo hand start. I can see the day coming when that will not be true. My hangar lease runs until I turn 91, and at that time I shall push the button and head for a country airport somewhere.

Not every pilot is good at solo hand start.

Bob, if you want, I can get 84 year old Len Buckle who's got a hangar by you to come out and give you a flip if you need one ;-)

Glenn

cubdriver2
03-23-2018, 08:57 PM
Out of curiosity, how much weight would an alt., starter and everything else associated add. (Ballpark)

40lbs?

Glenn

hotrod180
03-23-2018, 11:11 PM
Stop for just a minute, and consider what you are doing to the resale value. Once that 337 is filed, your aircraft is no longer eligible for grandfather status re: ADS-B. Ever! .......

Not sure this is correct.
As I understand it, the requirement for ADS-B goes hand-in-hand with that for a mode C transponder. Sort of.
From FAR 91.215(b)


(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—

Unfortunately the regs read a bit different re ADS-B.
From FAR 91.225(e)


(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—

Key difference-- "engine driven electrical system" for transponders vs "electrical system" for ADS-B.
In other words, even a battery-only electrical system triggers the ADS-B requirement.
That's how I read it anyways.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=14:2.0.1.3.10#se14.2.91_1227

BC12D-4-85
03-24-2018, 02:16 AM
40lbs?

Glenn

Can be less with B&C or Sky-Tec components plus light battery maybe not approved yet but desirable.

Gary

dgapilot
03-24-2018, 06:49 AM
Not sure this is correct.
As I understand it, the requirement for ADS-B goes hand-in-hand with that for a mode C transponder. Sort of.
From FAR 91.215(b)


(3) Notwithstanding paragraph (b)(2) of this section, any aircraft which was not originally certificated with an engine-driven electrical system or which has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, balloon or glider may conduct operations in the airspace within 30 nautical miles of an airport listed in appendix D, section 1 of this part provided such operations are conducted—

Unfortunately the regs read a bit different re ADS-B.
From FAR 91.225(e)


(e) The requirements of paragraph (b) of this section do not apply to any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed, including balloons and gliders. These aircraft may conduct operations without ADS-B Out in the airspace specified in paragraphs (d)(2) and (d)(4) of this section. Operations authorized by this section must be conducted—

Key difference-- "engine driven electrical system" for transponders vs "electrical system" for ADS-B.
In other words, even a battery-only electrical system triggers the ADS-B requirement.
That's how I read it anyways.

https://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-idx?node=14:2.0.1.3.10#se14.2.91_1227

You will find a copy of the FAA letter of interpretation I got from FAA somewhere on here. FAA says they both mean the same.


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Steve Pierce
03-24-2018, 06:49 AM
I am in the process of adding a Alternator and Starter on my 1946 P11 Cub, I bought the drop exhaust stacks LH and RH which lowers the muffler to allow for the starter and alternator.
Now I discovered the drop exhaust stack on the right hand side (looking at the front of the cub) is to low and does not allow for the strut , nose cone and cowl to fit :-x
Has anyone had any experience with this?

Thanks

W

Most -12 engine installs in a J3 that I have seen require trimming the cowling where the dropped exhaust enters the cowling. We had one that they angled it down after it entered the cowl so no cowl modification needed.
35888

35889

skywagon8a
03-24-2018, 07:11 AM
Not sure this is correct.
As I understand it, the requirement for ADS-B goes hand-in-hand with that for a mode C transponder. Sort of.


.... was not originally certificated with an electrical system
We beat this to death a while ago. The key is the definition of "electrical system". It is my understanding that to be called an "electrical system" there must be an engine driven electrical generating source. If the source of the electricity does not come from a engine driven source then the airplane does not have an "electrical system".

My airplane has a wind driven generator and therefor does not have an "electrical system". Therefor it can and does operate under class B airspace without a transponder or ADS-B legitimately.
Bob Turner is correct.

N86250
03-24-2018, 10:01 AM
Maybe this will help. I saved it from somewhere. Thought it was from here. Maybe it was from the Bonanza group. I saved it as a pdf with the FAA letterhead.




