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Naaalex
05-10-2016, 03:21 PM
Hi, Cub lovers !

I fly on skis with a D140 Mousquetaire (French airplane).
Our system is hydraulically retractable (hand pumped!), here is a video I did recently (time accelerated :) ) :


https://youtu.be/FDzGMy408qU

I also own a Piper L18C (no-flaps PA18 modified with a 100hp TCM O-200).
I land on mountain strips with my cub but only on wheels.

I would love to land my baby cub on snow with skis but as I depart from a seaside airport, I need to depart on wheels... which means I need retractable skis.
But retractable skis as we have on our D140s are very heavy (skis+wheels+hydraulic sytem).

I am afraid that this system would be too heavy for my little cub, especially when we land in the mountains at quite high altitude (from 8000 to more than 11000 ft high).
That is why I would like to know if some of you already flew cubs with retractable skis and small engines such as mine, and which system they had installed ?

Happy skiing

Alexandra

cubdriver2
05-10-2016, 03:48 PM
This is what I'm think of doing, same plane as you



~http://www.datumair.com/products-info.php?id=series2000-light


www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K3fPhGtTmw&feature=youtu.be


Glenn

phdigger123
05-10-2016, 03:54 PM
How about wheel penetration skis? Trickair.com

Roddy
05-10-2016, 04:45 PM
How about wheel penetration skis? Trickair.com
We have flown 11 winters on fixed penetration wheels skis on RANS S-7S (100 hp).
would highly recommend this style of ski. Simplistic, light wt. and despite what you may read,
good performance, in fact excellent performance. No pumps, no hoses, no wires, no wondering if this bolex works and if it's in the right postion for landing or not. With the Datums, or others, I have no idea how you go from your hanger, across the ramp, then taxi directly onto an unplowed runway without frigging with the wheel position(?). Someone could enlighten me. Tested a new set of Summit Skis (LSA fixed penetration)
in March on our S-7, they'll be going on a Super Legend, and they are a great performing ski!
They look great and install easy. A very professionally done ski.
Roddy

Naaalex
05-10-2016, 05:02 PM
Glenn : the DATUM seems to be very similar to our system, but electrically powered. The good thing is that it is probably really lightweight. The bad thing is that it is probably less sturdy and less reliable. But that looks like a very interesting option. I wonder if this is only for experimental or if there is a corresponding STC ?

Phdigger & Roddy : I did not know those penetrating skis ? I have seen a video on youtube, the TRICKAIR seems to be really easy to install or uninstall. But is it possible to depart from a concrete runway with those skis on, or you can use them only on snow ?

mvivion
05-10-2016, 05:06 PM
We have flown 11 winters on fixed penetration wheels skis on RANS S-7S (100 hp).
would highly recommend this style of ski. Simplistic, light wt. and despite what you may read,
good performance, in fact excellent performance. No pumps, no hoses, no wires, no wondering if this bolex works and if it's in the right postion for landing or not. With the Datums, or others, I have no idea how you go from your hanger, across the ramp, then taxi directly onto an unplowed runway without frigging with the wheel position(?). Someone could enlighten me. Tested a new set of Summit Skis (LSA fixed penetration)
in March on our S-7, they'll be going on a Super Legend, and they are a great performing ski!
They look great and install easy. A very professionally done ski.
Roddy

Roddy,

Thanks for the information on the skis. Could you provide information on the typical snow depths and density altitudes you operate in? Do you have a link to the Summit ski's?

Thanks,

MTV

Naaalex
05-10-2016, 05:13 PM
After watching some videos on supercub.org + youtube, I see that you can taxi with the Trickair on a concrete runway, cool :)

My question is the same as Mvivion's question : in what depth and quality of snow can you land ?
On most of the videos, I have seen people landing on quite flat and clean snow surfaces.

As I intend to land on glaciers, in the middle of nowhere with quite deep snow layers of quite variable qualities, I was wondering if the Trickair skis would do the job?

Alexandra

Edited : Just received your private message, thanks Mvivion !!! :)

Roddy
05-10-2016, 05:13 PM
Glenn : the DATUM seems to be very similar to our system, but electrically powered. The good thing is that it is probably really lightweight. The bad thing is that it is probably less sturdy and less reliable. But that looks like a very interesting option. I wonder if this is only for experimental or if there is a corresponding STC ?

Phdigger & Roddy : I did not know those penetrating skis ? I have seen a video on youtube, the TRICKAIR seems to be really easy to install or uninstall. But is it possible to depart from a concrete runway with those skis on, or you can use them only on snow ?
Both TrickAir and Summits are designed to operated on hard surfaces such as asphalt or concrete and go directly to snow and vise versa. Both makes have good reputations from what I have read and heard plus from accually testing a set of Summits. And the they are easy to install and remove after the initial inside brackets are installed. Once the inside brackets are installed (maybe 2-3 hours work and they stay on permanently) after that it's about 10 minutes for on or off.
Excellant design really. Check with these manufactures as you'll likely need to be running 850 tires. (That's what the Summits we tested were designed for).
Roddy

Roddy
05-10-2016, 06:46 PM
[QUOTE=mvivion;659517]Roddy,

Thanks for the information on the skis. Could you provide information on the typical snow depths and density altitudes you operate in? Do you have a link to the Summit ski's?

Thanks,
We are on the east coast of Canada, at or barely above sea level.
Most of our winter flying is -5C to -15C and in the spring often +3C or a little
warmer. The Summits were tested on a 0C day in 12" plus inches of new snow.
excellant performance. (No tail ski). My old skis, home made wheel skis served us
well, they're also fixed penetrations wheel skis, however, only 700 square inches of ski
verses the 1100 square inches on the Summits. Made a huge difference as in getting airborne
much quicker. I'm aware that operating way above sea level in deep powder, something I've never done
can't be compared to what I've just written. I'm also aware that this is a cub site (and a good one, I love Cubs too), but you can't compare a 100 hp cub with a light RANS with a 100hp Rotax and a fine prop.
Seriously. That needs to be considered. But make no mistake..a J3 is my favorited plane and I'd had one if there was on to buy when I was buying.
Roddy

RAC cubs
05-10-2016, 06:46 PM
Those 850 tires will add weight.

68Papa
05-10-2016, 07:01 PM
I've never used either ski, but have looked at the Trick Air ski up close. Production quality is very good and I like double "bogey wheels" in the rear. Both skis are carbon fiber - I think. The Summit ski is massively lighter than the Trick Air, at least according to their websites. The Summit says 25 lbs per ski, includes rigging. Trick Air says 60 lbs per ski! Yikes!

Roddy
05-10-2016, 07:07 PM
Summit is telling the truth on the wt. we weighed them and they are indeed 25 lbs
including cables and springs.
Also, going to a 850 smooth aero classic will add minimal wt. and
get you a better angle of attack. Sissie 600 tires? Naw.
Roddy

stewartb
05-10-2016, 07:14 PM
100hp @ 11,000' doesn't sound like penetration ski territory. Rosti Fernandez skis are approved in Europe, aren't they? Isn't that what they're made for, high altitude Alps flying?

Roddy
05-10-2016, 07:28 PM
I'd say it ain't 100 hp cub territory no matter what. 11,000 feet
and land in deep snow and expect to go?? Ain't happening.
Not even with golden skis.
Roddy

Roddy
05-10-2016, 07:32 PM
Wow, our imaginations run wild sometimes lol!
100 hp at 11,000 feet in deep powder and we're discussing which "ski"
will work.... Oh well. Fun to dream.
Roddy

cubdriver2
05-10-2016, 08:29 PM
From what I've seen I'm not impressed with the TrickAirs. The Summits on Joes Carbon Cub work great, but at 900lb and 180hp any skis might work great. Winter last we met one of our cubdrivers on here with a 100hp Pa11 on 1500 Summits, even with deep mashed potato snow he was off fairly quick. He also had a FA for the skis. The Datums are well respected and are 2k less then the Summits with the exchange rate right now. Datums only has room for 600x6 tires