U.S. Department
of Transportation
Federal Aviation
Administration
JAN - 5 2~17
David Schober
I 0919 Green Valley Rd.
Union Bridge, MD 21791
Office of the Chief Counsel 800 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20591
Re: Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast Out equipment requirements
Dear Mr. Schober:
This letter responds to your request for a legal interpretation dated July 7, 2015, regarding
the Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment requirements in
14 C.F.R. § 91.225. Specifically, you have asked whether these requirements apply to
aircraft originally certificated without an electrical system but which have subsequently had
batteries or electric starters installed.
Section 91.225(b) requires aircraft operating in certain airspace to have equipment installed
that meets: (1) the performance requirements ofTSO-C166b (Extended Squitter ADS-Band
Traffic Information Service-Broadcast Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of
1090 MHz) or TSO-C154c (Universal Access Transceiver ADS-B Equipment Operating on
the Frequency of 978 MHz); and (2) the requirements of§ 91.227. These equipment
requirements do not apply to "any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an
electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed,
including balloons and gliders." 14 C.F.R. § 91.225(e).
You note that the exception for aircraft to be equipped with a transponder in§ 91.215(a)(5)
uses the term "engine-driven electrical system" rather than simply "electrical system" as in
the ADS-B Out exception in§ 91.225(e). In the notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) and
final rule for ADS-B Out, the FAA did not indicate that the omission of the word "enginedriven"
from§ 91.225(e) was intended to mean something different from the transponder
regulation. In fact, in describing the transponder exception in the ADS-B Out NPRM, the
FAA used the term "electrical system" rather than "engine-driven electrical system." 72 FR
56947, 56958 fn.23 (Oct. 5, 2007). As such, we have concluded that the same aircraft
excluded from the transponder requirement are excluded from the ADS-B Out equipage.
Accordingly, an aircraft that subsequently has been installed with batteries or an electric
starter would not be required to equip for ADS-B Out. The FAA may consider a technical
amendment in the future to remove any confusion due to the discrepancy between the
language in§ 91.215(a)(5) and§ 91.225(e).
This response was prepared by Anne Moore, an attorney in the Regulations Division of the
Office of the Chief Counsel, and coordinated with the Aircraft Certification Service. If you
have any additional questions regarding this matter, please contact my office at (202) 267-
3073.
Sincerely,
Lorelei Peter
Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations

dgapilot
03-24-2018, 12:34 PM
Maybe this will help. I saved it from somewhere. Thought it was from here. Maybe it was from the Bonanza group. I saved it as a pdf with the FAA letterhead.




U.S. Department
of Transportation
Federal Aviation
Administration
JAN - 5 2~17
David Schober
I 0919 Green Valley Rd.
Union Bridge, MD 21791
Office of the Chief Counsel 800 Independence Ave., S.W.
Washington, D.C. 20591
Re: Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast Out equipment requirements
Dear Mr. Schober:
This letter responds to your request for a legal interpretation dated July 7, 2015, regarding
the Automatic Dependent Surveillance-Broadcast (ADS-B) Out equipment requirements in
14 C.F.R. § 91.225. Specifically, you have asked whether these requirements apply to
aircraft originally certificated without an electrical system but which have subsequently had
batteries or electric starters installed.
Section 91.225(b) requires aircraft operating in certain airspace to have equipment installed
that meets: (1) the performance requirements ofTSO-C166b (Extended Squitter ADS-Band
Traffic Information Service-Broadcast Equipment Operating on the Radio Frequency of
1090 MHz) or TSO-C154c (Universal Access Transceiver ADS-B Equipment Operating on
the Frequency of 978 MHz); and (2) the requirements of§ 91.227. These equipment
requirements do not apply to "any aircraft that was not originally certificated with an
electrical system, or that has not subsequently been certified with such a system installed,
including balloons and gliders." 14 C.F.R. § 91.225(e).
You note that the exception for aircraft to be equipped with a transponder in§ 91.215(a)(5)
uses the term "engine-driven electrical system" rather than simply "electrical system" as in
the ADS-B Out exception in§ 91.225(e). In the notice of proposed rulemaking (NPRM) and
final rule for ADS-B Out, the FAA did not indicate that the omission of the word "enginedriven"
from§ 91.225(e) was intended to mean something different from the transponder
regulation. In fact, in describing the transponder exception in the ADS-B Out NPRM, the
FAA used the term "electrical system" rather than "engine-driven electrical system." 72 FR
56947, 56958 fn.23 (Oct. 5, 2007). As such, we have concluded that the same aircraft
excluded from the transponder requirement are excluded from the ADS-B Out equipage.
Accordingly, an aircraft that subsequently has been installed with batteries or an electric
starter would not be required to equip for ADS-B Out. The FAA may consider a technical
amendment in the future to remove any confusion due to the discrepancy between the
language in§ 91.215(a)(5) and§ 91.225(e).
This response was prepared by Anne Moore, an attorney in the Regulations Division of the
Office of the Chief Counsel, and coordinated with the Aircraft Certification Service. If you
have any additional questions regarding this matter, please contact my office at (202) 267-
3073.
Sincerely,
Lorelei Peter
Assistant Chief Counsel for Regulations

That’s the letter I was talking about.


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yellowbird69
03-24-2018, 12:59 PM
Bob, if you want, I can get 84 year old Len Buckle who's got a hangar by you to come out and give you a flip if you need one ;-)

Glenn

and maybe this 85 yr old geezer can join Len---LOL--Capt Cub