Glenn

courierguy
05-10-2016, 09:54 PM
We have flown 11 winters on fixed penetration wheels skis on RANS S-7S (100 hp).
would highly recommend this style of ski. Simplistic, light wt. and despite what you may read,
good performance, in fact excellent performance. No pumps, no hoses, no wires, no wondering if this bolex works and if it's in the right postion for landing or not. With the Datums, or others, I have no idea how you go from your hanger, across the ramp, then taxi directly onto an unplowed runway without frigging with the wheel position(?). Someone could enlighten me. Tested a new set of Summit Skis (LSA fixed penetration)
in March on our S-7, they'll be going on a Super Legend, and they are a great performing ski!
They look great and install easy. A very professionally done ski.
Roddy

Easy..... that's what the retract system is for after all. You flick the switches and wait a few seconds, and you're good to go. I probably have a more complicated procedure to take off then most, due to the slope my runway is on. I push mine out of my hangar on the tires, up to the sloped edge of my ramp that leads to the 12% grade runway, oh hell, just watch this. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K3fPhGtTmw

I haven't landed at 11K, but have at 9900' once, and 8 to 9K a lot and often. Taken off again too! The Datums rule when it comes to deep powder, up high, I also like and need the large amount of tire I have sticking out, I can handle soft gravel, dirt, etc. Experimental only.

aktango58
05-11-2016, 12:06 AM
Aeroski R2800's

Used them on a 90 hp champ. Did not get above 4,000 with it, but did have a knee deep wet snow day and it came out just fine. Downhill at altitude. He floated very well, and I often used it on 970' with a big drop off the end. (light on that one)

C130jake
05-11-2016, 04:42 AM
http://www.summitaircraft.com


Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

skywagon8a
05-11-2016, 05:09 AM
Alexandra,
Who is the manufacturer of the skis in your video?

Naaalex
05-11-2016, 08:10 AM
Hi Roddy

it's kinda "Homemade". :)

My mountain flying airclub has its own fleet and maintenance facility.
They developed this system for themselves and got it certified.
Now they also sell it to aircraft owners (but this is a very small business).

I can can get more details if you want.

Alexandra

Naaalex
05-11-2016, 08:17 AM
Hi again Roddy

About your other message above : do not apologize about what you say concerning 100hp Cubs.
That is just realistic.

I love my little plane but this does not mean I cannot be realistic about it ... If I did not install skis yet it is because I am concerned by this W&B and performance problem.
I am still not sure that it is worth the hassle, because it would be useless to get a cub on skis that does not have the ability to land and depart safely from where I intend to fly !

You are exactly pointing the heart of the whole brainstorming ...
Our D140s have 180 or 200 hp.
I know some Cubs similar to mine landed on these glaciers in the past, but they had permanent skis (no wheels) which were significantly lighter.

Alexandra

ps : sorry for my English ;-)

Sideslip
05-11-2016, 08:49 AM
I flew a stock C85 cub on fluidyne c-2200 hydraulic wheel skis. It's approximately an 90lb penalty. Each ski weighs roughly 45lbs or slightly less. Unfortunately I can't help you with highe altitudes, but it flew great at 1000ft.

Roddy
05-11-2016, 09:05 AM
Hi again Roddy

About your other message above : do not apologize about what you say concerning 100hp Cubs.
That is just realistic.

I love my little plane but this does not mean I cannot be realistic about it ... If I did not install skis yet it is because I am concerned by this W&B and performance problem.
I am still not sure that it is worth the hassle, because it would be useless to get a cub on skis that does not have the ability to land and depart safely from where I intend to fly !

You are exactly pointing the heart of the whole brainstorming ...
Our D140s have 180 or 200 hp.
I know some Cubs similar to mine landed on these glaciers in the past, but they had permanent skis (no wheels) which were significantly lighter.

Alexandra

ps : sorry for my English ;-)
Your English is fine! You should hear or read some of our English in our little
east coast province...
You have an enviable place to fly! Your flying club did well to design, build and
certify those skis- no easy task really.
Wt. and balance is a concern for sure. Our S-7 with Roberts Bush Gear
and one person on board puts the C. Of G. right at the most forward limit.
Roddy

aktango58
05-11-2016, 09:20 AM
Your English is fine! You should hear or read some of our English in our little
east coast province...

Roddy

That is English spoken?:wink:

cubdriver2
05-11-2016, 09:58 AM
That is English spoken?:wink:

You had trouble telling what those Mainers and New Hampshire folks were saying :lol:

Glenn

mvivion
05-11-2016, 01:09 PM
[QUOTE=mvivion;659517]Roddy,

Thanks for the information on the skis. Could you provide information on the typical snow depths and density altitudes you operate in? Do you have a link to the Summit ski's?

Thanks,
We are on the east coast of Canada, at or barely above sea level.
Most of our winter flying is -5C to -15C and in the spring often +3C or a little
warmer. The Summits were tested on a 0C day in 12" plus inches of new snow.
excellant performance. (No tail ski). My old skis, home made wheel skis served us
well, they're also fixed penetrations wheel skis, however, only 700 square inches of ski
verses the 1100 square inches on the Summits. Made a huge difference as in getting airborne
much quicker. I'm aware that operating way above sea level in deep powder, something I've never done
can't be compared to what I've just written. I'm also aware that this is a cub site (and a good one, I love Cubs too), but you can't compare a 100 hp cub with a light RANS with a 100hp Rotax and a fine prop.
Seriously. That needs to be considered. But make no mistake..a J3 is my favorited plane and I'd had one if there was on to buy when I was buying.
Roddy


Roddy,

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I haven't had the opportunity to fly the Summit skis. They sound like they may be a nice setup. You are absolutely correct that operating ANY plane at 11,000 feet is going to be a challenge. Then again, ski flying in general is an invitation to improve one's winter camping skills.

There are so many seemingly insignificant issues with penetration skis that it's hard to judge them without actually trying them out in real life conditions. The small tail wheels on many of these skis can induce a tremendous amount of drag by themselves. The old Landes penetration skis were notorious for that, but Landes changed the tail wheel design, and I understand that really improved performance.

I've operated at some fairly high elevations on skis, but nothing as high as 11,000 feet. That's going to be a challenge. That 100 hp engine will be making about as much power as a push lawn mower engine at that height.

I'll look at the Summit skis more. At the weight they advertise, they must be carbon fiber. I think the Trick Air skis are fiberglass not carbon fiber, and the 60 pound weight would seem to suggest that as well. That's a lot of weight to add to a little airplane.

The Rosti Fernandez 8001 skis are magnificent skis, and regularly operate at very high elevations in Europe. Total additional weight is around 75 pounds, which is amazing for hydraulic retractables. But, like all retractable skis, they are not inexpensive.

MTV

stewartb
05-11-2016, 01:41 PM
Thomas quoted me a few months back on Rostis. At that time with the then-current exchange rate the Rostis were $14K and change USD. That's not bad relative to Airglas and Wipaire packages.

mvivion
05-11-2016, 06:24 PM
Thomas quoted me a few months back on Rostis. At that time with the then-current exchange rate the Rostis were $14K and change USD. That's not bad relative to Airglas and Wipaire packages.

Stewart,

Actually, compared to the competition, that's a very good deal.

MTV

mam90
05-11-2016, 06:26 PM
Here is my 100 hp cub on the Summits. They perform very well and are light. The snow in this picture was probably waist deep, and I sunk over my knees when I stepped out of the airplane. Flew quite a bit on straight ski's and Landis wheel ski's in AK. I highly recommend the Summits as a good compromise when you have to operate a light aircraft and straight ski's are not practical.

courierguy
05-11-2016, 09:53 PM
The Datum skis, 5 years or so ago, with shipping and customs fees, were around 5 K inc. the tail ski. I wanted as much ski area with least snow drag as possible when on snow, and the most tire possible when on dirt or gravel, that seems still to mean a retract. I wish I could go with a penetration type, and save the weight and complexity of the retracts, no question they are the right choice for many, but for my flying the Datum's have worked great. If they made Rosti's LSA sized and non cert ( less money?) I'd check them out.

68Papa
05-11-2016, 11:14 PM
The Datum skis, 5 years or so ago, with shipping and customs fees, were around 5 K inc. the tail ski. I wanted as much ski area with least snow drag as possible when on snow, and the most tire possible when on dirt or gravel, that seems still to mean a retract. I wish I could go with a penetration type, and save the weight and complexity of the retracts, no question they are the right choice for many, but for my flying the Datum's have worked great. If they made Rosti's LSA sized and non cert ( less money?) I'd check them out.

I almost pulled the trigger this winter on a set of Datums. Come next winter, I may just do that. At the current exchange rate, it seems silly not to have a set. The quality seems impressive, but I had my doubts whether or not they would hold up under serious use. Hmmmmmm....

Roddy
05-12-2016, 04:50 AM
I almost pulled the trigger this winter on a set of Datums. Come next winter, I may just do that. At the current exchange rate, it seems silly not to have a set. The quality seems impressive, but I had my doubts whether or not they would hold up under serious use. Hmmmmmm....
I think courierguy "uses" his Datums. He flys into some impressive places.
Roddy

40m
05-12-2016, 04:57 AM
Which model Summits do you have?


Here is my 100 hp cub on the Summits. They perform very well and are light. The snow in this picture was probably waist deep, and I sunk over my knees when I stepped out of the airplane. Flew quite a bit on straight ski's and Landis wheel ski's in AK. I highly recommend the Summits as a good compromise when you have to operate a light aircraft and straight ski's are not practical.

courierguy
05-12-2016, 06:20 AM
I work them pretty good, as I recall mine are good for up to 2000 lb. gross weight, which is over my LSA weight limit, which I would NEVER go over....... once on the skis they are pretty bulletproof, if there is a weak point it's in the retraction process. Taxing up (briskly, because of the grade) my first steel ramp back up to the hangar, I caught a bolt head (long story short, I had sheet plastic used to slick up dump truck beds on the steel ramp, until it blew off, so more self tapping big hex head sheet metal screws, still blew off, more screws... then snagged on one just wrong) that brought me to a rapid full stop from a brisk taxi, at gross weight or so. That made me glad I had the Roberts Gear mod anyway, but I did manage to bend one of the aluminum retraction tubes, but this impact was way beyond anything encountered in mountain ski flying, and I'm glad something gave to ease the stress on other things. And, they still were ski worthy, just not able to be electrically retracted to the wheel mode. I've never had occasion to worry about them in the snow, once on the skis, you're good.

Too cheap to order another replacement strut from Datum, and paying the damn custom fees etc., I made my own that worked but not as good, so I had to be careful not to use the actuator (a linear actuator) too hard, as in with the tip of the ski stuffed in a drift or something so the actuator had to work extra hard as it was already working hard against the poorly fitted strut. So I stripped out one linear actuator before I realized what I had a fitting problem on that replacement part. More belt sanding on that aluminum strut to get the fit like it should have been, and a little thought about where and how to use the actuator so it didn't have to drag the entire weight of the plane uphill, and most importantly the correct fusing in the electrical system so that if over stressed the fuse/breaker blows in time to save the actuator. I had it mis wired, twice the amp breaker then I should have, now I have it right. I also use a little Lube-a-Boom spray lube every now and then, the same product I use on my crane's telescoping boom, which also has hard plastic pads sliding in a telescoping tube that work fine when the fit is as it should be! None of this impinges the back country ski ops, more an issue when back at the hangar or leaving the hangar, I got a handle on it now and really like them, but wish they were USA made, sorry you friends to the North! The weight of the Datums isn't in the retraction mechanism, but in the ski itself, so NEEDED, carbon fiber has been talked about but $$$$! Anyway, a good excuse to post a few pics from this winter.

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu213/simkot/IMG_20160101_124845225_HDR_zpsfsowy2ho.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/simkot/media/IMG_20160101_124845225_HDR_zpsfsowy2ho.jpg.html)
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu213/simkot/IMG_20160207_180913_zpsuyjztsmr.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/simkot/media/IMG_20160207_180913_zpsuyjztsmr.jpg.html)http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu213/simkot/1-28-16%20003_zps11tchhl9.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/simkot/media/1-28-16%20003_zps11tchhl9.jpg.html)
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu213/simkot/IMG_20160207_180628_zpsyyazutbj.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/simkot/media/IMG_20160207_180628_zpsyyazutbj.jpg.html)

http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu213/simkot/IMG_20160207_180628_zpsyyazutbj.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/simkot/media/IMG_20160207_180628_zpsyyazutbj.jpg.html)

mam90
05-12-2016, 07:02 AM
Which model Summits do you have?

I have the LSA ski. They also make a 2300.

TcraftF21
05-12-2016, 11:03 AM
I have TrickAir 1500s on my 118HP Tcraft and they work great in deep snow (plus 2 feet) and on hard surface runways. Great product and easy to install.

Jim

cubdriver2
05-12-2016, 11:26 AM
Which model Summits do you have?

I like the Summits, I just don't like the price. We need 5 guys to see if we can get a better deal?

Glenn

Roddy
05-12-2016, 11:37 AM
I like the Summits, I just don't like the price. We need 5 guys to see if we can get a better deal?

Glenn
Nothing new. Anything that I've ever bought that I really liked was always expensive.
You forget about the cost if it works well.
Roddy

40m
05-12-2016, 11:51 AM
I like the Summits, I just don't like the price. We need 5 guys to see if we can get a better deal?

Glenn
Count me in for a pair.

cubdriver2
05-12-2016, 11:55 AM
Nothing new. Anything that I've ever bought that I really liked was always expensive.
You forget about the cost if it works well.
Roddy

Not me, I've gotten away fairly cheap so far.

Glenn

Roddy
05-12-2016, 12:04 PM
Not me, I've gotten away fairly cheap so far.

Glenn
Not likely, lol, if you're flying Airstreaks. They're good but not cheap.

cubdriver2
05-12-2016, 12:10 PM
Not likely, lol, if you're flying Airstreaks. They're good but not cheap.

Your right, I had to pony up $100 bucks each and $66 for a can of bedliner

Hlenn

Douten
05-12-2016, 09:57 PM
Glenn count me in as #6, I'll take the free set :smile:.

TcraftF21
05-13-2016, 07:28 AM
I paid less for my TrickAir's new than they want for Summits. They appear to be a bit tougher too but they do weigh a few pounds more. No difference in airspeed with or without. I think they are back in business again with a new owner.

Jim

Naaalex
05-19-2016, 05:20 AM
Courierguy => I am a bit late answering, but I love your pics !!! Great ! Is this Idaho ?
See below some pics from the French Alps last April :)


This one is above 11k on a glacier called "La FenÍtre du Tour" :

25726

25722

In this glacier there are several great spots :

25721

including that one (called "Le Couvercle") :

25725

Here is La ToviŤre, not very high (7350 ft), available on skis on winter and on wheels during summer :

2572325724

If you come to Europe, you cannot miss this... France is not as GA-Friendly as the US, but we are among the most GA-Friendly countries on this side of the Atlantic, especially for mountain flights ;)

Alexandra

courierguy
05-19-2016, 11:54 AM
It's just starting to warm up over here, but your pictures make me wish for more snow! Leaving tracks....one of the best things about ski flying, when off airport summertime I really miss the ability to take off and look back and easily where and how I got in and out. My pictures are mostly Idaho, most very near my home so real handy, with a little Wyoming thrown in. I'll come to Europe (and Alaska for that matter) when I finally wear out/get bored with my area, the problem is every time I go out to check out a new site, I find two more, and so it goes! Don't see many low wings on skis over here!

I see the caption on your second picture, I'll translate for others that may not know French:: Whoo hoo!!!

This one is one of my summertime sites also, at 8800' so you get an idea of the range's size across the valley in the back.
http://i649.photobucket.com/albums/uu213/simkot/IMG_20160220_190905_zpslizfkeph.jpg (http://s649.photobucket.com/user/simkot/media/IMG_20160220_190905_zpslizfkeph.jpg.html)